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-   -   Mindblown: Samurai Shodown's mashing minigame determines winner randomly. (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506045)

entrement 12-30-2012 04:55 PM

Mindblown: Samurai Shodown's mashing minigame determines winner randomly.
 
Long time game programmer, Gregg Tavares, dropped a recent gem in the 8-4 play podcast, mentioning that the classic mashing minigame in Samurai Shodown I determines winners randomly.

For those not familiar, there's a mechanic in SS that causes swords to clash. Once the swords are clashed both opponents grind swords, and it was thought that if you mash buttons faster, you would disarm your opponent temporarily.

[IMG]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me5a7bA2Qw1qljt4ro1_250.gif[/IMG]

I played SSI religiously in the arcades and after finding that out just recently, felt cheated. I really mashed those buttons! Sneaky programmers.

Who knows what else we've been deceived on.

meppi 12-30-2012 05:00 PM

Yeah, the best part about this is that the game itself shows you to mash the buttons when that happens, yet it doesn't actually do anything. :)

[IMG]http://i.minus.com/iJiKCqfZoUHnl.png[/IMG]

alexandros 12-30-2012 05:01 PM

Damn, I had no idea. I feel so empty inside :(

feint_ruled 12-30-2012 05:01 PM

How about fruit machines - their entire design strategy is to give the player the illusion of influence were none exists. For example hi/lo style games are rigged to determine success in advance of the player choice, and the result is chosen to match. i.e. if it decides you are going to lose then if you pick low, it goes high - you pick high, it goes low.

[url]http://www.fruit-emu.com/forums/topic/241-uk-independent-article-14-july-fruit-machines-cheat/[/url]

Tashi 12-30-2012 05:02 PM

Even though I've never played the game, that part in the podcast was awesome. Guy is seriously blowing minds left and right.

Zapages 12-30-2012 05:02 PM

feel so sad now... :( SS II (super awesome), III and IV were great games...
V was ok too...

Rogultgot 12-30-2012 05:02 PM

I used to put on the turbo when Boo tried to steal my coins in Mario Party, and it never helped. Never trust a computer game when it comes to button mashing.

onken 12-30-2012 05:02 PM

Why would they do like it that as opposed to the faster masher wins system as suggested?

entrement 12-30-2012 05:05 PM

[QUOTE=onken;45890475]Why would they do like it that as opposed to the faster masher wins system as suggested?[/QUOTE]

It's also an arcade game, they probably didn't want the player to have such a significant advantage over the CPU.

Hargenx 12-30-2012 05:05 PM

Wow, I don't know how to feel right now... LOL

hunnies28 12-30-2012 05:07 PM

All those times....

I never would've known

Smiles and Cries 12-30-2012 05:08 PM

there must be hundreds of examples of this in gaming history I heard the podcast and feel that the guy gave away some major secret seriously he must have Ninjas stalking him now

PhoenixDawn 12-30-2012 05:09 PM

[QUOTE=Rogultgot;45890470]I used to put on the turbo when Boo tried to steal my coins in Mario Party, and it never helped. Never trust a computer game when it comes to button mashing.[/QUOTE]

Haha, one of my childhood friends used to do that as well. It was hilarious seeing him break out the turbo and have it mash a million times a minute just to lose the majority of his coins anyways.

entrement 12-30-2012 05:09 PM

[QUOTE=Smiles and Cries;45890566]there must be hundreds of examples of this in gaming history I heard the podcast and feel that the guy gave away some major secret seriously he must have Ninjas stalking him now[/QUOTE]

I'm no programmer, but would dice roll be easier to program and than a mashing meter?

Sgblues 12-30-2012 05:10 PM

That's interesting, I remembered abusing the blade catch when unarmed in SS2 when I could.


Did it remain random in later games? I don't remember losing those as often.

Metal-Geo 12-30-2012 05:11 PM

One of my first MVS games. Oy vey.

Tizoc 12-30-2012 05:13 PM

...sorry for derailing but it's been on my mind for a while:
SamSho V Special or SamSho 6
Which is the better game?

...and speaking of mashing, wtf is up with with mashing for Yamazki's grab super in the Real Bout games? It's like you gotta have light speed button presses or some shit lol.

entrement 12-30-2012 05:14 PM

[QUOTE=Tizoc;45890676]...sorry for derailing but it's been on my mind for a while:
SamSho V Special or SamSho 6
Which is the better game?

...and speaking of mashing, wtf is up with with mashing for Yamazki's grab super in the Real Bout games? It's like you gotta have light speed button presses or some shit lol.[/QUOTE]

I stopped after SS3, which disappointed me. SS2 will always be king for me.

Dali 12-30-2012 05:15 PM

[QUOTE=entrement;45890606]I'm no programmer, but would dice roll be easier to program and than a mashing meter?[/QUOTE]
With my limited programming experience id say yes... simply because with my limited programming experience even I could write dice roll code.

olimpia84 12-30-2012 05:16 PM

That's messed up. So even if you don't really push anything you could 'win' the duel huh?

bon 12-30-2012 05:17 PM

does this mean SS2 isn't tourney worthy anymore?

meltingparappa 12-30-2012 05:18 PM

This is like finding out about Watergate for the first time, decades after it happened.

My childhood was a lie!

Reminds me of Idle Thumb's revelation that claw games have dip switches that determine frequency of grip strength. A game of pure chance cleverly masquerading as a game of skill.

PetriP-TNT 12-30-2012 05:19 PM

[QUOTE=entrement;45890606]I'm no programmer, but would dice roll be easier to program and than a mashing meter?[/QUOTE]

No not really, but mashing meter vs. CPU would be "as" random as a dice roll anyway.

Randdalf 12-30-2012 05:22 PM

[QUOTE=entrement;45890606]I'm no programmer, but would dice roll be easier to program and than a mashing meter?[/QUOTE]

Yes. You just generate two random numbers and pick the largest. Mashing involves recording player inputs over a length of time as well as having some kind of base AI mash rate... I'd say randomness is a lot easier.

Seraphis Cain 12-30-2012 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=Tizoc;45890676]...sorry for derailing but it's been on my mind for a while:
SamSho V Special or SamSho 6
Which is the better game?

...and speaking of mashing, wtf is up with with mashing for Yamazki's grab super in the Real Bout games? It's like you gotta have light speed button presses or some shit lol.[/QUOTE]

SamSho VI is awesome. I'll always recommend that one over the others. SamSho V Special does have superior artwork, though. I fucking love the win screen/versus portraits in that one.

entrement 12-30-2012 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=olimpia84;45890752]That's messed up. So even if you don't really push anything you could 'win' the duel huh?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

7threst 12-30-2012 05:24 PM

[QUOTE=olimpia84;45890752]That's messed up. So even if you don't really push anything you could 'win' the duel huh?[/QUOTE]

This is what I was wondering. I would imagine there should be at least a certain amount of button presses registered for you to win the duel but it sounds like that's not the case...

Triple Da G.O.D! 12-30-2012 05:34 PM

[QUOTE=Tizoc;45890676]...sorry for derailing but it's been on my mind for a while:
SamSho V Special or SamSho 6
Which is the better game?

...and speaking of mashing, wtf is up with with mashing for Yamazki's grab super in the Real Bout games? It's like you gotta have light speed button presses or some shit lol.[/QUOTE]

0 Special or 6...

0 Special is hard hitting and in your face and I always liked that about it.

6 is a bit lighter on everything but the game has a zillion characters and zillion ways to use said characters.

I play 0 Special a bit more but both are great games so you can't go wrong with either. And fuck Hell Gaoh with a AIDS dick.

And when it comes Yamazaki mash as soon as the super starts to get all the button presses in. Always been the secret with that.

sajj316 12-30-2012 05:39 PM

Why do I feel like a freakin idiot all of a sudden?

Seraphis Cain 12-30-2012 05:39 PM

[QUOTE=ReXXXSoprano;45891139]0 Special or 6...

0 Special is hard hitting and in your face and I always liked that about it.

6 is a bit lighter on everything but the game has a zillion characters and zillion ways to use said characters.

I play 0 Special a bit more but both are great games so you can't go wrong with either. [B]And fuck Hell Gaoh with a AIDS dick.[/B]

And when it comes Yamazaki mash as soon as the super starts to get all the button presses in. Always been the secret with that.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha, man. I remember the first (and so far only) time I beat Hell Gaoh. A friend of mine was watching me play, and when I finally beat him after many, many attempts, we actually went out to eat in celebration because that shit was such an accomplishment. :lol

Skiesofwonder 12-30-2012 05:40 PM

For the whole series? Wow, that is fucked up. I feel like my 90s gaming-self was deceived and cheated!

Dahbomb 12-30-2012 05:40 PM

My mind is blown right now.

Magnus 12-30-2012 05:41 PM

Does mashing buttons really improve damage/hits with super combos in any Capcom/VS fighting game?

Tizoc 12-30-2012 05:43 PM

[QUOTE=ReXXXSoprano;45891139]
6 is a bit lighter on everything but the game has a zillion characters and zillion ways to use said characters.[/QUOTE]
yEAH i know lol, is the SamSho V 'groove' in 6 different to the one in V BTW?
...and maybe you can help, do you know if there's a vid that shows all the supers in SamSho 6?
[QUOTE]And when it comes Yamazaki mash as soon as the super starts to get all the button presses in. Always been the secret with that.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure that's what I always do but it never goes beyond Lvl. 2 lol.

Minion101 12-30-2012 05:44 PM

This is bs. Next you'll be telling me there's a red Hulk.

ezekial45 12-30-2012 05:44 PM

Was this game ever in tournament play?

sniperpon 12-30-2012 05:45 PM

Hah, I knew it! I more or less suspected this through experimentation; I used to play the 3DO port of SamSho regularly back when it came out (and still do play it from time to time), and used to try not pressing anything, pressing the buttons slowly, quickly, etc.-- no behavior seemed to make much or any difference.

What I didn't know was whether the apparent (literal, as it turns out) randomness was just in the 3DO port or not. Apparently not.

danmaku 12-30-2012 05:51 PM

[QUOTE=Dahbomb;45891283]My mind is blown right now.[/QUOTE]

This.

And now I'd like to know if it's the same for King of the Monsters because throws and getting up in that game looked totally random.

SAB CA 12-30-2012 05:52 PM

So, was it the same in King of the Monsters? That button Press graphic was used all over Neo Geo games, lol. No entirely surprised this was random. Didn't the later games actually display your button press number on screen? Been a time since I've played any Samsho that's not 2 (SamSho Anthology is the ONLY SNK PS2 domestic release I don't own...), so I've forgotten...

[B]Edit[/B]: ^^^Haha, looks like we had the same thought...

Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! 12-30-2012 05:52 PM

[QUOTE=danmaku;45891526]This.

And now I'd like to know if it's the same for King of the Monsters because throws and getting up in that game looked totally random.[/QUOTE]

I know the grappling in the pro wrestling game snk made (3 count bout?) was random so it prob was in kotm too

HK-47 12-30-2012 06:08 PM

[QUOTE=Magnus;45891305]Does mashing buttons really improve damage/hits with super combos in any Capcom/VS fighting game?[/QUOTE]

Yes. You can youtube that.

Atolm 12-30-2012 06:13 PM

This is quite obvious if you play at the higher difficulty settings, Level-8 and so on. It doesn't matter how fast you push, you always lose.

jello44 12-30-2012 06:25 PM

[QUOTE=meltingparappa;45890782]
Reminds me of Idle Thumb's revelation that claw games have dip switches that determine frequency of grip strength. A game of pure chance cleverly masquerading as a game of skill.[/QUOTE]

Yup, all those games are like that.

That's why if I see one and feel like taking a chance, I drop 50 cents in it. If I win something, great, if I don't I walk away.

Triple Da G.O.D! 12-30-2012 06:31 PM

[QUOTE=Seraphis Cain;45891270]Hahaha, man. I remember the first (and so far only) time I beat Hell Gaoh. A friend of mine was watching me play, and when I finally beat him after many, many attempts, we actually went out to eat in celebration because that shit was such an accomplishment. :lol[/QUOTE]

Beating him is nothing now. He used to be up there with Omega Rugal & Magaki but he sits with Sissy, Ignis, Clone Zero, Johann, Fernandeath & Goodman when we talk SNK Bosses now.

The fight is very parallel to Shin Bison in Alpha 3 for some reason to me. Except you can never jump or you'll get Hell Rushed to death.

Other than that wait for opening and then kill him.

[quote]Pretty sure that's what I always do but it never goes beyond Lvl. 2 lol.[/quote]

No, I mean as soon as the move starts. During the super flash even depending on the game in question.

[QUOTE=Tizoc;45891343]yEAH i know lol, is the SamSho V 'groove' in 6 different to the one in V BTW?[/quote]

Yeah. And there are 0 & 0 Special Grooves.

[url]http://www.dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Samurai_Shodown_VI[/url]

That should help clear up any questions. Shouts to DC!!!

[quote]...and maybe you can help, do you know if there's a vid that shows all the supers in SamSho 6?[/quote]

There used to be one. But if I find something I'll let you know.

[QUOTE=danmaku;45891526]This.

And now I'd like to know if it's the same for King of the Monsters because throws and getting up in that game looked totally random.[/QUOTE]

To a degree. The game does give some leeway and you even get a couple of freebies. But then the game fucks you over and makes throwing dangerous as all fuck because you'll never win a grapple.

2+2=5 12-30-2012 06:35 PM

I suspected it!

Cosmo Clock 21 12-30-2012 06:37 PM

[QUOTE=Atolm;45892021]This is quite obvious if you play at the higher difficulty settings, Level-8 and so on. It doesn't matter how fast you push, you always lose.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't that be... not obvious, then? Because then in some cases you'd lose if you pressed fast.

alstein 12-30-2012 06:39 PM

[QUOTE=Tizoc;45890676]...sorry for derailing but it's been on my mind for a while:
SamSho V Special or SamSho 6
Which is the better game?

...and speaking of mashing, wtf is up with with mashing for Yamazki's grab super in the Real Bout games? It's like you gotta have light speed button presses or some shit lol.[/QUOTE]

Special- 6 had shit balance, Special was well-balanced.

[QUOTE=Magnus;45891305]Does mashing buttons really improve damage/hits with super combos in any Capcom/VS fighting game?[/QUOTE]

It does in MVC2/UMVC3, but not in MVC3. Capcom added it back in Ultimate for some stupid reason.

Of All Trades 12-30-2012 07:06 PM

[QUOTE=Randdalf;45890856]Yes. You just generate two random numbers and pick the largest. Mashing involves recording player inputs over a length of time as well as having some kind of base AI mash rate... I'd say randomness is a lot easier.[/QUOTE]

While I agree that dice roll would be easier (because I too learned how to do that in my single C++ class) all you'd need is a win/fail state based on input and time, like "player must hit button 10 times in 3 seconds" or whatever parameters desired. You don't need to the AI to do anything at all.

Bomber Bob 12-30-2012 07:11 PM

[QUOTE=onken;45890475]Why would they do like it that as opposed to the faster masher wins system as suggested?[/QUOTE]

prolly because of hardware polling rate was low

Haunted 12-30-2012 07:16 PM

Which one was the fighting game where it was discovered that the first player always gets an advantage? I think it was a fairly recent one.


edit: Mortal Kombat


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