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Will discussion of certain games be banned on Neogaf from here on out?

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terrisus

Member
Disputing the way you frame the debate in no way attacks you, which would be ad hominem, merely the tactic used to debate.

Pointing out a potential fallacy is not hypocritical in any way.

Well, as opposed to actually discussing the content of the post (as others did, leading into discussion throughout this thread), you took issue with the post itself, the purpose of the post, and my intentions when creating the post. That's not conducive to any actual discussion of the matter at hand.
 

duckroll

Member
There have always been games with fanservice. Back in the PSX/Saturn days there were visual novels with nudity allowed on consoles. There's not "more" of it now, you're just seeing it that way because these kinds of games didn't really get localized much in the past.

This isn't true. Even the red label Saturn games did not have nudity. They had sexual scenes, but all the graphics had to be covered up for the console versions. To balance it out and make the console versions have added value, they would add voice to the games when the PC versions didn't have any. The lack of outright nudity also allowed them to get better known voice casts who wouldn't work on "porn games".
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
No, the topic is about if this is about specifically this type of game or a policy of governing games. Fear of a lack of policy is pretty much the gist of it. I think most(I hope) are fine with not pandering games that fetishize the bodies of perceptional underage kids; they would just like policy to follow with it in fear of precedent. The issue, I think, is obviously clear no underage fetish games, but people like "rules" when it comes to knowing what will be off limits and what isnt, since pedophilia isn't the only offensive thing out there.

I don't so much care about "offensive" since different things offend different people. If we couldn't talk about potentially offensive things we couldn't have any conversation at all.

I'm not sure that "offensive" is the right adjective for this game. It's somehow something worse than offensive.
 
Don't get me wrong, if this is the mod staff's stance, I'm fine with it (as I said before). Just throwing out my opinion. I understand you guys' side of the argument.

Right. I'm just trying to make it painstakingly clear that a lot of suggestions on "how to keep threads on track" ignore that this kind of activity takes a not-insignificant amount of effort. It's not a trivial thing that's being asked of unpaid staff. When you couple that with the fact that the content in question isn't something we're eager to defend, and it becomes clear why these threads go to shit for a myriad of reasons. I'm not saying that there's not an argument to be made for letting the discussions go on and banning people on both sides -- fans for posting content that is against the ToS on one and people trolling with ad hominemens on the other. But that takes a lot of effort that we don't want to expend. Perhaps there's a moderator on our staff that wouldn't mind being the fanservice thread mod, but I don't want the job. And several of the other people on staff don't want it either.
 
Hey, I didn't want this post to get lost in the shuffle.

I agree with you. Discussion of games with adult content that feature actual adults (not that "they're 1000 year old demons in a kid's body, so it's alright lol" nonsense) is a good thing. A refreshing thing. You should read Cara Ellison's ongoing SEXE series on Rock Paper Shotgun - a dozen different articles detailing how the approach to sexual content in gaming varies, from OutRun to Vampire Bloodlines. Independent game experiences are also placed front and center. Highly recommended.

Thanks for the link bish!
 
I have a question. Did those kinds of overly sexualised and creepy games always exist in Japan? I know last gen they lived on the 360 in Japan but I dont remember a lot of creepy bullshit during PS2 or PS1 eras. Not talking about stuff like DOA. I mean this kind of game with female characters of questionable age.

I swear we see alot more creepy stuff now then before.
It was definitely out there and in the open a decade ago when I went to a game shop in Tokyo and had an entire aisle dedicated to h-games.

I don't have an opposition to cartoon porn in general, but the way they're so open to it in Japan has always been really weird to me and I'm kind of curious how it came about. Europe's may be more comfortable with sexual content in their media than the US, but in comparison to the former Japan has a far bigger fixation on it.
 

Honey Bunny

Member
This particular banning doesn't tread on the sort of games that I play, however I am pretty certain that somewhere down the line, a game I like will have some form of discussion banned because of this new precedent. So I'll just add that I'm against it in principle.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
I have a question. Did those kinds of overly sexualised and creepy games always exist in Japan? I know last gen they lived on the 360 in Japan but I dont remember a lot of creepy bullshit during PS2 or PS1 eras. Not talking about stuff like DOA. I mean this kind of game with female characters of questionable age.

I swear we see alot more creepy stuff now then before.

Cliffnotes: Japan's economy has slumped into recession in recent years (well, for a long while now, actually) and by doing so the spending power has shifted. In the "good old days" Japan didn't make content for the world, they made content for Japan, and it just so happened that what sold well in Japan sold well everywhere. The slumping economy has made it so that luxury spending by the common class has become extremely low.

This doesn't affect the Otaku, Yankii, and other marginalized minority spending habbits, however, as their spending on their hobbies has always been disproportionally high. However, with these groups still spending a lot of money, and the average person not spending very much at all, it has meant that these marginalized groups now control Japan's output. Their tastes are catered to predominantly by the entertainment industry where they spend the most money.

Hence, what Japan puts out now, only vocal minorities in Japan actually enjoy.

Long, detailed article on the situation: http://neojaponisme.com/2011/11/28/the-great-shift-in-japanese-pop-culture-part-one/

TL;DR: You're not imagining it.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
You know, maybe if you're spending a whole lot of mental energy to figure out exactly which of your games with sexualized kids you can still talk about here on GAF, you might want to take a minute and reevaluate some things.
 

Yuuichi

Member
I feel like eroge are a bit different by virtue of being text-based. They're rarely if ever all sex, even nukige ones. I'm sure many have merits beyond sex.

Most games made by respectable companies (Key, Pallete, Nitro+, Age, ect.) tend to be much lighter on sexual content than I think most people believe them to be, if they have have any at all. In fact, it's often not hard to tell that explicit scenes were shoehorned in in most cases.

As for fanservice-y games in relation, as for what I've heard they're not often comparable in their merits, although I have heard monster monopiece praised on twitter, I know it's from people in the crowd who are willing to accept all of it, something I actively choose not to do, and making me reluctant to investigate the game even for gameplay reasons.
 
GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

it would be great if these games dealt in 16 to 17 year olds
unfortunately we aren't lucky :(

e: i mean not great in the absolute
but in the relative where i don't want ot fucking barf about a person's strong desire to act out their pedophilic tendencies via videogame
 

Yarbskoo

Member
So the consensus we've reached in regards to these games that prominently feature underage girl fan-service is to simply not give them a platform here. That's not to say that we all out and out condemn the very existence of these products and the fans that would play and want to talk about them. But we just honestly feel that there is no place for it here.

Understandable, and although I don't agree with the decision, I do respect the management's right to moderate it's own forum as it sees fit.

Personally, I've found it's a bad idea to try and judge people based on what media they consume, but not everyone thinks the same way, and threads about these kinds of games tend to get derailed hard so I can see the reasoning behind wanting to prevent these types of discussions.

A regrettable situation, but a situation nonetheless.
 

Vire

Member
This particular banning doesn't tread on the sort of games that I play, however I am pretty certain that somewhere down the line, a game I like will have some form of discussion banned because of this new precedent. So I'll just add that I'm against it in principle.

It's a slippery slope guys.

First they bann all underage sexual simulators, then the bann all cliffy b hate threads... I MEAN WHERE DOES IT END?
 
GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

Ec2TVI1.gif
 

Yuuichi

Member
It's a slippery slope guys.

First they bann all underage sexual simulators, then the bann all cliffy b hate threads... I MEAN WHERE DOES IT END?

It probably ends when we can't complain about EA or Ubisoft anymore.

Either that or when cliffy b goes back in to retirement we can quit, right?
 
Right. I'm just trying to make it painstakingly clear that a lot of suggestions on "how to keep threads on track" ignore that this kind of activity takes a not-insignificant amount of effort. It's not a trivial thing that's being asked of unpaid staff. When you couple that with the fact that the content in question isn't something we're eager to defend, and it becomes clear why these threads go to shit for a myriad of reasons. I'm not saying that there's not an argument to be made for letting the discussions go on and banning people on both sides -- fans for posting content that is against the ToS on one and people trolling with ad hominemens on the other. But that takes a lot of effort that we don't want to expend. Perhaps there's a moderator on our staff that wouldn't mind being the fanservice thread mod, but I don't want the job. And several of the other people on staff don't want it either.

Fair enough, I guess sometimes I forget you guys do a lot of work without pay and don't recognize how difficult keeping such a thread properly moderated is. In that sense, I completely understand.
 
The reason things always turn into the "clear line" argument probably has a lot to do with the philosophical bent of many of the posters. Many of us are very leary about censorship of any kind, even when its squick material like Criminal Girls.

People just resent being told no in general when they think the answer should be yes.

We're in Evilore's house right now. He gets to set the rules. It's technically censorship, under certain definitions, but is it really meaningfully clamping down on the game's ability to be accessed? Not in any way.

Well, as opposed to actually discussing the content of the post (as others did, leading into discussion throughout this thread), you took issue with the post itself, the purpose of the post, and my intentions when creating the post. That's not conducive to any actual discussion of the matter at hand.

That's because the way in which you framed the actual discussion is flawed. I took issue with it. It's a loaded way to present the issue and I think it's dangerously close to a fallacy.

I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your loaded question. So your accusations of hypocrisy are also misplaced.

EDIT: Actually I'm right; it is a logical fallacy!
 
Hey, I didn't want this post to get lost in the shuffle.

I agree with you. Discussion of games with adult content that feature actual adults (not that "they're 1000 year old demons in a kid's body, so it's alright lol" nonsense) is a good thing. A refreshing thing. You should read Cara Ellison's ongoing SEXE series on Rock Paper Shotgun - a dozen different articles detailing how the approach to sexual content in gaming varies, from OutRun to Vampire Bloodlines. Independent game experiences are also placed front and center. Highly recommended.
Thanks for the response, I appreciate it.

So for example, there was a game called "No, Thank You!!!" just recently announced for a North American English release for the PC. It's a gay themed VN featuring adult characters, but it also includes sex scenes. As long as no pictures of the adult content were posted, and the discussion wasn't based around the explicit details of the sexual content, would a discussion topic/OT for the game be allowed?

I would totally understand if it wasn't, but if it was, I would like to be able to talk about it here, because this is a safe space to do so without it turning into some pariah topic, where you have to defend the very existance of a game not made with straight male gamers in mind.
 

Tohsaka

Member
This isn't true. Even the red label Saturn games did not have nudity. They had sexual scenes, but all the graphics had to be covered up for the console versions. To balance it out and make the console versions have added value, they would add voice to the games when the PC versions didn't have any. The lack of outright nudity also allowed them to get better known voice casts who wouldn't work on "porn games".

It's true that games with nudity weren't always forbidden in Japan like they are now. If you look at this (NSFW) article about Snatcher you'll see that there's nudity present in some of the Japanese console versions, but not the western Sega CD version.
 

Esch

Banned
Difficult rule: define pedophile shit.

the line is pretty clear for those of us who are not pedophiles. I like to call it 'pedo-sense', where games with sections that involve inappropriately sexually abusing small children for points freak out your average non pedophile, whereas your actual pedophile may react defensively to it's exclusion from a probable shitware product.

Simple
 
I'm not sure where NeoGaf is based, but it's illegal in the USA to possess, trade, distribute or host child porn on the internet or even on your own private computer. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html

Images of child pornography are not protected under First Amendment rights, and are illegal contraband under federal law. Section 2256 of Title 18, United States Code, defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (someone under 18 years of age). Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor. Undeveloped film, undeveloped videotape, and electronically stored data that can be converted into a visual image of child pornography are also deemed illegal visual depictions under federal law.
Notably, the legal definition of sexually explicit conduct does not require that an image depict a child engaging in sexual activity. A picture of a naked child may constitute illegal child pornography if it is sufficiently sexually suggestive. Additionally, the age of consent for sexual activity in a given state is irrelevant; any depiction of a minor under 18 years of age engaging in sexually explicit conduct is illegal.
Federal law prohibits the production, distribution, reception, and possession of an image of child pornography using or affecting any means or facility of interstate or foreign commerce (See 18 U.S.C. § 2251; 18 U.S.C. § 2252; 18 U.S.C. § 2252A). Specifically, Section 2251 makes it illegal to persuade, induce, entice, or coerce a minor to engage in sexually explicit conduct for purposes of producing visual depictions of that conduct. Any individual who attempts or conspires to commit a child pornography offense is also subject to prosecution under federal law.

From wiki:

Federal sentencing guidelines regarding child pornography differentiate between production, distribution, and purchasing / receiving, and also include variations in severity based on the age of the child involved in the materials, with significant increases in penalties when the offense involves a prepubescent child or a child under the age of 12.[2] US law distinguishes between pornographic images of an actual minor, realistic images that are not of an actual minor, and non-realistic images such as drawings. The latter two categories are legally protected unless found to be obscene, whereas the first does not require a finding of obscenity.


So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.
 

Mik317

Member
I entered this thread to give a defense as I thought this would effect other fanservice heavy games and stuff

and then I watched the trailer.

nope.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
This isn't true. Even the red label Saturn games did not have nudity. They had sexual scenes, but all the graphics had to be covered up for the console versions. To balance it out and make the console versions have added value, they would add voice to the games when the PC versions didn't have any. The lack of outright nudity also allowed them to get better known voice casts who wouldn't work on "porn games".

I had no idea that red label saturn games were meant to imply adult content. My copy of Nocturne in the Moonlight has a red label on the spine that reads Dracula X. Same reasoning?
 
I've been on Gaf for like a decade, it can and will threat subject matters and threads on a case by case basis, and continues to evolve. After looking up this game, blinking and staring for a good minute trying to digest what the heck I'm looking at; the explanation posts by mods charlequin and Steve Youngblood are perfectly reasonable regarding the headache of modding such questionable heated material. I certainly wouldn't want to either if I was a mod.

for the record, i was far and away the most abusive mod (admin) neogaf ever had.

i'd edit your posts because you wrote too much nonsense.

i'd edit your posts because i felt you were too far up your own ass.

i'd ban you because you were a furry or lolicon.

i'd ban you if i thought the place became funnier by banning you, either through the response to your ban or because your absence generally improved the joint.

i'd delete your thread if it was about sports -- because i could.

i'd do it all again a decade later. if i caught even the MEREST HINT OF ANIMU PEDERASTY, i'd lock the thread, trash the responses, and ban everyone within three degrees of separation from the op.

SO THANK YOU BASED EVILORE for your current mods and admins, eh?

Oh man, this takes me back so hard!
 

Ryuukan

Member
I'm not sure where NeoGaf is based, but it's illegal in the USA to possess, trade, distribute or host child porn on the internet or even on your own private computer. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html



From wiki:




So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.

So long Kill la Kill |OT|
 

unbias

Member
GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

If you average out age of consent world wide, with an adult, it averages out to be about 16. So even at worst if you average it out to 15-16, it's still pretty easy to point out the sexual based games with those 14 or under.
 

fedexpeon

Banned
I don't know why you're getting so worked up.

It's a Japanese game made by a niche Japanese company. I assume it's mainly being worked on by Japanese men.

And yes, if a company is basically making creepy borderline child porn, I'd say they're morally reprehensible even if they're not actually pedophiles themselves.

Because slandering and defamation a whole group of people is wrong.
You can tell me that they are a horrible company due to having a history of bad gameplay or story, and that is fine since you are talking about theirs works.

But to tell NIS, and the people working there that they are a bunch of pedophile is wrong.
As well, you don't need to make such a sweep generalization of the men/women working there that they don't have a moral compass because of theirs company product.

I hate JP Morgan and the London scandal, but I don't make generalization that all the men/women working in that company are a bunch of mini-demons and morally corrupted because of their work relationship with JP Morgan.
 

Kinyou

Member
I'm not sure where NeoGaf is based, but it's illegal in the USA to possess, trade, distribute or host child porn on the internet or even on your own private computer. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html



From wiki:




So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.
Isn't the game released in the US? I assume that means it's not classified as child porn
 

Abounder

Banned
Just recently Japan became one of the last developed nations to ban child porn but it did not apply to manga. http://www.economist.com/news/world-week/21604614-politics-week

Japan is basically out on an island vs the rest of the world when it comes to this stuff. If I recall correctly a United Nations committee several years ago also sent a letter asking to basically stop hentai; and other Asian nations have pushed for similar legislation banning such Japanese comics. It is further problematic when you consider that female equality ranks so low in Japan compared to the rest of the world: http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201310260017

On the other hand the game is on retail shelves. However maybe it slipped through the bureaucratic cracks, or is this a trend of things to come? In any case the Oculus Rift and virtual reality will bring even more issues, however in my opinion rape culture entertainment especially with minors should not be promoted, and that's the globalized norm for what it's worth. Then again where do games like South Park fit in with anal probes, underage kids, sex scenes, etc?
 

Seik

Banned
I don't necessarily disagree, but saying it's different because of course it's different is a pretty unconvincing argument.

I don't think I need to clarify or to explain my point even more.

I've been arguing here and reading this thread for a while now. I'm literally stunned at some people's point of view. Sure they can like whatever they want to. We're free after all.

Something I need to point out now is that this is clearly a case where I'm just angry as I'm typing atm. The amount of people defending this stuff and comparing it to shit that's not in the same category at all just makes me livid and blows my mind to astronomical levels. I hope people here can understand that.

Just to be clear, when I was twenty, like five years ago. I saw one of my old friend's father once touching a little girl (15-16's) while she was in the kitchen to get a water glass, all alone and caressing her not-tits, she seemed to be really uncomfortable with it. He was drunk as fuck with that damn grin on his face, I said to the girl to step away, shouted shit at him, he raised his voice too and I started shouting that he was a fucking pedophile and we fought. I'm fucking glad to say that this is the only time I fought in my life and that's probably the only reason I'll fight for in my life. I fucking wrecked him too, and he could do jack shit because the little girl was on my side. I'm really glad I punched this drunk motherfucker so hard on his damn face.

I lost a friend because of this, but a friend standing by his father for this cause is no friend to me, fuck him, that girl had no reason to be there either, I don't know why the fuck he invited her because that was the first time I saw her face and I asked him why the fuck he's hanging with these kind of girls, then the battle happened right after. I went out right after and the girl came with me and said ''Thank you, I don't know what would've happened if you didn't show up.'' and that, my friends, made me feel as I could die complete after that.

On this, I'm out. Because I fear I may get banned if I go further in this discussion.
 
GAF is an international forum. Whose age of consent are we going to use to define this limit?

The age of consent has nothing to do with the psychiatric disorder.

And child porn laws in the majority of countries prohibit minors under 18 from participating in pornography. Again, separate from the age of consent.
 

alstein

Member
I have a question. Did those kinds of overly sexualised and creepy games always exist in Japan? I know last gen they lived on the 360 in Japan but I dont remember a lot of creepy bullshit during PS2 or PS1 eras. Not talking about stuff like DOA. I mean this kind of game with female characters of questionable age.

I swear we see alot more creepy stuff now then before.

Custer's Revenge was an explicit game for the old Atari 2600 consoles. So yes, creepy games have been around since before the NES.

The reason you didn't see a lot of it on the PS1/PS2 is because Sony's censorship standards were higher then. The standards have been loosened now, largely because of the slumping economy and increasing influence of "creepy otaku types" as mentioned in an earlier post.
 

terrisus

Member
That's because the way in which you framed the actual discussion is flawed. I took issue with it. It's a loaded way to present the issue and I think it's dangerously close to a fallacy.

I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your loaded question. So your accusations of hypocrisy are also misplaced.

It wasn't flawed, it wasn't loaded, and it wasn't a fallacy. It was a legitimate issue, which got legitimate discussion within this thread, before you decided to attack the post for whatever reason.

But, obviously this is adding nothing either to this thread or to the actual discussion branching off of this post.


EDIT:


Oh boy, linking to a Wikipedia article to say "Actually I'm right."
Yeah, I'm definitely done with that particular line of discussion.
 

drotahorror

Member
Wouldn't this game (Criminal Girls) be banned in the USA anyway? I don't see how it's getting through the ESRB.

If any of the girls are younger than 18 and are being painted in a sexual way it's instant ban/ illegal shit in the USA yeah? I thought loli stuff was completely illegal in the states.
 
I'm not sure where NeoGaf is based, but it's illegal in the USA to possess, trade, distribute or host child porn on the internet or even on your own private computer. Doesn't matter if it's anime or real either - if the anime is obscene, like in this game, then it is illegal.

http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/citizensguide/citizensguide_porn.html



From wiki:




So, it's pretty easy to see why moderation is required - all it takes is one or two gifs with one of these girls in it to get the FBI's attention.

As I said in the last thread, the obscenity charge works on a state by state thing when referring to this kind of stuff. It is not a federal law. In certain states, it would not be illegal if a real child is not involved.

That being said, Criminal Girls probably could get NIS in trouble in certain states if any law/government people truly wanted to pursue it. I don't think anyone in that position really cares, though.
 
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