• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Official Islamic Thread

Most people (Shia/Sunni) I know don't consider Alawi's muslim.

Similar case with Ahmadi's. At my university the Ahmadi's applied to have their own society set up. The SU suggested that they co-operate with either the Isoc or the Absoc(Ahlul-Bayt Society/Shia Society), but both rejected this and strongly claimed that since Ahmadi's were not close to traditional Islam they couldn't be affiliated with either society. Was pretty tense between the groups.

Also a very big push from the Shia's on campus for Isoc to be renamed the SunniSoc or something similar.

Any of you students and come across similar instances?
There are very few Shia at my campus, let alone Ahmadiyya. I did have one come up and talk to me. It was an unpleasant experience, they have some very odd beliefs.

The Shia on campus usually are affiliated with the general ISOC, they don't really separate themselves so much. Then again they hang around Sunnis so much they aren't very Shia. We pray together and stuff like that.
 

Ydahs

Member
What do you mean?

I mean there is a bunch of division over Syria for sure, but there has never been any question in the minds of most Sunni and Shia that Alawis aren't really part of the community anyway...

Which is ridiculous. Besides, that was normally more present among the older generation from my experiences, but after recent political events it seems that even the younger generation of Sunni Muslims are now dismissing Alawis as being non-Muslim. This fragmentation among the communities benefits no one.

The Alawi community already has their backs against the wall. They don't need any more animosity coming their way.


Also, I did mean to say Sunni-Alawi division (basically tension between the two groups), not split.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
There are very few Shia at my campus, let alone Ahmadiyya. I did have one come up and talk to me. It was an unpleasant experience, they have some very odd beliefs.

The Shia on campus usually are affiliated with the general ISOC, they don't really separate themselves so much. Then again they hang around Sunnis so much they aren't very Shia. We pray together and stuff like that.

Holy shit mate, where have you been?
 

RawPower

Banned
Non-Muslim, partial Middle Easterner here.

What do you guys think of Nation of Islam? I don't know much about them, but some of my Muslim friends decry them for being "false Islam". Why is that?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Non-Muslim, partial Middle Easterner here.

What do you guys think of Nation of Islam? I don't know much about them, but some of my Muslim friends decry them for being "false Islam". Why is that?

bowties
 
Non-Muslim, partial Middle Easterner here.

What do you guys think of Nation of Islam? I don't know much about them, but some of my Muslim friends decry them for being "false Islam". Why is that?

Their beliefs, as I understand them, are not Islamic beliefs. They believe in a new Prophet, they believe that Wallace Fard Mohammed is God, and they don't practice any of the 5 pillars, as far as I am aware anyway.
 

Ydahs

Member
Why is it ridiclous?

I don't see what benefit it serves to divide the community, especially since a lot of the division from the older and now younger generation is because of politics.

I can question the theology of the Alawis, but I sure as hell won't say they're non-Muslims to their face or behind their back and will lose complete respect for anyone who refuses to accept them apart of the community, scholar or not.
 
I don't see what benefit it serves to divide the community, especially since a lot of the division from the older and now younger generation is because of politics.

I can question the theology of the Alawis, but I sure as hell won't say they're non-Muslims to their face or behind their back and will lose complete respect for anyone who refuses to accept them apart of the community, scholar or not.
I have only heard of a single Sunni Qadi who accepts them, and he did it in the name of politics. Do you know better than Ibn Kathir? Do you have no respect for him?

I will, and have, said it to their faces. Their beliefs constitute khufr. When you deny that the prayer is a fard, you are disbelieving in the religion of Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

If you believe in the trinity, you are not a Muslim. Simple really.
 

SmokyDave

Member
I have only heard of a single Sunni Qadi who accepts them, and he did it in the name of politics. Do you know better than Ibn Kathir? Do you have no respect for him?

I will, and have, said it to their faces. Their beliefs constitute khufr. When you deny that the prayer is a fard, you are disbelieving in the religion of Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

If you believe in the trinity, you are not a Muslim. Simple really.
If they say they are muslim, they are muslim. That simple. No matter what they believe.

That's how it's always been told to me when I ask why people ignore bits of the Qur' an.

(Nice to see you back BTW)
 
If they say they are muslim, they are muslim. That simple. No matter what they believe.
Not really, at least in terms of what one group will consider Muslim.
That's how it's always been told to me when I ask why people ignore bits of the Qur' an.
Some things that people ignore do not take them out of the fold of Islam. Some things do. There are some that say that the Wahhabi movement for example is out of the fold of Islam because of their anthropomorphising God.

What do you mean specifically? The discussion here is about whether or not Sunni Muslims are right to view the Alawi sect as part of the Muslim community at all.

(Nice to see you back BTW)
Always a pleasure. Though dunno how long I'm staying for as always.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Not really, at least in terms of what one group will consider Muslim.

Some things that people ignore do not take them out of the fold of Islam. Some things do. There are some that say that the Wahhabi movement for example is out of the fold of Islam because of their anthropomorphising God.

What do you mean specifically? The discussion here is about whether or not Sunni Muslims are right to view the Alawi sect as part of the Muslim community at all.
I don't really want open that can of worms in here. Let's just say I struggle to understand those that ignored punishments prescribed by their own god. Whenever I raise that point, it eventually boils down to 'muslim' being a cultural label and nothing to do with religion at all. I find that hard to swallow but it ain't on me to tell others what or who they are.

Always a pleasure. Though dunno how long I'm staying for as always.
Hope you enjoy your stay, however long it is.
 
I don't really want open that can of worms in here. Let's just say I struggle to understand those that ignored punishments prescribed by their own god. Whenever I raise that point, it eventually boils down to 'muslim' being a cultural label and nothing to do with religion at all. I find that hard to swallow but it ain't on me to tell others what or who they are.

I think it is contextual. In this specific discussion, simply saying 'La ilaha ill-Allah' is not sufficient, when what they mean is a tripartite God, or a man.

As to prescribed punishments being ignored, you would have to be more specific for me to understand.
 

SmokyDave

Member
I think it is contextual. In this specific discussion, simply saying 'La ilaha ill-Allah' is not sufficient, when what they mean is a tripartite God, or a man.

As to prescribed punishments being ignored, you would have to be more specific for me to understand.
Ah, man, I really didn't want to go into this again. OK. The following sura I'm sure you're familiar with:

24:2 said:
The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

There are 0 English translations that I have read that cast any doubt on the intent or meaning of this passage. This is the punishment for adultery / fornication, spelt out crystal clear. You have been told very clearly how to proceed in these matters. Yet, many muslims do not adhere to this crystal clear instruction in cases where adultery / fornication is proven without a doubt. To my mind, those people have some serious cognitive dissonance issues.

Whenever I have raised this, I'm told that Islam is whatever the believer wants it to be, 'muslim' is a culture thing as much as a religion thing, the Qur 'an is not to be taken literally etc..

Given that, I have concluded that nobody can be excluded from calling themselves 'muslim'. That would include the group to which you refer.

Please don't spend any time or brain-power on this because I've come to accept that I just don't 'get it'.
 
Ah, man, I really didn't want to go into this again. OK.


There are 0 English translations that I have read that cast any doubt on the intent or meaning of this passage. This is the punishment for adultery / fornication, spelt out crystal clear. You have been told very clearly how to proceed in these matters. Yet, many muslims do not adhere to this crystal clear instruction in cases where adultery / fornication is proven without a doubt. To my mind, those people have some serious cognitive dissonance issues.
You of course know all the conditional factors involved in this so I'm sure don't need to spell them out again. In this respect, simply because one is denying that such a punishment is appropriate, it does not mean that they are denying the religion as a whole. If they denied that it was a sin (adultery that is) then that would be a different issue. There are some things which, when denied, take one out of the fold of the religion. However merely having wrong ideas (like those that the Shia hold) or denying some specific parts, does not make one not Muslim, it just makes one a wrong or bad Muslim.
Whenever I have raised this, I'm told that Islam is whatever the believer wants it to be, 'muslim' is a culture thing as much as a religion thing, the Qur 'an is not to be taken literally etc..
The Qur'an isn't to be taken literally in its entirety, it is full of metaphors, however there are some points where literalism is the only logical understanding, and one then looks to the example of the Messenger (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam) in order to operationalise direct commands.
Given that, I have concluded that nobody can be excluded from calling themselves 'muslim'. That would include the group to which you refer.

I don't know how one would exclude people from calling themselves anything. I mean I can call myself a robot, people just won't take my word for it. Someone who denies certain things are not neccesarily not Muslim, they are just bad Muslims. Some people reside within scholarly minority opinion, and the are still Muslim, despite being divergant from the mainstream.
 

Ashes

Banned
By law, on a government census if one identifies oneself, as Muslim, or a Jedi, simply by stating it on the form, they are identified as such on the computer system.

I suppose the difference between computers and rational human beings is the ability to differentiate groups.
 
Ah, man, I really didn't want to go into this again. OK. The following sura I'm sure you're familiar with:

There are 0 English translations that I have read that cast any doubt on the intent or meaning of this passage. This is the punishment for adultery / fornication, spelt out crystal clear. You have been told very clearly how to proceed in these matters. Yet, many muslims do not adhere to this crystal clear instruction in cases where adultery / fornication is proven without a doubt. To my mind, those people have some serious cognitive dissonance issues.

Whenever I have raised this, I'm told that Islam is whatever the believer wants it to be, 'muslim' is a culture thing as much as a religion thing, the Qur 'an is not to be taken literally etc..

Given that, I have concluded that nobody can be excluded from calling themselves 'muslim'. That would include the group to which you refer.

Please don't spend any time or brain-power on this because I've come to accept that I just don't 'get it'.
That's an interesting and well thought out point of view.

I am a Muslim but I don't have massive in depth knowledge about my own faith. However, on this type of point I have always been told that there are certain aspects of the faith which can in no way be challenged and to do so, you are rejecting the core basis of the faith. Typically that has been that there is one God only and that God is Allah and that his final messenger if the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

I often used to ask about homosexuality and I was told that one can be a gay Muslim, just that in God's eyes they will be seen as a "bad Muslim", but if they believe in the central aspects of the faith, they are still considered Muslim.

With Alawi's, they directly contradict the belief that there is one God who is Allah and Muhammad (PBUH) is his final messenger, and so for many Muslims, they cannot accept them as Muslims.

I can see the point you are making though, I'm going to put it to a scholar.
 
In regards to the fornication/lashing verse, let me give you a more poignant example. The story of Abraham (or Ibrahim in Arabic) and the command by God to sacrifice his son is one that is also echoed in the Quran. How many devout Christians, Jews and Muslims would be willing to do that? I would never even put that question to them in fear of putting them in a difficult position in regards to their answer. We can guess their answer
 
In regards to the fornication/lashing verse, let me give you a more poignant example. The story of Abraham (or Ibrahim in Arabic) and the command by God to sacrifice his son is one that is also echoed in the Quran. How many devout Christians, Jews and Muslims would be willing to do that? I would never even put that question to them in fear of putting them in a difficult position in regards to their answer. We can guess their answer
I don't understand.

Sacrificing you son is not something which is requested of Muslims in any circumstance whatsoever.

The point of that parable is that Ibrahim listened to the will of God when God commanded of him to sacrifice his son. If God commands any Muslim to do something, they must do it. So if God commands any Muslim today to sacrifice his son, he should do so.
 
I don't understand.

Sacrificing you son is not something which is requested of Muslims in any circumstance whatsoever.

The point of that parable is that Ibrahim listened to the will of God when God commanded of him to sacrifice his son. If God commands any Muslim to do something, they must do it. So if God commands any Muslim today to sacrifice his son, he should do so.

That's what I'm saying. Question is, how many good devout Muslims would?
 
That's what I'm saying. Question is, how many good devout Muslims would?
I think alot of devout Muslims would.

You have to think about what the spiritual experience would be here. If God physically sent an Angel to a Muslim and told him of God's will...that spiritual moment alone would be incredible for a Muslim. It would just solidify their strength of belief to the absolute max. I'm not saying it would be easy for them to go and slaughter their son, but after a confirmation of your belief like that, I think it isn't crazy.

If this command was written in the Qur'an or something similar...I guess you'd just have a lot less Muslims in the world.
 

RawPower

Banned
Their beliefs, as I understand them, are not Islamic beliefs. They believe in a new Prophet, they believe that Wallace Fard Mohammed is God, and they don't practice any of the 5 pillars, as far as I am aware anyway.

I read a bit more on Louis Farrakhan today.

Fuck that guy. He is not a Muslim.
 
I have only heard of a single Sunni Qadi who accepts them, and he did it in the name of politics. Do you know better than Ibn Kathir? Do you have no respect for him?

I will, and have, said it to their faces. Their beliefs constitute khufr. When you deny that the prayer is a fard, you are disbelieving in the religion of Mohammed (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam).

If you believe in the trinity, you are not a Muslim. Simple really.

I don't really care much for these religious threads but this kinda piqued my interest.
I assume this dude is a scholar of some sort, but why would it be disrespectful to disagree with a random scholar?
Or heck, a renown scholar?

In my experience, Muslims seems to bring up what scholars have written or said more than what it is written in the Qu'ran.
 

Smellycat

Member
If they say they are muslim, they are muslim. That simple. No matter what they believe.

That's how it's always been told to me when I ask why people ignore bits of the Qur' an.

(Nice to see you back BTW)

Not really. If they believe in the concept of trinity and associate others with God, then they are definitely not Muslims. The simplest definition of a muslim is a person who believes that there is no God but Allah, and that Mohammad is His last messenger. If you start messing with that definition, then you are taking yourself out of the Muslim circle.

Why should Muslims recognize people that have these pagan beliefs? If you recognize these people as Muslims then you are also saying that what they believe in is compatible with Islamic beliefs.

Also, accepting certain groups for the sake of "Arab nationalism" is ridiculous. God doesn't care about the unity of Arabs, here cares about the unity of Muslims and how they treat people around them. To place Arab nationalism ahead of Muslim unity is just wrong.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
The foremost and the most important, and the most fundamental, aspect of Islam is to believe in Allah SWT as the one true God.

Any sort of deviation of that or any interpretations that differ from that central core belief cannot be considered as Islam.

In any event, I recently did a little bit of digging and research into the whole Prophet Muhammad SAW marrying Aisya at the age of 9 since "Muhammad is a pedophile" is an attack often used to besmirch his and Islam's reputation as a whole.

Interestingly it looks like the one's responsible of telling the story that became the basis for the whole "marrying a 9 years old" was a person with very questionable credibility and the account of the story itself has many different contradictions. Hmmm.
 
I don't really care much for these religious threads but this kinda piqued my interest.
I assume this dude is a scholar of some sort, but why would it be disrespectful to disagree with a random scholar?
Or heck, a renown scholar?
He said 'I have no respect for anyone who holds said opinion', ibn Kathir, one who knows far more than anyone here, had said opinion, declaring them as pagans. So in that context, I say he has no respect for ibn Kathir because he said he has no respect for him.

In my experience, Muslims seems to bring up what scholars have written or said more than what it is written in the Qu'ran.
Often this is the case, because scholarship is central to the religion. Scholars are the guard of the religion and the traditions of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). Just as anyone can become a scholar, no one should act as though they are scholar that are not.
 
Often this is the case, because scholarship is central to the religion. Scholars are the guard of the religion and the traditions of the Prophet (sullAllahu alayhi wasalaam). Just as anyone can become a scholar, no one should act as though they are scholar that are not.
This is so true and reminds me of one of Abu 's (RA) greatest sayings.

"He who speaks of Islam and does not think he will have to account for what he says does not know the meaning of Islam".
 

Fady K

Member
This is so true and reminds me of one of Abu 's (RA) greatest sayings.

"He who speaks of Islam and does not think he will have to account for what he says does not know the meaning of Islam".

This was one of the most important things that I've learned in general. Most of the knowledgeable Muslims I know, despite how much they know about a certain issue, end their point with "Wallahu A'lam (And Allah knows best)". The problem lies with those who pass off information as "facts", not realizing how they are accounted for big time.
 
This was one of the most important things that I've learned in general. Most of the knowledgeable Muslims I know, despite how much they know about a certain issue, end their point with "Wallahu A'lam (And Allah knows best)". The problem lies with those who pass off information as "facts", not realizing how they are accounted for big time.


Truth.
 
America's top military officer has condemned a course taught about Islam at one of America's top military schools as "totally objectionable". It is not surprising. The story, first broken by Wired, is fairly astonishing, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, must be furious. The course taught officers there was no such thing as moderate Islam and that they should consider the religion their enemy. It advocated "total war" against all the world's Muslims, including possible nuclear attacks on the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and the wiping out civilian populations.​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
America's top military officer has condemned a course taught about Islam at one of America's top military schools as "totally objectionable". It is not surprising. The story, first broken by Wired, is fairly astonishing, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, must be furious. The course taught officers there was no such thing as moderate Islam and that they should consider the religion their enemy. It advocated "total war" against all the world's Muslims, including possible nuclear attacks on the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and the wiping out civilian populations.​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105

Utterly disgusting and incredibly despicable.

When they taught stuff like this in the army and the FBI as well, you begin to wonder just how much or how many people in power holding that kind of view.
 

Ashes

Banned
America's top military officer has condemned a course taught about Islam at one of America's top military schools as "totally objectionable". It is not surprising. The story, first broken by Wired, is fairly astonishing, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Martin Dempsey, must be furious. The course taught officers there was no such thing as moderate Islam and that they should consider the religion their enemy. It advocated "total war" against all the world's Muslims, including possible nuclear attacks on the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and the wiping out civilian populations.​

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18030105

Hmm.
 

Yasir

Member
I don't really care much for these religious threads but this kinda piqued my interest.
I assume this dude is a scholar of some sort, but why would it be disrespectful to disagree with a random scholar?
Or heck, a renown scholar?

In my experience, Muslims seems to bring up what scholars have written or said more than what it is written in the Qu'ran.

It's because the scholars are regarded as the inheritors of the Anbiya (the prophets) in knowledge, and their understanding and teaching is of a greater magnitude in comparison to laymen of today.

The reason why the Quran is considered such a miracle is in it's complexity, from a man who was known to be illiterate. To derives rulings from it, you need to be a mujtahid meaning someone qualified to exercise ijtihad, which means having the competence to infer expert legal rulings from foundational proofs. You have to know the Quran, it's context to the sira (life of the prophet, and events taking place when certain parts of the Quran were revealed), understanding of hadith, etc.

So we can derive rulings from the greatest of scholars and live a peace loving and tolerant Islam, or we can begin deriving rulings from the Quran directly and live a Al-Qaeda/Taliban/Wahaabi terror loving, blood thirsty Islam.

Or thereabouts :p
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
There are some that say that the Wahhabi movement for example is out of the fold of Islam because of their anthropomorphising God.

I don't know if this is something that you personally believe, but you shouldn't toss around random statements like that.

Wahhabis are not mujasimma (anthropomorphists). They only follow the teachings recorded by Ibn Mandah, Al-Lalika'ee, Al-Khallal, and Al-Sabooni. I'm not sure if any of those names sound familiar to you, but really should look up their works before you unintentionally bash the early fuqaha and muhaditheen.
 
I don't know if this is something that you personally believe, but you shouldn't toss around random statements like that.

Wahhabis are not mujasimma (anthropomorphists). They only follow the teachings recorded by Ibn Mandah, Al-Lalika'ee, Al-Khallal, and Al-Sabooni. I'm not sure if any of those names sound familiar to you, but really should look up their works before you unintentionally bash the early fuqaha and muhaditheen.

I am merely repeating one opinion of various scholars. Namely that one who understands God to have 'hands' is no better than a Christian.
 
Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(
 

Darackutny

Junior Member
I am merely repeating one opinion of various scholars.

Which tree hugger are you talking about? =p

Al-Shafi'ee a Christian too? He said that Allah has hands. Nobody called him an anthorpomorphist.


Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

Those things seem to come naturally for me the more I learn about Islam. Knowledge will make you take these things more seriously.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

Just take it slowly, dude.

Do whatever you can first, little by little. Don't force yourself on doing everything at once. For example, pray 1 times... pray 2 times... pray 3 times.... Or just read one page or even just a verse of Al-Qur'an a day. Let yourself getting accustomed doing easy/light stuff first before moving on to something better.

Just take it easy, little by little.

But whatever you do though, I sincerely hope you are not letting Islam go altogether :)
 

F#A#Oo

Banned
Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

As Laughing Banana said take it slowly.

Try praying in congregration as much as possible. Wife, friends and family. If you're at work get work colleagues to join you too. More importantly though is try to go mosque when you know it doesn't clash with work.

If you have a phone you can download one of the many Qu'ran apps and you can read when ever you get a few minutes. I usually read before bed. A few minutes is better than no time spent.

Take your time but make sure you set some goals for yourself. Ramadan is just around the corner too so I'm sure you'll get back into the swing of things soon. :p
 

Kad5

Member
One thing I have recently learned is that the Quran is more important to me than the hadith. And honestly I don't really pay much attention to hadith at all. The Quran is the first and most important book to me.

And in addition to Islam I have incorporated some buddhist philosophies into my beliefs which are honestly fundamentally similar to what Islam is about in the first place.

God to me is very much like in panentheist beliefs. That God is everything in the universe as a collective and infinitely more. Infinitely one. The creative forces. And we are all a part of it and yet we are nothing to it like ants or an individual cell.
 
Guys I'm becoming Muslim by name only...I avoid all the sinful acts, but I simply dont pray 5 times and even missing friday prayers (due to work, but that's no excuse). I haven't read Quran in months. What should I do :(

I find that whenever I find myself slipping, I seek out pious people. Being in the company of devout people, of good character, is the best medicine. Missing Friday prayers is also something that drives non-observance, at least in my experience.

That you post here means that it worries you. That you avoid sinful acts mean that it isn't a problem with your character either. If you feel able to, seek out a local imam that you trust, they are usually a good source of aid, but it always comes down to the self in the end.

Insha'Allah you are given tawfiq, you are in my dua :)
 
Top Bottom