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Analysis: What really happened in Final Fantasy VIII (SPOILERS)

K

konstarGAF

Neo Member
Rahul said:
Like I said, you can go with that theory if you want. I don't see much point in us sitting here trying to explain away each other's theories; we obviously both believe in a particular one..
Click to expand...
you still don't say what you think about the first point:
flower field that appears 3 times and the reason Ultimecia Knows that Squall is going to die and that Rinoa saves him sending him the feather and goes to heaven.

Can you answer that? it's all i ask

and i don't believe in any theory until i play the game again. The first time i played i didn't see that R=U or Laguna = Squall father and the game made perfect sense to me. It's one of the best rpgs i ever played and one of the best endings i ever watch. I didn't even saw this image until checking this thread:

67t79j.png

Saying that looks like Rinoa is because someone in this thread commented that and seemed plausible. I she Elleone? OK, need to play the game again.
 
R

Rahul

Member
konstarGAF said:
you still don't say what you think about the first point:
flower field that appears 3 times and the reason Ultimecia Knows that Squall is going to die and that Rinoa saves him sending him the feather and goes to heaven.

Can you answer that? it's all i ask

and i don't believe in any theory until i play the game again. The first time i played i didn't see that R=U or Laguna = Squall father and the game made perfect sense to me. It's one of the best rpgs i ever played and one of the best endings i ever watch. I didn't even saw this image until checking this thread:

67t79j.png

Saying that looks like Rinoa is because someone in this thread commented that and seemed plausible. I she Elleone? OK, need to play the game again.
Click to expand...
I don't think the flower field is particularly significant other than being an image of something that Squall finds comforting and romantic, given that he always sees Rinoa there.

I don't know what you're trying to say with your "Ultimecia knows that Squall is goint to die" and "Rinoa saves him sending him the feather".
 
H

Holepunch

Member
I haven't read the whole thread but... going with the whole "Squall is dead" theory then the Ellone-Laguna dream sequence sidestory nearly all of it gets unwritten. That would be fine except only nearly all of it gets unwritten, it still has it's beginning.

From what I recall, in disc 1...

-Ellone visits Squall at the infirmary right at the beginning of the game.

-Squall and Quistis save Ellone from an evil giant hornet monster (grenaldo?). No one knows who Ellone is at this point.

-Squall, Selphie and Zell all mysteriously pass out on the train and have the same dream. They don't actually realize it they all had the same dream.

-Later they pass out in the forest and have another Laguna dream, afterwards talking with each other realizing they've all been having the same dream.

At this point, Squall would die under the theory. The rest of Ellone being Squall's sister (or something, can't quite remember their relationship) would be a falsified dream made by Squall. Squall's dream explains the previous events. However because Squall is dead this does not explain the mysterious events so the real reason for their dream sequences or Ellone's importance (if any) is all left a giant gaping plothole.
 
D

Diablos

Member
I don't think he dies. Well, he may, but FF8 is a time loop where things kept repeating until they were able to stop it, unknowingly.
 
R

Rahul

Member
Holepunch said:
I haven't read the whole thread but... going with the whole "Squall is dead" theory then the Ellone-Laguna dream sequence sidestory nearly all of it gets unwritten. That would be fine except only nearly all of it gets unwritten, it still has it's beginning.

From what I recall, in disc 1...

-Ellone visits Squall at the infirmary right at the beginning of the game.

-Squall and Quistis save Ellone from an evil giant hornet monster (grenaldo?). No one knows who Ellone is at this point.

-Squall, Selphie and Zell all mysteriously pass out on the train and have the same dream. They don't actually realize it they all had the same dream.

-Later they pass out in the forest and have another Laguna dream, afterwards talking with each other realizing they've all been having the same dream.

At this point, Squall would die under the theory. The rest of Ellone being Squall's sister (or something, can't quite remember their relationship) would be a falsified dream made by Squall. Squall's dream explains the previous events. However because Squall is dead this does not explain the mysterious events so the real reason for their dream sequences or Ellone's importance (if any) is all left a giant gaping plothole.
Click to expand...

I prefer to call it "intentionally left untold" rather than "plot hole". In my view, the brilliance of the first disc is that it sets up a world which Squall can imagine he becomes important to. Who Ellone is, how she knows him and why Squall dreams about Laguna is left unexplained, because regardless of what is really going on, the game is a character study of Squall and his internal dialogues, and doesn't intend to explain every single thing going on like other games would.
 
R

Rahul

Member
Diablos said:
I don't think he dies. Well, he may, but FF8 is a time loop where things kept repeating until they were able to stop it, unknowingly.
Click to expand...

The time loop and Squall's Dead views are not mutually exclusive :)
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It's one thing to have fun with alternative theories about games... but if you think they're 100% likely or confirmed by aspects of the game itself, well...

It kinda reminds me of this movie:

a_beautiful_mind_russell_crowe-3.jpg


^ A brilliant person creating fabulous stories out of random nonsense.
 
V

Vinci

Danish
charlequin said:
Yes. "Storytelling," that's a useful word. It is composed of two root words: "story" and "telling." Let's focus on that latter one: storytelling does not, in fact, involve leaving things out of the telling entirely and requiring people to perform insane plot analysis in order to "unlock" the true, secret "underlying" meaning of the narrative; it involves telling the readers or viewers a story.



Well, I know why: because you made up a random theory to "explain" why a badly-written story was actually super-good and like all such interpretations, it ignores the bits that don't fit while investing an insane amount of importance into even minor elements that do.

Why is "world-building" necessary in a storyline that isn't real? What is the purpose of spending time on irrelevant side-stories that hypothetical-Squall, in such a situation, would never waste a moment imagining? If this is the ultimate purpose of the narrative -- the entire reason for the story's existence -- why are there so few clues that no one playing the game upon its release understood this purpose, and so many elements that quite straightforwardly push towards a literal interpretation of the story?

The theory you're offering isn't a new or clever idea; it's been used in many works before, like Owl Creek Bridge mentioned above (the Wikipedia entry even lists many of them), or the Gilliam film
Brazil
, or even the episode of House
"No Reason"
. What you will see, consistently, in these stories, are two parts: a dramatic (either immediate or gradual) change in tone and thematic content to mark the shift into an "unreal" part of the narrative, and a reveal (and emotional catharsis) at the end that explains what happened (so the observer can actually interpret the narrative they've just experienced[/i]) and, more importantly, why, so we can understand how this knowledge aids the narrative.

If your theory transformed the bloated, inconsistent, meandering narrative of FF8 into a taut, purposeful story where every element had immense resonance and purpose, that'd be one thing, but you're just transforming it into a bloated, inconsistent, meandering narrative that also requires secret arcane knowledge and in-depth analysis outside of the actual experience of playing the game to "unlock."



Sure it is. Ultimately the premise of any story that's told is that there is a conclusion that makes the time and effort invested in exploring it worthwhile. When someone drones on and on about events with no coherence or relevance like that kid in Psychonauts, we say they "don't know how to tell a story" because a successful story innately possesses some purpose that both compels you to follow it to its conclusion and in some way leaves you satisfied even after it is over.

FFVIII has a quite cliche story, told badly and laden down with nonsensical and bizarre elements, but ultimately there's at least a few basic story threads you can follow through it: guy-gets-girl, jerk-becomes-nice-guy, hero-defeats-villain, acquaintances-become-friends. Your take, on the other hand, doesn't really have any narrative purpose -- it's the story of a guy who was an asshole, and then died, and then made up a bunch of shit which ultimately didn't matter because he was dead, and none of the actual mysteries of the living world that the dead asshole was involved in before he died were solved before he died and deprived us of the opportunity to learn about them.


EDIT: Or, shorter me:
Click to expand...

That was eight to ten minutes of your life you'll never get back, man.
 
S

Scythian Empire

Member
After recently playing through most of Final Fantasy VIII (The 4th disc died on my PS3) I have to say, this theory has really opened my eyes. I've played through the game before many years ago when I was a young boy and didn't think much of the story. To be honest, I just didn't get it. It all seemed a little too perfect. There was no tragedy like in Final Fantasy VII for instance. The ending makes perfect sense to me now. The bits with Rinoa's blurred face, and the important events only prior to Squalls 'death' all fits together. It certainly adds a new emotional connection to Squall prior to this theory. If it all is reality then Squall feels a bit like an empty shell...A bit like no face Squall.
 
Bitmap Frogs

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
Not trying to be a douch, but fans squeezing their brains to fill the plot holes in japanese media is old.

Look, SquareEnix isn't doing high-art stuff, if there are plot holes, if there's sillyness, if some things are weird it's just because they didn't know how to do better or they thought it was good enough as it was.

If you ask me, given how massive the FF projects become and the intrinsically collaborative nature of it I'd say it's all a result of every major figure in the production pulling things into their own vision, the resulting game being the coalesced mess of the intentions of their developers.
 
R

Rahul

Member
Bitmap Frogs said:
Not trying to be a douch, but fans squeezing their brains to fill the plot holes in japanese media is old.

Look, SquareEnix isn't doing high-art stuff, if there are plot holes, if there's sillyness, if some things are weird it's just because they didn't know how to do better or they thought it was good enough as it was.

If you ask me, given how massive the FF projects become and the intrinsically collaborative nature of it I'd say it's all a result of every major figure in the production pulling things into their own vision, the resulting game being the coalesced mess of the intentions of their developers.
Click to expand...
Probably! Doesn't make the theory any less awesome, though. ;)
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Prime Blue said:
If you think that is "verbatim", you'd better have your eyes checked. :lol
Click to expand...
Read further into that GF thread. They revised it a few times. What they came up with is exactly what you keep posting.

But somehow your version is bulletproof. *cough*
 
J

jaxword

Member
I personally do not see much evidence that the writers intended for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

HOWEVER, I will say that DISSIDIA has Ultimecia give lines that are rather odd, almost as if she knows Squall well, and that she has an emotional investment in him.

Take that as you will.
 
H

Holepunch

Member
Rahul said:
I prefer to call it "intentionally left untold" rather than "plot hole". In my view, the brilliance of the first disc is that it sets up a world which Squall can imagine he becomes important to. Who Ellone is, how she knows him and why Squall dreams about Laguna is left unexplained, because regardless of what is really going on, the game is a character study of Squall and his internal dialogues, and doesn't intend to explain every single thing going on like other games would.
Click to expand...

Well either the gobsmackingly impossible is "intentionally left untold" or Squall intentionally doesn't die.

It seems to me you affronted a theory with little evidence supporting it other than theres no evidence entirely disproving it. When a piece or part doesn't go along with the theory you simply ignore it rather than adjusting the theory accordingly.

In fact, here's a theory. Squall is actually a Moomba pretending to be Squall.

Squall's relationship to Laguna and Ellone is real, but long ago when Squall was ten or so the Moomba found Squall and devoured him. He now wears Squall's skin as a disguise.
The fatal iceshard piercing Squall's body did not kill him because Squall is actually a Moomba, and recovered with "magical healing Moomba power." No wound? Moomba power. That's why Moombas are made into slaves, because they can just take so much abuse with their owners without dying. When you claim Squall conjured up Moombas because he identifies as a lion you actually got it backwards. Squall IS a Moomba and that's why he identifies as a lion. In fact, the reason Squall is such a loner and doesn't care about his friends is because he's a lion and he simply doesn't care for humans. Squall's affection towards Rinoa is actually desire to devour Rinoa's dog, Angelo. Angelo only shows up when Rinoa is badly hurt which is why Squall always tries to seek out Rinoa especially when things are looking bad for Rinoa; for another chance to ingest delicious dog. Moomba's acknowledge Squall as one of their own pride and that's why they share gifts with him.

Airtight case; Squall is a Moomba
 
pancakesandsex

pancakesandsex

Member
Holepunch said:
Well either the gobsmackingly impossible is "intentionally left untold" or Squall intentionally doesn't die.

It seems to me you affronted a theory with little evidence supporting it other than theres no evidence entirely disproving it. When a piece or part doesn't go along with the theory you simply ignore it rather than adjusting the theory accordingly.

In fact, here's a theory. Squall is actually a Moomba pretending to be Squall.

Squall's relationship to Laguna and Ellone is real, but long ago when Squall was ten or so the Moomba found Squall and devoured him. He now wears Squall's skin as a disguise.
The fatal iceshard piercing Squall's body did not kill him because Squall is actually a Moomba, and recovered with "magical healing Moomba power." No wound? Moomba power. That's why Moombas are made into slaves, because they can just take so much abuse with their owners without dying. When you claim Squall conjured up Moombas because he identifies as a lion you actually got it backwards. Squall IS a Moomba and that's why he identifies as a lion. In fact, the reason Squall is such a loner and doesn't care about his friends is because he's a lion and he simply doesn't care for humans. Squall's affection towards Rinoa is actually desire to devour Rinoa's dog, Angelo. Angelo only shows up when Rinoa is badly hurt which is why Squall always tries to seek out Rinoa especially when things are looking bad for Rinoa; for another chance to ingest delicious dog. Moomba's acknowledge Squall as one of their own pride and that's why they share gifts with him.

Airtight case; Squall is a Moomba.
Click to expand...

"Ingest delicious dog" has me dying of laughter.
 
H

harriet the spy

Member
jaxword said:
I personally do not see much evidence that the writers intended for Rinoa to be Ultimecia.

HOWEVER, I will say that DISSIDIA has Ultimecia give lines that are rather odd, almost as if she knows Squall well, and that she has an emotional investment in him.

Take that as you will.
Click to expand...

And her weapons' names are the same as Rinoa's weapons in FF8
DUN DUN DUN

(the above is not meant seriously. please don't go find the original japanese names for the weapons, or the ultimania guide for dissidia saying that the weapons are in fact different).
 
P

Prime Blue

Member
Freshmaker said:
Read further into that GF thread. They revised it a few times. What they came up with is exactly what you keep posting.

But somehow your version is bulletproof. *cough*
Click to expand...
I read the thread. Disregarding your lax interpretation of the words "exactly" and "verbatim", I think we're now right back to where we originally were.
You don't like it because it doesn't support your theory. That doesn't stop this retranslation from being right, though.
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Prime Blue said:
I read the thread. Disregarding your lax interpretation of the words "exactly" and "verbatim", I think we're now right back to where we originally were.
You don't like it because it doesn't support your theory. That doesn't stop this retranslation from being right, though.
Click to expand...
Except that it's not.
 
pancakesandsex

pancakesandsex

Member
Prime Blue said:
And why is that again, please? :lol

I think now we're starting the real fun.
Click to expand...

From where I'm standing both of you are competing for the gold in the special olympics, because both the original translation and the lolgamefaqsloluwhatever one that was posted here have the same intent, only one is written in far more coherent English. Guess "witch" isn't the better one.
 
P

Prime Blue

Member
pancakesandsex said:
From where I'm standing both of you are competing for the gold in the special olympics, because both the original translation and the lolgamefaqsloluwhatever one that was posted here have the same intent, only one is written in far more coherent English. Guess "witch" isn't the better one.
Click to expand...
The original doesn't contain anything like "hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations". There's no denying that the scene was translated very loosely for the English market.
 
pancakesandsex

pancakesandsex

Member
Prime Blue said:
The original doesn't contain anything like "hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations". There's no denying that the scene was translated very loosely for the English market.
Click to expand...

It sure does. It's right there in your "translation" plain as day. The meaning was completely unchanged.
 
N

Narag

Member
anaron said:
Unfortunately, no.

Pretty sure my account was hacked. Password wasn't working today.


This is weeeeeeeeeeird. :/
Click to expand...

So the theory is your account was hacked, someone posted as you in this thread, then reverted your password back to what it originally was and here you are?

Alternatively, are you sure you didn't post in this thread under the assumption it was the other given the similiar discussion?
 
H

harriet the spy

Member
so do you actually believe that Rinoa is Ultimecia? :lol

More seriously, who would hack a neogaf account to enter a holy war on the deeper meanings of Final fantasy VIII?
 
J

jaxword

Member
anaron said:
Unfortunately, no.

Pretty sure my account was hacked. Password wasn't working today.


This is weeeeeeeeeeird. :/
Click to expand...

Well, either someone did an elaborate "hack" to change your password, post, and then change it back for you post now...or maybe you just left yourself logged in on someone else's comp.

Or drunk, yeah.
 
A

anaron

Member
Or Anaron was possessed by Ultimecia
Click to expand...

Wouldn't it just add SO much more to the whole thing? :p

'Hacked' probably wasn't the ideal word to use. It's looking like a family member who hasn't been able to get an account on GAF used mine to express some thoughts. :lol
 
H

harriet the spy

Member
anaron said:
Wouldn't it just add SO much more to the whole thing? :p

'Hacked' probably wasn't the ideal word to use. It's looking like a family member who hasn't been able to get an account on GAF used mine to express some thoughts. :lol
Click to expand...

I bet you that family member loves Rinoa.
 
C

cosmicblizzard

Banned
anaron said:
Wouldn't it just add SO much more to the whole thing? :p

'Hacked' probably wasn't the ideal word to use. It's looking like a family member who hasn't been able to get an account on GAF used mine to express some thoughts. :lol
Click to expand...

I think a better explanation is you're dying and GAF is just your pre-death dream. Why else would people say the things they do here and talk about crazy theories?
 
K

konstarGAF

Neo Member
Rahul said:
I don't know what you're trying to say with your "Ultimecia knows that Squall is goint to die" and "Rinoa saves him sending him the feather".
Click to expand...
This is what you say in your article:

"Ultimecia, she starts to say some strange things, statements that appear very out-of-context for a final battle.

"Reflect on your... Childhood..."

"Your sensation... Your words... Your emotions..."

"Time... It will not wait..."

"No matter... ...how hard you hold on. It escapes you..."

When I read those words, a chill ran up my spine. With every attack, you bring down Ultimecia's hit points, and you bring Squall's dream to a close. Squall, oblivious, fights on, and only this figment of his imagination seems aware of what is happening."


I think you are saying that Ultimecia knows what is happening, Squall is dying and he isn't aware of that.

The other is that he doesn't know that he is dying until he receives the feather and watch the vision. Who send the feather? Rinoa. And for what you say here:
"And now, finally, Squall is dead. We see a white feather fall to the ground, and the screen fades to black. The last ten minutes of the FFVIII ending movie are, in the simplest terms, of "heaven", or some equivalent thereof."

We see Rinoa already in this "heaven" before Squall receives the feather, so i think it's clear it's Rinoa who sends the feather and tells him the truth.
2vbklk5.jpg
 
J

jaxword

Member
I'm telling you guys, Ellone is the other half of Hyne's power, and Ultimecia is simply trying to unite the split halves.
 
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