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-   -   Bioware bans SW:TOR player over internet meme (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459791)

Morn 01-22-2012 04:30 PM

[QUOTE=Nessus;34471603]At this point I feel like there should be a big warning sign when you try to log in to the forums:

"If you say something we don't like on these forums we will permanently ban you from playing the game you paid for. Really, you probably just shouldn't use these forums at all."[/QUOTE]

WoW works the same way. Just about every MMO does.

Morn 01-22-2012 04:31 PM

[QUOTE=Dr Eggman;34471772]Oh c'mon, you're exaggerating this. The user can quickly dispute he/she's not 12, rather than permanently banning them.[/QUOTE]

As people have said elsewhere in this thread, he could have done that. He could have disputed it, but instead he acted like a 12 year old and cried about it on the internet.

Eggman 01-22-2012 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=Morn;34471799]As people have said elsewhere in this thread, he could have done that. He could have disputed it, but instead he acted like a 12 year old and cried about it on the internet.[/QUOTE]

I guess he prefers the bad publicity for Bioware.

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 04:34 PM

[QUOTE=gatti-man;34471732]So they have to be internet nannies? Ban was justified. People need to learn they are responsible for what they say even on the internet.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that this is not a question of responsability. He didn't make a half-assed racist joke, neither a joke that implies aggression. He just made a joke that implies something along the lines of "Wat?". Moreso when they explicitly tell you to never give away your details. I could say my name is Andy on the forums and my account should not be cancelled because i'm not the name that figures in the account details, when accounts can't be shared.

He didn't cry afaik. He doesn't care about his sub because it's expired, and he really does not care about the game at all. But he found it funny and shared. And it's true: It's funny.

By the way, i'm just talking about the manners. If I was the one who got that message i'd be pissed because they assumed stuff and proceeded to cancel me out without even trying to engage communication.

Eggman 01-22-2012 04:36 PM

Also, the person who banned him wasn't very bright. Who would announce their age followed by "what is this?". It's just a random, out of context phrase that could've been investigated more.

TheChewyWaffles 01-22-2012 04:36 PM

[QUOTE=Morn;34471780]WoW works the same way. Just about every MMO does.[/QUOTE]

Bans from forums do not keep you from playing WoW.

Emitan 01-22-2012 04:43 PM

[QUOTE=RandomVince;34469095]Stupid analogy.

Ban him from the forum, but not the game. And if they are going to ban him from the game, they owe him a refund of the RRP.[/QUOTE]

What's the logic in this? It is just as illegal for him to be on the forums as it is to be playing the game. It makes no sense for them to only ban him from one.

Remfin 01-22-2012 04:43 PM

[QUOTE=BigNastyCurve;34471857]Bans from forums do not keep you from playing WoW.[/QUOTE]Bans for being underage do.

Kinyou 01-22-2012 04:50 PM

[QUOTE=gatti-man;34471732]So they have to be internet nannies? Ban was justified. People need to learn they are responsible for what they say even on the internet.[/QUOTE]
I bet it's overall a lot more trouble for the support to get on this case and to find a way to verify his actual age (which would have happened if he'd care about his account) then to "nanny" a little and give him a warning instead of a instant-ban.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 04:51 PM

[QUOTE=Dr Eggman;34471849]Also, the person who banned him wasn't very bright. Who would announce their age followed by "what is this?". It's just a random, out of context phrase that could've been investigated more.[/QUOTE]

well, at least one twelve year old apparently did.

i'd never heard of this meme. lots of the posters in this thread had never heard of this meme. if you suspect that someone is under 13 you can't allow them to use your service while you investigate it, because if they ARE under 13 you'd be breaking the law.

all the guy likely had to do was provide proof of age. he didn't.

i'm sure Bioware would love to be able to let kids under 13 play TOR. it isn't in their interests to ban a subscriber for completely pointless frivolous reasons. they may have done so in the past, but doing it here was not such a case.

you can say 'he should have known it was a joke!' all you like. the moderator didn't know it was a joke, and therefore had no choice other than to ban the guy.

[spoiler]i don't give two shits about Bioware and have never bought any of their games. i would find it hilarious if TOR is a spectacular failure.[/spoiler]

Jaffaboy 01-22-2012 04:55 PM

I think I'm one of the only few that likes this meme, it's not as run into the ground as most others, or at least in my experience it hasn't been. That said, Bioware's reaction is priceless and another example of why you should never post on heavily monitored official forums!

Anteater 01-22-2012 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=VALIS;34463494]Now if only the rest of the internet would follow suit on banning people who spread godawful 4chan memes.[/QUOTE]

They're just jokes popularized by different people, I'm sure you've used them before in jest even though they're not from the same origin:

[QUOTE=VALIS;30358960]Come at me, [strike]bro[/strike] Moby Dick.

(yes, it's fantastic.)[/QUOTE]

i-Lo 01-22-2012 04:59 PM

Hypothetically, if the user contacts Bioware about the ban and can provide sufficient evidence that he is over 15 then without having to defend himself for using a meme, wouldn't his account should be unbanned?

Eggman 01-22-2012 05:02 PM

[QUOTE=plagiarize;34472149]well, at least one twelve year old apparently did.

i'd never heard of this meme. lots of the posters in this thread had never heard of this meme. if you suspect that someone is under 13 you can't allow them to use your service while you investigate it, because if they ARE under 13 you'd be breaking the law.

all the guy likely had to do was provide proof of age. he didn't.

i'm sure Bioware would love to be able to let kids under 13 play TOR. it isn't in their interests to ban a subscriber for completely pointless frivolous reasons. they may have done so in the past, but doing it here was not such a case.

you can say 'he should have known it was a joke!' all you like. the moderator didn't know it was a joke, and therefore had no choice other than to ban the guy.

[spoiler]i don't give two shits about Bioware and have never bought any of their games. i would find it hilarious if TOR is a spectacular failure.[/spoiler][/QUOTE]
Yeah so he should immediately take the extreme route and permanently ban him, right? It's not a very coherent sentence standalone (depending on the thread of course) so there was no reason for any 12 year old to blurt their age out. The moderator's could have taken a more cautious approach rather than relying on intuition that ended up harming them.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:06 PM

[QUOTE=Dr Eggman;34472368]Yeah so he should immediately take the extreme route and permanently ban him, right? It's not a very coherent sentence standalone (depending on the thread of course) so there was no reason for any 12 year old to blurt their age out. The moderator's could have taken a more cautious approach rather than relying on intuition that ended up harming them.[/QUOTE]
extreme or not, it's the safest option at that point.

if you are doing something, and you suspect that what you are doing is illegal, you should stop doing it right away. you shouldn't keep doing it until you can verify if it is illegal or not.

lets say the kid [I]was[/I] under 13, and this came to light... do you think it would go down well in the courts that EA continued to keep records on him while they waited for proof he wasn't under 13?

the moderator believed the kid WAS under 13. whether he should have or shouldn't have has got nothing to do with the fact that he held that belief.

Jim E. Rossler 01-22-2012 05:09 PM

In the us you have to be 13 to register on a forum iirc
Its actual law passed to protect youths, its the reason all the forums use 13 and never a year younger or
They'd be in big trouble if a 12yr old was on their forum and they didn't do anything about it because they thought it was a meme

Castor Krieg 01-22-2012 05:10 PM

[QUOTE=slopeslider;34472502]In the us you have to be 13 to register on a forum iirc
Its actual law passed to protect youths, its the reason all the forums use 13 and never a year younger or older
They'd very in big trouble if a 12yr old was on their forum and they didn't drop anything about out because they thought it was a meme[/QUOTE]

Technically he is 13 by agreeing to the ToS of the game, as well as registering on the forum. All that follows later is CS representative deliberations. I don't understand why they make a law, and then choose not to follow it.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:11 PM

[QUOTE=Castor Krieg;34472526]Technically he is 13 by agreeing to the ToS of the game, as well as registering on the forum. All that follows later is CS representative deliberations.[/QUOTE]

*boggle*

so you can't lie when you agree to a TOS but you can lie on a forum? how does that work?

Castor Krieg 01-22-2012 05:13 PM

[QUOTE=plagiarize;34472550]*boggle*

so you can't lie when you agree to a TOS but you can lie on a forum? how does that work?[/QUOTE]

You can on both counts, explain to me why he is lying in the first case, and not the second?

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 05:13 PM

[QUOTE=plagiarize;34472550]*boggle*

so you can't lie when you agree to a TOS but you can lie on a forum? how does that work?[/QUOTE]

The contract is the important thing. Can you imagine, for example.... missing a 2 for a 3? Well, this means permaban. It would be as easy as missing f12 for f13. The consideration of a typo is plausible enough.

Eggman 01-22-2012 05:15 PM

[QUOTE=plagiarize;34472447]
lets say the kid [I]was[/I] under 13, and this came to light... do you think it would go down well in the courts that EA continued to keep records on him while they waited for proof he wasn't under 13?

[/QUOTE]
He's not the first or the last person that did such a thing. They could've found out his age comfortably, with no hassle. They could've also temporarily banned him if they [I]had[/I] to take that route.

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:16 PM

[QUOTE=Castor Krieg;34472621]You can on both counts, explain to me why he is lying in the first case, and not the second?[/QUOTE]

Because he says he's 13 when registering (because you must say so to register) and then later claims to be 12. Which would imply that he said he was 13 only to register and when unconstrained by a registration system he is actually 12 because he freely admits he's 12.

PairOfFilthySocks 01-22-2012 05:17 PM

And the decision not to trust EA with my digitally downloaded games becomes ever easier.

Stallion Free 01-22-2012 05:19 PM

Wait are people actually siding on EA with this?

It's hard to tell if people are actually serious.

NullPointer 01-22-2012 05:19 PM

[QUOTE=Dr Eggman;34472368]Yeah so he should immediately take the extreme route and [B]permanently [/B]ban him, right? It's not a very coherent sentence standalone (depending on the thread of course) so there was no reason for any 12 year old to blurt their age out. The moderator's could have taken a more cautious approach rather than relying on intuition that ended up harming them.[/QUOTE]
One thing I'm not getting is this sense of permanence. Can't bans be undone by clicking a button and hitting enter? Is it really an involved process?

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:21 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34472760]Wait are people actually siding on EA with this?

It's hard to tell if people are actually serious.[/QUOTE]

It's strange for a company to follow federal law?

PataHikari 01-22-2012 05:21 PM

[QUOTE=Morn;34471799]As people have said elsewhere in this thread, he could have done that. He could have disputed it, but instead he acted like a 12 year old and cried about it on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Except that going public makes it more likely that A) Bioware fill fix their retarded mistake and B) Bioware will try and make it so that they don't make the same retarded mistake again.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:24 PM

[QUOTE=Castor Krieg;34472621]You can on both counts, explain to me why he is lying in the first case, and not the second?[/QUOTE]

i don't have to. the point is whether or not it's fair to suspect he isn't 13. if he posts on the forum 'i am 12' and you are unaware of the meme (as many of us in this theread were) it IS reasonable to suspect that he isn't 13. that he claimed to be 13 when he signed the TOC doesn't make it unreasonable to ever suspect otherwise.

thats the point at which you have to ban him, imho... because if he turned out to be under thirteen and you'd continued keeping information on him even when you suspected he was younger than than thirteen, well, you'd be screwed in court.

so you ban him, tell him why, and presumably if he isn't under thirteen he'll let you know and provide evidence, and this 'permanent' ban would be undone.

some people say 'permanent' i say 'indefinate'.

Stallion Free 01-22-2012 05:24 PM

[QUOTE=Billychu;34472796]It's strange for a company to follow federal law?[/QUOTE]

It wouldn't be if it wasn't a forum post being discussed.

DR2K 01-22-2012 05:25 PM

We post in a forum where users are banned for using specific memes. . . Although Evilore can't take my gaf shirt privilege away.

Eggman 01-22-2012 05:25 PM

[QUOTE=NullPointer;34472765]One thing I'm not getting is this sense of permanence. Can't bans be undone by clicking a button and hitting enter? Is it really an involved process?[/QUOTE]

Depends on the policy really. A temporary ban can cause less of an outcry by the user. Some forums won't even consider overturning permanent bans as they obstinately stick to their initial decision. Reminds me of the permabanned XBL profile that had their location as "Fort Gay" which is an actual location.

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 05:26 PM

In fact, the ban could be of 1 year, mathwise. This is all implying that the moderator did not really know about the meme... thing i'm not really sure of.

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:27 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34472878]It wouldn't be if it wasn't a forum post being discussed.[/QUOTE]

The guy says something that will get EA fine for thousands of dollars and you expect them to do nothing?

Stallion Free 01-22-2012 05:28 PM

[QUOTE=Billychu;34472927]The guy says something that will get EA fine for thousands of dollars and you expect them to do nothing?[/QUOTE]

I expect them to investigate before being made to look like complete idiots on the internet.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:29 PM

[QUOTE=blitzcloud;34472916]In fact, the ban could be of 1 year, mathwise. This is all implying that the moderator did not really know about the meme... thing i'm not really sure of.[/QUOTE]
do you believe me that i didn't know about the meme? do you believe the other people in this thread saying they didn't know about the meme?

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:29 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34472947]I expect them to investigate before being made to look like complete idiots on the internet.[/QUOTE]

If they investigate without banning him first, they're in just as much trouble. They cannot keep information on him if they suspect he is underage. They [i]have[/i] to handle it in this manner.

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:31 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34472947]I expect them to investigate before being made to look like complete idiots on the internet.[/QUOTE]
so you expect them to risk continuing to break the law even as they suspect that they already have been until they can confirm whether or not they actually were?

that's just not logical. they suspect they've been breaking the law, they have to stop doing the thing that might be illegal right there and then, so that if it ever comes to court they'll have a defence.

Stallion Free 01-22-2012 05:32 PM

[QUOTE=Billychu;34472974]If they investigate without banning him first, they're in just as much trouble. They cannot keep information on him if they suspect he is underage. They [i]have[/i] to handle it in this manner.[/QUOTE]

So when people use *that* phrase on youtube comments or any other place on the internet that has an age check/EULA agreement or whatever, those accounts are automatically banned?

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:33 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34473036]So when people use *that* phrase on youtube comments or any other place on the internet that has an age check/EULA agreement or whatever, those accounts are automatically banned?[/QUOTE]

If they were reported, maybe. Are you suggesting Youtube and the SWTOR forums have even remotely similar volumes of posts?

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 05:34 PM

[QUOTE=plagiarize;34473010]so you expect them to risk continuing to break the law even as they suspect that they already have been until they can confirm whether or not they actually were?.[/QUOTE]

They haven't been the ones to break the law. The end-user did. And they can't monitor every single message on the forums, that's also true.

No, plagiarize. I'm just trying to say that I don't quite believe the moderator didn't know. Also I'm trying to say that it could've easily been a typo. And at last, that I dislike the manners they used to handle this.

Stallion Free 01-22-2012 05:34 PM

[QUOTE=Billychu;34473089]If they were reported, maybe. Are you suggesting Youtube and the SWTOR forums have even remotely similar volumes of posts?[/QUOTE]

So the law only applies to user based discussions with a manageable amount of posts?

plagiarize 01-22-2012 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34473036]So when people use *that* phrase on youtube comments or any other place on the internet that has an age check/EULA agreement or whatever, those accounts are automatically banned?[/QUOTE]
the question is simply this:

did the person who banned him suspect he was under thirteen and have reasonable cause to suspect that?

that someone else who knew the meme, or realised it was a joke, wouldn't have taken action, doesn't really come into it. if you believe the moderator in question believed or suspected this posters was under 13 he has to act. his suspicion compels him to, whether it's misplaced or not.

[QUOTE=blitzcloud;34473097]They haven't been the ones to break the law. The end-user did. And they can't monitor every single message on the forums, that's also true.

No, plagiarize. I'm just trying to say that I don't quite believe the moderator didn't know. Also I'm trying to say that it could've easily been a typo. And at last, that I dislike the manners they used to handle this.[/QUOTE]
they would have been breaking the law. it is illegal for EA/Bioware to keep records on people younger than 13. other companies have been fined for breaking that law. that's what they are risking by not acting until they can confirm their suspicions.

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34473103]So the law only applies to user based discussions with a manageable amount of posts?[/QUOTE]
of course not. you put forwards the ridiculous suggestion that everyone posting this meme on youtube should be automatically banned, as if we were defending such a notion. what we're defending is one specific case where the moderator was unaware of a meme and believed a user to be under thirteen. it's his belief that means he must act, and it isn't unfair to think someone is twelve, when they said they were (if you are unaware of the meme). if he had read that post and hadn't suspected the user was under thirteen, he wouldn't have needed to do anything.

moderators are only compelled to act when they suspect a user is younger than thirteen. that other posts that have gone unread, say, aren't acted on, or that other moderators wouldn't have suspected the user was younger than thirteen, isn't really relevant here.

WickedCobra03 01-22-2012 05:39 PM

This is starting to get rediculous. First EA banning people for anoyher person mentioned the now bannes users name, and that giys name who just got memtioned is now banned... And what really gets me is that there are no reprocutions from any higher body and it seems like the users are at the mercy of the companies whims and ridiculous policies.

NullPointer 01-22-2012 05:40 PM

[QUOTE=blitzcloud;34473097]
No, plagiarize. I'm just trying to say that I don't quite believe the moderator didn't know.[/QUOTE]
Fascinating.

Derrick01 01-22-2012 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=TouchMyBox;34471555]The ideal solution to this problem is to not play EA games.[/QUOTE]

The true solution that we'll never learn as a people.

Emitan 01-22-2012 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=Stallion Free;34473103]So the law only applies to user based discussions with a manageable amount of posts?[/QUOTE]

They can't knowingly have info on people below 13. A large website like Youtube can't keep track of every single post, it's just not reasonable.

[QUOTE]100 million people take a social action on YouTube (likes, shares, comments, etc) every week[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/t/press_statistics"]Source[/URL]

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 05:44 PM

[QUOTE=NullPointer;34473269]Fascinating.[/QUOTE] Dunno, it's all very convoluted. A person that sees an out of context sentence, doesn't seem to even take the typo into consideration. It's all veeery strange, or very... automated, kind of.

Wario64 01-22-2012 05:46 PM

I love people saying they should have investigated before banning. Okay...cause that's totally feasible every time someone does something dumb like this

Eggman 01-22-2012 05:49 PM

[QUOTE=Wario64;34473437]I love people saying they should have investigated before banning. Okay...cause that's totally feasible every time someone does something dumb like this[/QUOTE]
Usually these instances aren't ambiguous.

blitzcloud 01-22-2012 05:50 PM

[QUOTE=Wario64;34473437]I love people saying they should have investigated before banning. Okay...cause that's totally feasible every time someone does something dumb like this[/QUOTE]

Hell, even the wording of the message would have been enough to make it less "wrong".

"due to your statement in the forum, we have suspended your account until you can verify your age. We also recommend not to share personal details in the forums and/or games"

That alone is less aggressive than the message he received. And at least to me it sounds like they gave me the benefit of the doubt, even if they have to suspend it.


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