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-   -   Is Nintendo the master of Fighting games without complex inputs? (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1407034)

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 05:47 AM

Is Nintendo the master of Fighting games without complex inputs?
 
So I've been a bit hooked on ARMS after deciding to go in on it at the last minute. I was kind of iffy about it on reveal because it seemed like a Fighting game - not a genre I've ever really liked for all the typical noob reasons. Like, Mortal Kombat is cool for its story and content, but was still only able to entice me to learn a few special moves and kind of stumble around with the basics. Something like Street Fighter or more is a lost cause.

I've read the common advice from people on GAF that "actually, fighting games are about spacing and fundamentals, combos aren't that important", but it doesn't really matter much when you go online and get stomped by special moves and combos and you just want to do that too. Memorizing special moves takes more discipline than I'm really willing to put in, which sure, is my own fault - but the dreaded "Move List" being a constant interruption to gameplay just kind of sucks.

And man, I don't want to pick a main. I want to mix it up and try a bunch of these characters and that just means more things to memorize. Let me hop around a bit without the Move List and watching a tutorial online about what a "charge character" is.

So anyway, enough about my hangups with fighting games. ARMS though - isn't this a perfect fit for the sort of "fundamentals" fighting games are about? Your attacks boiled down to literally two buttons, left and right punch (dude, don't get started on how unintuitive "light/medium/heavy punch/kick/etc." are on most controllers and what those even mean in gameplay), and the game being all about blocking, jumping, dashing - ie. footsies, and your offence game being all about aiming and timing your basic attacks mixed in with grabs & charged punches. It's beauty in simplicity. Every character plays the same* on a basic level with only some in your face different traits, so you can jump characters and still have the fundamentals down. The real complexity comes from the different types of ARMS weapons, and they still just come down to the same two button control scheme with variations in aiming and charging.

Like, as I improve I'm understanding it's all about positioning and timing - worrying about the execution of input is not a thing in this game. So why do fighting games do this? Is the "special move" an anti-pattern that's just too ingrained in the industry? Is there an advantage to the arcane invocations I'm not thinking of? Like cheat codes you need to memorize and execute in gameplay, they just don't usually have intuitive meaning beyond "well, I guess a quarter circle is kind of like pulling back your hands?".

Obviously to go along with the title, the Super Smash Bros. series is similarly intuitive in a way most fighting games aren't, with its two attack buttons mostly based on what direction you want to attack in. Switching characters is no headache. It's again more about positioning and timing than execution of input (though still a bit more traditional than ARMS in this sense).

So who else does games like this? Am I being a Nintendo fanboy here? What other attempts have been made at (sort of) traditional Fighting games that ignore the requirement of "special move" inputs?

*Helix probably messes with this a bit tbh

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 05:50 AM

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8[/url]

Melee is the most mechanical fighter in the world, with each character having a stupid amount of specific tech and inputs.
Matchups also matter a ton, with lots to learn.

So nah, based on smash alone (4 is very technical too with different character things), I'd argue no.

Leafhopper 07-17-2017 05:51 AM

I feel like Rising Thunder would have been a good contender of that before Riot came and clubbed them to death.

[quote] Switching characters is no headache.[/quote]

And in other games this is a headache? Not sure what you mean by this.

SalvaPot 07-17-2017 05:53 AM

[QUOTE=Soulflarz;243672070][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8[/url]

Melee is the most mechanical fighter in the world, with each character having a stupid amount of specific tech and inputs.
Matchups also matter a ton, with lots to learn.

So nah, based on smash alone (4 is very technical too with different character things), I'd argue no.[/QUOTE]

I feel you missed the point of the OP.

xValentine 07-17-2017 05:54 AM

No.

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 05:54 AM

[QUOTE=Soulflarz;243672070][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8[/url]

Melee is the most mechanical fighter in the world, with each character having a stupid amount of specific tech and inputs.
Matchups also matter a ton, with lots to learn.

So nah, based on smash alone (4 is very technical too with different character things), I'd argue no.[/QUOTE]

Obviously I understand there's depth to it, but I'm talking about the game introducing you to and making the basics feel easy. Street Fighter is not good at this. Mortal Kombat is not good at this. I will jump kick and button mash, because what even is a light punch vs. a low kick? I understand hitting in a direction or timing my moves. In a traditional fighting game, the movements feel random sometimes unless I read the move list.

[QUOTE=Leafhopper;243672222]I feel like Rising Thunder would have been a good contender of that before Riot came and clubbed them to death.



And in other games this is a headache?[/QUOTE]


Yes, like I said, having to memorize different inputs for special moves is an immediate impediment. Otherwise it's hard to understand why the characters are different.

traveler 07-17-2017 05:57 AM

If only because the rest of the genre seems content to let input be a barrier/part of the skill gap for some reason, yes.

Porcile 07-17-2017 05:58 AM

I certainly enjoy Nintendo developed fighting games more than typical 2D fighters. Not to say there aren't plenty of fighting games out there which don't emphasise combos.

Personally I always liked Samurai Shodown 1 and 2 because of the emphasis on timing and using the right move at the right time, rather than flashy combos.

[QUOTE=xValentine;243672400]No.[/QUOTE]

Wow. Fascinating response. Really insightful.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 05:58 AM

ah, solely on basics? Well, that depends what you find basic then.

I mean I largely learned blazbue without being 'good' at blazblue, entirely ignoring in depth mechanics, because the basic 4 buttons + block + grab made a ton of sense to me.


Basics is really awkwardly subjective and I'd argue that ASW does it best in persona or blazblue (GG? No)


Like you can argue smash is understandable at a basic level but on the same floor any fighting game is- you understand one button punches or does a specific thing and don't really go much past it.

Izuna 07-17-2017 05:58 AM

If Melee is the example here, definitely not.

arturo2666 07-17-2017 06:00 AM

[IMG]https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gamingdatabase/images/e/ea/Divekick_Logo.png/revision/latest?cb=20130428185749[/IMG]

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:00 AM

[QUOTE=Soulflarz;243672676]ah, solely on basics? Well, that depends what you find basic then.

I mean I largely learned blazbue without being 'good' at blazblue, entirely ignoring in depth mechanics, because the basic 4 buttons + block + grab made a ton of sense to me.


Basics is really awkwardly subjective and I'd argue that ASW does it best in persona or blazblue (GG? No)[/QUOTE]

"basic 4 buttons"

but what are those 4 buttons? What do they do in relation to everything else? It's just so abstract. In ARMS, I punch left, or I punch right. In Smash Bros., I attack to my left, or I attack to my right, or I attack while running, or attack in the air while facing right. It all makes sense. What does each of those 4 buttons do that's unique from each other in a standing position and is it easy to remember and is it the same between characters?

[QUOTE=Izuna;243672684]If Melee is the example here, definitely not.[/QUOTE]

Well you know I wrote a whole post on the examples.

Again, obviously these games have depth, and that's actually more impressive when paired with my praise of their easy basics.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:03 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243672874]"basic 4 buttons"

but what are those 4 buttons? What do they do in relation to everything else? It's just so abstract. In ARMS, I punch left, or I punch right. In Smash Bros., I attack to my left, or I attack to my right, or I attack while running, or attack in the air while facing right. It all makes sense. What does each of those 4 buttons do that's unique from each other in a standing position and is it easy to remember and is it the same between characters?[/QUOTE]

I mean again if your definition is that narrow it basically leaves it down to nintendos style, yes. However, I find a weak/medium/heavy/special button to be just as easy as light/heavy/smash attack system.

I'd give it to ASW, but to each their own :P

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:04 AM

[QUOTE=arturo2666;243672840][IMG]https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gamingdatabase/images/e/ea/Divekick_Logo.png/revision/latest?cb=20130428185749[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This game is the most similar example but the character specific abilities seem to ironically make it really hard to grasp. And it feels more like a quick joke game than a legit effort if you don't want to learn those depths.

Jangowuzhere 07-17-2017 06:05 AM

I wish Rising Thunder was still alive....

SatoAilDarko 07-17-2017 06:06 AM

Two fighting games doesn't make you a master of fighting games with non-complex inputs.

I feel you need at least three different ones to gain such a title.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:06 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243673255]This game is the most similar example but the character specific abilities seem to ironically make it really hard to grasp. And it feels more like a quick joke game than a legit effort if you don't want to learn those depths.[/QUOTE]

Okay nope divekick is easier to understand than smash, if you're actually arguing character specifics causing confusion than how the hell is smash even in this talk.

Leafhopper 07-17-2017 06:06 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243673255]This game is the most similar example but the character specific abilities seem to ironically make it really hard to grasp. And it feels more like a quick joke game than a legit effort if you don't want to learn those depths.[/QUOTE]

...Divekick teaches you actual fighting game fundamentals in an easy to understand way. Is this a joke post? It has[B] 2 [/B]buttons

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:06 AM

[QUOTE=SatoAilDarko;243673392]Two fighting games doesn't make you a master of fighting games with non-complex inputs.

I feel you need at least three different ones to gain such a title.[/QUOTE]

Well when it's two vs. zero, it might work. No one's got any good examples so far except maybe Divekick.

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:08 AM

[QUOTE=Soulflarz;243673432]Okay nope divekick is easier to understand than smash, if you're actually arguing character specifics causing confusion than how the hell is smash even in this talk.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Leafhopper;243673452]...Divekick teaches you actual fighting game fundamentals in an easy to understand way. Is this a joke post? It has[B] 2 [/B]buttons[/QUOTE]

I'm not legit ripping on Divekick, it does fit my sort of example. The vibe of it probably put me off in a way that ARMS doesn't so I don't really have a strong opinion of if it does it well or not, really. Just a surface level opinion.

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:11 AM

You know what another great example is? Nidhogg. Getting a bit out there, but in the sense of it being a 1v1 focused on out maneuvering the opponent with your attacks, it has a similar feel to a Fighting game. I'd imagine if you constrained it to the sudden death mode and maybe implemented a health bar you could squeeze some depth out of those mechanics, which don't require "special move" inputs.

atr0cious 07-17-2017 06:12 AM

I think so. I have a couple friends who are not necessarily into fighting games and they're currently terrorizing me in ARMS. Nintendo understands mechanics and maintaining conceptual philosophies to break them down and reform them for their audience. Pikmin does the samething for RTSes.

abstract alien 07-17-2017 06:14 AM

[QUOTE=arturo2666;243672840][IMG]https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gamingdatabase/images/e/ea/Divekick_Logo.png/revision/latest?cb=20130428185749[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Not even remotely comparable, in my opinion. Smash and Arms do SO much more than this does, despite it being s decent enough time waste type of title.

Izuna 07-17-2017 06:15 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243672874]Well you know I wrote a whole post on the examples.

Again, obviously these games have depth, and that's actually more impressive when paired with my praise of their easy basics.[/QUOTE]

Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"

TheDanimal 07-17-2017 06:15 AM

If you generalize this to outside fighting games, I'd be partial to agreeing with you.
Arms is a simplification of the fighting genre with a twist.
As an above post says, Pikmin is a simplification of RTSes.
Splatoon is kind of a simplification of shooters.
Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi are simplifications of the RPG genre.
Etc, etc, I'm sure there are more examples.

tenderbrew 07-17-2017 06:16 AM

Pokken too is like this. I agree. I just can't play standard input fighters. I'm so bad at combos that even if I know them I can rarely pull them off.

Izuna 07-17-2017 06:16 AM

How is Splatoon a simplification over Shooters which are as simple as shoot the other guy... Splatoon has an objective mode as its main.

This thread is confusing me.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:17 AM

[QUOTE=Izuna;243674283]Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"[/QUOTE]

This is a much better worded version of my post.

Party level melee doesn't really work as intuitively as you'd hope. Everyone just special attack/smash attack spams and never touches anything else largely, A is used for smash attack spamming and that's about it, if the C stick is broken.

Aaronrules380 07-17-2017 06:17 AM

[QUOTE=Izuna;243674283]Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"[/QUOTE]

Uh, but smash's button set is literally A is normal attacks, B is specials, x/y is jump and triggers are guard with other trigger as grab. Use directions to do different variations of these

Leafhopper 07-17-2017 06:19 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243673849]You know what another great example is? Nidhogg. Getting a bit out there, but in the sense of it being a 1v1 focused on out maneuvering the opponent with your attacks, it has a similar feel to a Fighting game. I'd imagine if you constrained it to the sudden death mode and maybe implemented a health bar you could squeeze some depth out of those mechanics, which don't require "special move" inputs.[/QUOTE]

I thought this thread was about Nintendo games without "complex" inputs?

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:20 AM

[QUOTE=Izuna;243674283]Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"[/QUOTE]

But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the button combos needed for special moves and combos.

Guarding in Smash Bros. is "hold the shield button to shield on the spot, roll around if you want to get away, do it in the air if you get hit in the air". Not sure why that's hard to explain? Guarding in most fighting games, you have no room to breath so I have no idea what the expected follow up is, vs. in Smash the easy explanation is "get away".

[QUOTE=tenderbrew;243674371]Pokken too is like this. I agree. I just can't play standard input fighters. I'm so bad at combos that even if I know them I can rarely pull them off.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't Pokken have complicated special move inputs? That's what I assumed. It seemed kind of similarly abstract as most fighting games from trailers I saw.

TheDanimal 07-17-2017 06:21 AM

[QUOTE=Izuna;243674427]How is Splatoon a simplification over Shooters which are as simple as shoot the other guy... Splatoon has an objective mode as its main.

This thread is confusing me.[/QUOTE]
I was making a stretch hahaha.
The more I think about it, the more I think that splatoon was a bad example.

Toxi 07-17-2017 06:22 AM

Feels like a narrow superlative.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:23 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243674746]But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the cheat codes needed for special moves and combos.

Guarding in Smash Bros. is "hold the shield button to shield on the spot, roll around if you want to get away, do it in the air if you get hit in the air". Not sure why that's hard to explain? Guarding in most fighting games, you have no room to breath so I have no idea what the expected follow up is, vs. in Smash the easy explanation is "get away".[/QUOTE]

Because this isn't how low level smash is played at all. Smash at 'low level' is largely spamming special attacks and smash attacks with 0 jabs or such, which kind of defeats the purpose of everything else.
In the time it takes to properly explain how to use shield, roll, airdodge, etc in any mechanical sense that makes them viable options instead of "throw out an aerial as they get close", I could've taught you many combos in a fighter.

(Also smash has combos with way more nuance than fighters but whatever)

FallingEdge 07-17-2017 06:23 AM

Has Nintendo even made a fighting game?

Leafhopper 07-17-2017 06:23 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243674746]But what do punch and kick do? Like what does punch and kick mean in gameplay, what do they do in relation to each other? It just seems like they're fodder for the cheat codes needed for special moves and combos.
[/QUOTE]

...

Quebaz 07-17-2017 06:23 AM

Gundam Versus is 4 buttons with a bunch of macros, nothing too complicated there either.

LordKasual 07-17-2017 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243671851]I don't like learning things

does nintendo make the best fighting games where you don't have to learn things?[/QUOTE]


what is this thread even about

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:25 AM

[QUOTE=Soulflarz;243674527]This is a much better worded version of my post.

Party level melee doesn't really work as intuitively as you'd hope. Everyone just special attack/smash attack spams and never touches anything else largely, A is used for smash attack spamming and that's about it, if the C stick is broken.[/QUOTE]

But see you understand what all that does. If I do Party level BlazBlue or whatever, we'll all be mashing every button all the time because it produces the most chaotic noise in a small space and none of the difference between "light/medium/heavy" makes any sense without knowledge vs. "am I attacking the right direction with a powerful (Smash) or fast (normal) attack? good". Smash Bros. reduces the amount you have to know, what does "A" do, and does "B" do? Do those at the times that seem right. If it had a third button, it would quickly become the same as the other games.

Actually, PlayStation All-Stars is similar, with three buttons for moves. From what I gathered, Square was usually close range moves, Triangle longer range moves, and Circle was like... random stuff? It just wasn't intuitive, buttons seem to do random things.

[QUOTE=Leafhopper;243674658]I thought this thread was about Nintendo games without "complex" inputs?[/QUOTE]

In my post I asked if there was anyone else doing similar, and not many people have obliged. I'm helping out myself here.

tenderbrew 07-17-2017 06:26 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243674746]Doesn't Pokken have complicated special move inputs? That's what I assumed. It seemed kind of similarly abstract as most fighting games from trailers I saw.[/QUOTE]

No not at all. It's two attack buttons and L+R for your special. The phase switching adds depth but definitely isn't confusing once you play your first round.

Codeblue 07-17-2017 06:26 AM

[QUOTE=FallingEdge;243674967]Has Nintendo even made a fighting game?[/QUOTE]

2nd and 3rd most popular games at the world's biggest fighting game tournament.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:27 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243675160]But see you understand what all that does. If I do Party level BlazBlue or whatever, we'll all be mashing every button all the time because it produces the most chaotic noise in a small space and none of the difference between "light/medium/heavy" makes any sense without knowledge vs. "am I attacking the right direction with a powerful (Smash) or fast (normal) attack? good". Smash Bros. reduces the amount you have to know, what does "A" do, and does "B" do? Do those at the times that seem right. If it had a third button, it would quickly become the same as the other games.[/QUOTE]

This literally goes both ways, since your attacks always go towards the opponent, you don't even need to think about it. It's also a gross simplification of how smash even works.

Also teaching someone A->B->C->D is a true combo for basically the entire cast isn't very mashy vs random attacks.

RecRoulette 07-17-2017 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=Izuna;243674283]Even on a very basic level. DoA or VF is far easier to actually play than a game that has a bunch of pickups and a very complicated way to guard etc.

Explaining how stuff works in Smash is far harder for the most basic level than "this is punch, this is kick, this is guard"[/QUOTE]

This.

Leafhopper 07-17-2017 06:29 AM

Okay at this point OP you are mixing up fighting game fundamentals with special direction input motions.

You understand the fundamentals in ARMS.

That's about all I understand.

timetokill 07-17-2017 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=FallingEdge;243674967]Has Nintendo even made a fighting game?[/QUOTE]

Yeah some of the best-selling fighting games ever actually

LordKasual 07-17-2017 06:29 AM

[QUOTE=Stopdoor;243675160]But see you understand what all that does. If I do Party level BlazBlue or whatever, we'll all be mashing every button all the time because it produces the most chaotic noise in a small space and none of the difference between "light/medium/heavy" makes any sense without knowledge vs. "am I attacking the right direction with a powerful (Smash) or fast (normal) attack? good". Smash Bros. reduces the amount you have to know, what does "A" do, and does "B" do? Do those at the times that seem right. If it had a third button, it would quickly become the same as the other games.
[/QUOTE]

I don't really understand what people are saying when they say this

Tekken is like the most mechanically dense fighting game out right now, and 99% of its inputs are literally 1-2 buttons + a single direction

Smash Bros has simple inputs but is just all over the place when it comes to actual mechanics. The game isn't as tightly built as these other fighters, so the majority of being good at the game is just learning all the meta techniques that work as a consequence


You can feel "GOOD" at any fighting game by mashing, as long as you're playing against other people who mash.

You will NEVER play a fighting game online, where people mash buttons aimlessly without knowing the deeper mechanics, and actually feel like you're good. That isn't how the genre works, and if it DOES work that way, then you're playing a shitty game.

[QUOTE=timetokill;243675462]Yeah some of the best-selling fighting games ever actually[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Codeblue;243675219]2nd and 3rd most popular games at the world's biggest fighting game tournament.[/QUOTE]
The answer is no

The closest they've ever come is 64/Melee, but they've since been running away from that stigma as hard as they could.

Brawl's competitive scene imploded. All the top players who play Smash 4 basically hate the game.

The reason its popular is the same reason Street Fighter is popular. People will always enjoy playing it because of what it is lol

Stopdoor 07-17-2017 06:29 AM

Honestly you guys are way too hung up on Smash Bros. anyway, most of my example was about ARMS - Smash Bros. is more traditional and has some of the things I complain about, just not to the same level.

People who try to sell noobs on fighting games often talk about the importance of fundamentals and spacing and timing, and ARMS makes that its bread and butter and cuts out the input barrier for special moves.

Sure, I like my Nintendo games, but I literally asked in the post if anyone's done anything similarly. Dead or Alive or BlazBlue just are not doing the same thing. Something like Nidhogg is also on a different level than those.

exfatal 07-17-2017 06:32 AM

Smash
Arms
Pokken
Yeah all are alot simpler inputs then other games thats for sure, They need to make a 3d Zelda fighting game or license one out.

watershed 07-17-2017 06:32 AM

I think it has to do with Nintendo's focus on accessibility. Smash is almost a party game before it is a fighting game. Punchout (although we haven't had one in a while) gets hard as hell but starts off easy and is much more a pattern/puzzle game than a boxing sim. ARMS is a long distance boxing game and the motion controls and longer reaction time between punches helps accessibility.

Soulflarz 07-17-2017 06:33 AM

To which we all say that we find that a game with 4 very basic buttons is extremely easy to understand when they have no directional input required?


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