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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.

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R

Raist

Banned
The Faceless Master said:
what limits? any artificially implied limit in an EULA or TOS still has to actually stand up in court.
Click to expand...

Any software, movie, nusic or whatever that you buy, doesn't actually really belong to you. You don't own it per se, you just bought a license to use it in a specific way, while you own the physical support (or hardware). So no, you can't do anything you want with it. You can't buy a DVD from HMV or Best Buy or whatever and then rent it, or distribute it, or edit it and upload it on YT or whatevs.
 
K

KernelPanic

Member
OtherOS was a vulnerability on the system. Sony may have extended an 'olive branch' to the hackers/modders by letting them install Linux but Geohot was using Linux to try and hack the hypervisor which he kind of did.

We all remember his 'well if you can hack the PS3 then maybe you deserve free PS3 games' (or similar statement).

This affects Sony and their developers so I don't blame them for doing anything they possibly can to stop it.

It doesn't seem they can do much.
 
3

3rdman

Member
Guy Legend said:
You missed his point. Piracy negatively affects the majority of legit users as he pointed out. Money is being spent here when it could be spent on something service/fun oriented.

The hack benefits a fringe group of users like yourself. You think Sega and the majority of Dreamcast users benefited from its widespread piracy? Who's really taking the world revolves around you attitude here.
Click to expand...
Well then too bad for him, I guess. He'll just have to live with disappointment...it'll be a good life lesson, I think.
 
C

Cruceh

Banned
Didn't Spain already tell Sony to go shove it last month with the jailbreak thing? Why would something different happen here?
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Raist said:
Any software, movie, nusic or whatever that you buy, doesn't actually really belong to you. You don't own it per se, you just bought a license to use it in a specific way, while you own the physical support (or hardware).
Click to expand...
So… Is that right or wrong? Hmmmmm?
 
C

Cruzader

Banned
3rdman said:
UM...I don't care how it affects you at all. The hack will affect me positively so allow me to remind you that the world doesn't revolve around you either.


LOL so you are a kid with no ability or stamina to stand by your rants...yeah, I'll be sure to take you more seriously in the future.
Click to expand...
Thanx for proving some of our points against CFW or hacking a console in general.

People like you don't give to shits that now legit users have to deal with BS that's gonna start coming to combat the hacks. You wouldn't care about what happens now obviously since you could possible get around updates n such. But now the rest have to worry short term and log term outcomes.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Metalmurphy said:
You should re-read what you posted.
Click to expand...
ok...


Raist: Yeah, you surely have the right to do whatever you want with your hardware. You can use your PS3 as a hammer if you please. Problem is, JB, custon firmware etc, is based on modifications of software, which isn't exactly yours.

The Faceless Master: you already paid for the ability to use the software when you bought the hardware.

Metalmurphy: Oh shit son! Guess piracy is legal now!


i can only assume that you mean CFW = Piracy or you were rsponding to something other than what you quoted. which is it, or is there something else that i'm missing, and if so, what?
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
Cruzader said:
People like you don't give to shits that now legit users have to deal with BS that's gonna start coming to combat the hacks. You wouldn't care about what happens now obviously since you could possible get around updates n such. But now the rest have to worry short term and log term outcomes.
Click to expand...
What exactly are you hinting at? What do you think is going to happen? How do you come to that conclusion?
 
J

Jobiensis

Member
KernelPanic said:
OtherOS was a vulnerability on the system. Sony may have extended an 'olive branch' to the hackers/modders by letting them install Linux but Geohot was using Linux to try and hack the hypervisor which he kind of did.
Click to expand...

Is it possible for people to stop trying to rewrite history?

Geohot's initial exploit came after the slim was released without OtherOS. Geohot claims to have started because Sony removed OtherOS from the slim.

Now, I know people love to say that the hackers were lying, but if you want to play conjecture do you honestly believe Sony was planning to support OtherOS on phat forever after it was deliberately removed from slim. I would think the writing was on the wall at that point.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Raist said:
Any software, movie, nusic or whatever that you buy, doesn't actually really belong to you. You don't own it per se, you just bought a license to use it in a specific way, while you own the physical support (or hardware). So no, you can't do anything you want with it. You can't buy a DVD from HMV or Best Buy or whatever and then rent it, or distribute it, or edit it and upload it on YT or whatevs.
Click to expand...
actually, yes, you can rent it. and if by distribute, you mean sell or give away the copy you bought, then yes, you can do that too. as far as editing and uploading, you can do that too depending on exactly what and how you edit and use it. for example, if you were to do a movie review with footage.

and note that i never said you can do "anything you want", i merely said that EULA/TOS limits are not the law and they still have to hold up i court. sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. they are not the law.
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
The Faceless Master said:
ok...


Raist: Yeah, you surely have the right to do whatever you want with your hardware. You can use your PS3 as a hammer if you please. Problem is, JB, custon firmware etc, is based on modifications of software, which isn't exactly yours.

The Faceless Master: you already paid for the ability to use the software when you bought the hardware.

Metalmurphy: Oh shit son! Guess piracy is legal now!


i can only assume that you mean CFW = Piracy or you were rsponding to something other than what you quoted. which is it, or is there something else that i'm missing, and if so, what?
Click to expand...
You were implying that you paid for the ability to use any software. Pirated content, as well as the software used to run it, is part of that "software", so in your words, it's legal.
 
I

itxaka

Defeatist
Raist said:
Any software, movie, nusic or whatever that you buy, doesn't actually really belong to you. You don't own it per se, you just bought a license to use it in a specific way, while you own the physical support (or hardware). So no, you can't do anything you want with it. You can't buy a DVD from HMV or Best Buy or whatever and then rent it, or distribute it, or edit it and upload it on YT or whatevs.
Click to expand...


So you have no rights to rip your music from cd to mp3, filter it, add echoes to it, put your voice in the middle of it or remix it for non-profit?
 
Bojanglez

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
The Faceless Master said:
i can only assume that you mean CFW = Piracy or you were rsponding to something other than what you quoted. which is it, or is there something else that i'm missing, and if so, what?
Click to expand...

I think technically CFW could be seen as a form piracy as it is using the original software (albeit modified) without consent.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Guy Legend said:
You missed his point. Piracy negatively affects the majority of legit users as he pointed out. Money is being spent here when it could be spent on something service/fun oriented.

The hack benefits a fringe group of users like yourself. You think Sega and the majority of Dreamcast users benefited from its widespread piracy? Who's really taking the world revolves around you attitude here.
Click to expand...
know what negatively affects legit users? useless firmware updates.

Sony had PLENTY of those before the PS3 was cracked and people begged for features and complained and Sony has failed for years to deliver. i don't believe for a second that money or time spent combatting this would have ever been used to add any worthwhile or useful features. they had a ton of opportunity already and wasted it, and even removed useful things like OtherOS and Video playback not pausing when you press the PS button.
 
R

RyanDG

Member
Jobiensis said:
Is it possible for people to stop trying to rewrite history?

Geohot's initial exploit came after the slim was released without OtherOS. Geohot claims to have started because Sony removed OtherOS from the slim.

Now, I know people love to say that the hackers were lying, but if you want to play conjecture do you honestly believe Sony was planning to support OtherOS on phat forever after it was deliberately removed from slim. I would think the writing was on the wall at that point.
Click to expand...

However this gets into a circular argument, because even geohot was working on hacking the PS3 prior to Sony announcing its removal in the Slim (or even the announcement of the slim for that matter). There was a lot of groups and speculation that viewed the otheros as the primary vulnerability for the PS3 and the access point that would be able to be used to break the system. Geohot stopped for a little while and picked back up when the announcement of the slim was made without otheros, but it doesn't stop the fact that there was work being done prior to the slim even being announced and the work was all targeted at the Otheros as the entry point.
 
M

Metalmurphy

Member
itxaka said:
So you have no rights to rip your music from cd to mp3, filter it, add echoes to it, put your voice in the middle of it or remix it for non-profit?
Click to expand...
You do.

But not if you do it with hardware/software illegally modified/reversed engineered.
 
R

Rich!

Member
Metalmurphy said:
You do.

But not if you do it with hardware/software illegally modified/reversed engineered.
Click to expand...

So by that logic, I can't record with my circuit bent and hacked/modded synths and keyboards?
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Bojanglez said:
I think technically CFW could be seen as a form piracy as it is using the original software (albeit modified) without consent.
Click to expand...
the CFW made by GeoHot simply patches an already existing original firmware on the PS3. GeoHot isn't distributing an actually modified firmware, the end user has to modify their own software on their own console.
 
S

sangreal

Member
The funny thing is that Sony published in their court filings all the keys that geohot posted. They're a matter of the public record now

oops.gif
 
S

See You Next Wednesday

Banned
Good news all around, anything Sony can do to prevent piracy I'm 100% for it.

Those hackers are in a world of hurt. :lol at people think anon will can do anything but barely DDOS some sites.
 
3

3rdman

Member
Cruzader said:
Thanx for proving some of our points against CFW or hacking a console in general.

People like you don't give to shits that now legit users have to deal with BS that's gonna start coming to combat the hacks. You wouldn't care about what happens now obviously since you could possible get around updates n such. But now the rest have to worry short term and log term outcomes.
Click to expand...
First of all it's two shits that I don't give and secondly it's not me you have to worry about...I don't play online games...ever. Losing PSN for me is a completely irrelevant proposition. What you should be worrying about is Sony's overreaction and their inability to protect their system.
 
Bojanglez

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
The Faceless Master said:
the CFW made by GeoHot simply patches an already existing original firmware on the PS3. GeoHot isn't distributing an actually modified firmware, the end user has to modify their own software on their own console.
Click to expand...

Fair enough then I don't see too much of an issue, unless that modification circumvents any copy protection measures Sony has in their firmware (which I don't believe it does at the moment?).
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Metalmurphy said:
You were implying that you paid for the ability to use any software. Pirated content, as well as the software used to run it, is part of that "software", so in your words, it's legal.
Click to expand...
no. i was implyinh nothing of the sort.

he was saying that modifying the hardware (PS3) was ok, but there was no right to modify the software (on the PS3) and i was saying that is not the case.

hence me asking if you were implying that CFW = Piracy because that's the only conclusion that i could logically reach by your response.
 
R

Rich!

Member
XiaNaphryz said:
Well it depends, did you ask for legal permission first? ;P
Click to expand...

Nope, I did not ask Tomy and Fisher Price for permission.

I also have a hacked Korg, but the other two are far more entertaining. :lol
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
Seeing people spreading the PS3 tools and all that a lot now, couldnt this hurt Geohots and 0verflow case? I mean, couldnt Sony now say "look at how much it's spread because of the info the hackers released"?
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
See You Next Wednesday said:
Good news all around, anything Sony can do to prevent piracy I'm 100% for it.

Those hackers are in a world of hurt. :lol at people think anon will can do anything but barely DDOS some sites.
Click to expand...
:lol :lol :lol

They're in a world of hurt? Are you serious? Most of them are not even in the US. Second of all there is nothing Sony can do now. You do realize that, right?
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
Bojanglez said:
Fair enough then I don't see too much of an issue, unless that modification circumvents any copy protection measures Sony has in their firmware (which I don't believe it does at the moment?).
Click to expand...
actually, that's a kind of funny question. there is no circumvention of any copy protection, in fact the copy protection functions properly, the applications are signed and work in accordance with the copy protection.

i know people hate analogies, but imagine if it's against the Lock Tampering Protection Act to tamper with locks to open them... and someone, instead of using lockpicking tools, simply figures out a way to make the master key for a series of doors with these locks. using a key isn't tampering with a lock, it's not like you're using a lockpick or a hammer or a drill, it's a key, it's used with a lock. obviously, the person who designed the locks mesed up somewhere...
 
N

Nemo

Will Eat Your Children
sangreal said:
The funny thing is that Sony published in their court filings all the keys that geohot posted. They're a matter of the public record now

http://www.thesangreal.net/gafpics/oops.gif[img][/QUOTE]
Hihihi
Click to expand...
 
T

Tenkei

Member
Metalmurphy said:
You were implying that you paid for the ability to use any software. Pirated content, as well as the software used to run it, is part of that "software", so in your words, it's legal.
Click to expand...
Are we reading the same sentences?

Raist: Yeah, you surely have the right to do whatever you want with your hardware. You can use your PS3 as a hammer if you please. Problem is, JB, custon firmware etc, is based on modifications of software, which isn't exactly yours.

The Faceless Master: you already paid for the ability to use the software when you bought the hardware.
Click to expand...
The underlined sections, to me, imply that The Faceless Master is referring to the custom firmware and its ilk. Your response to his response, however, is a misunderstanding at best, and assumes a great leap of logic* at worst.

* Seriously, "modifications of software" => "the software" => "all software" => "pirated games is a subset of all software"? Is that the chain of implications?
 
J

Jobiensis

Member
RyanDG said:
However this gets into a circular argument, because even geohot was working on hacking the PS3 prior to Sony announcing its removal in the Slim
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Please provide some facts to back this up, because I have seen nothing that shows this to be true at all. From what I saw, geohot's involvement almost exactly matches the slim announcement without OtherOS.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
itxaka said:
Iapetus was the one who got the refund, and I'm pretty sure it was thanks to Amazon, not Sony.
Click to expand...
Ye, i think it was Amazon who refunded it themself indeed. But i did hear about another case where a guy in the UK were offered full refund for his PS3 if he accepted a NDA (non-disclosure agreement). I think that this offer was given by Sony themself.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
This exact professor was involved in propagating the algorithm for decrypting CSS when DVD Jon reverse engineered it thanks to private keys cracked from a Xing DVD player. You're arguing yourself in circles.
Click to expand...

Times are changed, different scenarios. I just asked my professor (who also teaches the masters courses) he said it's illegal to do what fail overflow and geohot did. Not the reverse engineering, but the publishing of the digital signature. He said it was equivalent to "using someone elses signature as your own."
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
phosphor112 said:
Times are changed, different scenarios. I just asked my professor (who also teaches the masters courses) he said it's illegal to do what fail overflow and geohot did. Not the reverse engineering, but the publishing of the digital signature. He said it was equivalent to "using someone elses signature as your own."
Click to expand...
No it's not. A person's signature is something entirely different (particularly in the legal sense). Your professor is making stuff up.
 
C

ClovingWestbrook

Banned
phosphor112 said:
Times are changed, different scenarios. I just asked my professor (who also teaches the masters courses) he said it's illegal to do what fail overflow and geohot did. Not the reverse engineering, but the publishing of the digital signature. He said it was equivalent to "using someone elses signature as your own."
Click to expand...

Except Sony doesn't own or have a copyright of the key code since its just a line of numbers. Its akin to me running a row of lockers at school which all have the same combination. I rent out each locker but nobody knows the combination. If someone were to get a hold of it and give it to everyone else, I can't go and claim 'THAT COMBINATION IS MINE!!!!'.

These individuals released the keys which Sony doesn't have ownership of. Sony is simply doing this to try and show their investors that they are doing SOMETHING because at this point that is all they can do. The keys are out there and nothing can be done about it. It comes off as nothing but desperation which is exactly what it is.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
wolfmat said:
No it's not. A person's signature is something entirely different (particularly in the legal sense). Your professor is making stuff up.
Click to expand...
Then what is a digital signature? Are you saying anyone has the right to use my digital signature that I use for my FAFSA?
 
S

sangreal

Member
phosphor112 said:
Then what is a digital signature? Are you saying anyone has the right to use my digital signature that I use for my FAFSA?
Click to expand...

Claiming to be someone you are not is fraud. Solving a math problem and sharing the answer is not.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
LovingSteam said:
Except Sony doesn't own or have a copyright of the key code since its just a line of numbers. Its akin to me running a row of lockers at school which all have the same combination. I rent out each locker but nobody knows the combination. If someone were to get a hold of it and give it to everyone else, I can't go and claim 'THAT COMBINATION IS MINE!!!!'.

These individuals released the keys which Sony doesn't have ownership of. Sony is simply doing this to try and show their investors that they are doing SOMETHING because at this point that is all they can do. The keys are out there and nothing can be done about it. It comes off as nothing but desperation which is exactly what it is.
Click to expand...
Wouldnt it be more like if someone goes online and writes "the combination to John Smith's locker is 2652"?
 
Bojanglez

Bojanglez

The Amiga Brotherhood
sangreal said:
Claiming to be someone you are not is fraud. Solving a math problem and sharing the answer is not.
Click to expand...

So publishing the keys is fine, but using them in software is not?
 
K

KtSlime

Member
Raist said:
Any software, movie, nusic or whatever that you buy, doesn't actually really belong to you. You don't own it per se, you just bought a license to use it in a specific way, while you own the physical support (or hardware). So no, you can't do anything you want with it. You can't buy a DVD from HMV or Best Buy or whatever and then rent it, or distribute it, or edit it and upload it on YT or whatevs.
Click to expand...

Funny fact, it actually doesn't belong to the people that made it either.

It belongs to the Zeitgeist.
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
phosphor112 said:
Then what is a digital signature? Are you saying anyone has the right to use my digital signature that I use for my FAFSA?
Click to expand...
A digital signature is merely a sequence of bytes. That is exactly what it's been treated as in the law so far. Because that is what it is.

Hence, it is your obligation to make that signature unavailable to others. If you fail at that, it's open season.

A person's signature has a different, very specific legal meaning. It's actually pretty interesting.
 
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