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Is the Zelda series REALLY formulaic? Is it in need of an overhaul?

M

mooooose

Member
My friend and I are in the middle of an argument, he is suggesting that Zelda does a good job of keeping the game fresh and innovative (new coat of paint, new dungeon puzzles and mechanics, Majora's Mask being a very different game from the rest, Wind Waker's art style, Skyward Sword's motion controls and puzzles), while keeping true to what people like about it in the first place.

What do you guys think? Do you think the games, mechanically all very similar, could use a Metroid Prime like re imagining? What COULD Nintendo do, other than making some sort of Skyrim-on-a-smaller-scale ripoff? What would you want out of a new 3D Zelda?
 
S

Spierek

Member
Zelda is Zelda because of the similar game mechanics. I'm okay with the series staying as it is, just give me Wind Waker/Majora's Mask on 3DS and a new title on the Wii U.
 
M

MutFox

Banned
Skyward Sword was awesome...
Except for the excessive hand holding and fetch quests...
That brought the game down a lot for me...

It was so close to being my favorite Zelda...

Once you get used to the Motion Controls,
you could just destroy enemies...
 
D

Darryl

Banned
i agree with your friend. they do a good job. it doesn't need a reimaginging, if anything it needs to go more back-to-the-basics
 
G

gnrmjd

Member
Im the friend in question, and this argument came out of an article citing 3D Zelda as an example for a game that doesn't innovate and where the formula has grown tired, which I disagreed upon. I think Zelda has a great feel to it and I think each game felt fresh and changed it up just enough where it was still Zelda but felt new.

I suppose if they really wanted to change it up though, I wouldn't be opposed to them aiming for the plot first. They've done a BIT with that in TP and I think they did more in SS (didnt play it all yet) but Id go crazy with it. Make a really good plot. Maybe even make Link talk, who knows? A Zelda game with a very deep plot could be cool. Change the feel of the game but keeping the dungeons and stuff. I think that would be pretty sick.
 
S

Sandfox

Member
Nintendo just needs to take the legit complaints about SS and work from there; the basic formula is still good.
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
Zelda needs:

1. Coherent overworld that isn't barren (so not WW, TP, or SS).
2. More challenging and dynamic combat.
3. More of everything to explore.

I would personally love to see them move away from Z-Targeting and come up with something fresh.
 
K

Kyon

Banned
Make dungeon weapons useful outside dungeons for fraks sakes. Give Link combos with his sword not just the same swings from all the other games make combat FUN and flashy. Remake Majoras Mask and all is forgiven
 
M

mrkgoo

Member
I still love the Zelda formula.

I don't play a ton of games any more, but I always make an exception to play the next zelda.

I suppose I might be annoyed if they came out like twice every year.
 
I

Instro

Member
Are they? The handheld games are generally very different from the console counterparts, and the console games come once every 4 years. There's nothing that really needs to be changed about the basic mechanics of the Zelda. What the series needs is a bit of modernization when it comes to storytelling/presentation, a more living breathing town hub, and less handholding.
 
L

LonelyGreyWolf

Banned
mooooose said:
... Zelda does a good job of keeping the game fresh and innovative (new coat of paint, new dungeon puzzles and mechanics, Majora's Mask being a very different game from the rest, Wind Waker's art style, Skyward Sword's motion controls and puzzles), while keeping true to what people like about it in the first place.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. In a lot of franchises, the sequel is pretty much an expansion pack to the game before it, while in Zelda, (almost) every sequel is completely different. Compare Majora's Mask with Twilight Princess with Skyward Sword with Spirit Tracks. All games look distinctly different, have a different story-line -- but most importantly, the gameplay differ greatly.
 
A

Aostia

El Capitan Todd
The problem in Zelda series is that, nowadays where you have tons of guided experiences (like Cod, but also Uncharted and many many other games where you are really pushed by the game from an "action area" to tne next one) a game like Zelda where you have to challenge the mind of the game developer in order to analyze, understand and then take action only after the puzzle solving approach, is tiring and boring (for most people).
The most important example is Tomb Raider: it used to be an adventure game as Zelda where you had to solve the construction logic of the landscape to progress; now it seems to be an Uncharted clone with tons of action and cinematographic camera approach, and people seems to love it
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
Aostia said:
The problem in Zelda series is that, nowadays where you have tons of guided experiences (like Cod, but also Uncharted and many many other games where you are really pushed by the game from an "action area" to tne next one) a game like Zelda where you have to challenge the mind of the game developer in order to analyze, understand and then take action only after the puzzle solving approach, is tiring and boring (for most people).
The most important example is Tomb Raider: it used to be an adventure game as Zelda where you had to solve the construction logic of the landscape to progress; now it seems to be an Uncharted clone with tons of action and cinematographic camera approach, and people seems to love it
Click to expand...

Except I think people's biggest problem with SS is the handholding and lack of freedom.
 
F

farnham

Banned
it is partly formulaic but that is not unique to zelda. i dont hear people complaining about gears for example and i feel gears 3 and 3 were more of the same even to a larger extent
 
E

Eusis

Member
The ultimate appeal of Zelda to me is that it's structure non-linearity: you generally have to get things in a certain order unless you really learn to game the system, but each time you get a new item or ability otherwise more of the world opens to you, and you poke around that and find stuff that either boosts you or opens up more of the world. I'd like to see them go back and build off of that general idea, I feel the games have become too stiflingly linear and beholden by plot or just MacGuffins, but at the same time full blown Elder Scrolls-style open is no good, that's not what I want out of Zelda-esque design. That, and changing all sorts of little, subtle things can help make the games feel fresh even though not much changed, IE dumping/changing the camera pans (with the Game Pad make it so you see that on the controller but not the TV, and keep full control?) and the current transition from room to room.

Alternatively: if you're not going to make things more open again, completely abandon the MacGuffin hunt and just go more story focused. The reasons we had the MacGuffins we did in Zelda dungeons was because we needed something to bind the game so you didn't just run into the final dungeon or whatever, especially as LTTP and beyond used it so you'd sort of have a learning period (first three dungeons) then the period where the game really opens up (however many dungeons afterwards). But if you use story more THAT is the binding, and thus anything resembling that MacGuffin hunt should be abandoned. However, I really haven't cared that much for the stories of any installment without Koizumi on board, so either get him on board or don't bother, especially if you want to follow the core Zelda plot that we've seen done about 10 times now.
 
D

Dr.Hadji

Member
I'd say almost every videogame series is formulaic, that's mostly how they're recognized as a series. I think Zelda gets dinged for it more than other series is because Nintendo makes Zeldas as games first and experiences second. And a certain section of gamers, ones who put feel, immersion, and story first, feel that sticking to that formula is holding the series back (who know the type, the ones who feel MM is a last Zelda game that took any risks).
 
D

DXB-KNIGHT

Member
I guess the next Zelda will have a huge change kinda like FireEmblem since Nintendo seems to be bothered by the continuous decline of the series sales especially in Japan.
 
B

Bjoern the Smexy

Member
linkratos said:
I would personally love to see them move away from Z-Targeting and come up with something fresh.
Click to expand...

By removing Z-targeting you would almost never be able to hit the enemy correctly, if at all.

Skyward Sword ahad a bit of auto-aiming when you didn't Z-target, but that didn't work so well...

Also, other games (like Dark Souls for example) use Z-targeting because, let's face it, the game would be fucking unwinnable without it.


Nintendo should stand by its Zelda formular, but I agree that the overworld needs to be roughly equal in size of Twilight Princess's, but with more stuff to do and more places to visit.

HD towns, Nintendo. Do it.
 
E

encephalon

Member
If Demon's Souls could create such a great combat system without motion controls, I don't see why Zelda can't. Maybe we're beyond the point of no return, but I'd like to see something similar (with an entirely different feel to it).
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
Bjoern the Smexy said:
By removing Z-targeting you would almost never be able to hit the enemy correctly, if at all.

Skyward Sword ahad a bit of auto-aiming when you didn't Z-target, but that didn't work so well...

Also, other games (like Dark Souls for example) use Z-targeting because, let's face it, the game would be fucking unwinnable without it.


Nintendo should stand by its Zelda formular, but I agree that the overworld needs to be roughly equal in size of Twilight Princess's, but with more stuff to do and more places to visit.

HD towns, Nintendo. Do it.
Click to expand...

I mean it should be replaced by another type of combat that doesn't need targeting. Something more arcadey like the 2D games. If it's gonna lack challenge it may as well be fast-paced and exciting.

Instro said:
What do you mean by freedom?
Click to expand...

Mainly the interconnectedness of the world. I get the vibe people didn't like the segmentation of the different regions.
For me that personally killed a lot of hype.
 
O

OceanBlue

Member
DXB-KNIGHT said:
I guess the next Zelda will have a huge change kinda like FireEmblem since Nintendo seems to be bothered by the continuous decline of the series sales especially in Japan.
Click to expand...

What was the huge change for Fire Emblem? I'm not too familiar with the series. Isn't it the same style of game for the most part with a few different mechanics like reclassing, a different magic system in different games, and shoving/rescuing?
 
A

AzaK

Member
I think it's fine. They mix it up a bit and just keep the basic formula which is OK. That said I wouldn't mind if they went nuts.
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
Sandfox said:
Nintendo just needs to take the legit complaints about SS and work from there; the basic formula is still good.
Click to expand...
ViiLG.png
 
J

JODOROWSKY51

Member
Personally I just think the Zelda team need to have a break. It can't be good for creativity when you're stuck in the same place for so long.

They should do what Double Fine did, as in break up into smaller teams and make interesting little games.

Also, I'd like to see a Zelda compilation where different developers have their take on Zelda. So we could see a futuristic Zelda, a re-imagining of Zelda 2 and some interesting art styles etc
 
P

polyh3dron

Banned
Tron#1 said:
all I know is nintendo "BETTER" use that E3 2011 Artstyle for Zelda Wii U. If they pull what they did on Gamecube (although WW was a great game) it will turn a lot of people off.
Click to expand...
There's no way they can pull off that look in an actual game on Wii U, calling it now.
 
P

peakish

Member
As I see it the main formula that's kept between the games is that dungeons and new areas are accessed in a linear fashion (well that and going through standard forest, mountain and desert settings in every game - I could do without revisiting them in the future). I could see the argument made for making it more open in this sense, bringing some exploration back into the series (as open as WW was I didn't think there was a lot to actually discover in it), but I was also quite satisfied with the denser and linear areas of SS. They had some great stuff in there making up for the lazy dowsing mechanic.
 
linko9

linko9

Member
I know it's been said many times over, but I do wish they would take more inspiration from the original game in the next installment. Just dump you in a densely packed world full of secrets, and have you figure stuff out for yourself.
 
R

redcrayon

Member
For a series that comes out every 4 years or so, I think it's fine, but a few tweaks here and there would be good.

A main one for me is an interesting overworld - Skyward Sword and TP gave you little reason to go anywhere if it wasn't related to the immediate plot.

Also, cut right back on allied NPCs- the first few Zeldas it was you against the world, now you usually have a support network of half a dozen comic relief characters. They kill the tone for me.

As to what they could do on the WiiU, I'm happy just to see Zelda like LTTP or OOT in HD. Just Link, 8 dungeons, a sword a bow, an epic plot and amazing visuals. What I don't want is gimmicks like trains and flying.
 
D

Darryl

Banned
Tron#1 said:
all I know is nintendo "BETTER" use that E3 2011 Artstyle for Zelda Wii U. If they pull what they did on Gamecube (although WW was a great game) it will turn a lot of people off.
Click to expand...

throw in a dash more of whatever cel-shading those fire emblem cutscenes were using
 
D

Deleted member 125677

Unconfirmed Member
I think most people will regard playing Zelda in HD as overhaul enough for the first Wii U game. It's also a perfect genre for the gamepad. But an open-world Zelda would be amazing at some time!
 
D

Doctor Decimate

Member
Zelda games have a certain rhythm, though i would say your friend is correct in that Nintendo does always find a way to make the games feel fresh (though i don't think i'd say "innovative").

i notice you didn't mention Twilight Princess, and one of the main complaints i have with that game is that it didn't feel fresh. maybe that goes to show how thin of a line there is separating a Zelda game from feeling stale or not; take away the motion controls, the art style, the time mechanic, and what are you actually left with? it's all kind of similar, well-made or not.

it doesn't help that Twilight Princess starts out quite slow. that's kind of a hallmark of ALL Zelda games, and the thing they need to change most. the opening tutorial in the village, the first two temples being fire and forest and the third sometimes being water...this is tradition, but why is tradition so important? all it creates is a sense of familiarity and comfort, and i think the general Zelda mechanics already do that. if they really decided to do something radically different then i could see keeping the usual tutorial/forest/fire progression, but right now it's just pointless.

and as far as progression goes, i think Skyward Sword took a few important steps in the right direction. the game really changed up how some of the usual Zelda tropes work, and eliminated others entirely. of course, when Nintendo stepped out of their comfort zone, there were more wrinkles that didn't get ironed out. but contrary to all the hate this game gets on NeoGAF for some reason, it's definitely moving toward something different, hopefully for the better.

in short, they need to get rid of some of the more pointless Zelda traditions. at this point they've heaped so much baggage regarding expectations on these games that it's a wonder they do anything different at all.
 
D

Dion Blaster

Member
EDIT: God yes, the intros need to be cut down immensely. No longer than OoT's.

Instro said:
Enter Platinum Games.
Click to expand...

That'd be a great place to have them help! the combat doesn't need to be as hardcore as Bayonetta but it could use a solid foundation like it to build on.
 
N

nubbe

Member
Well, Zelda is an adventure/puzzle game

Don't know if I'd want it to be like Ninja Gaiden or protect Link from being raped

But they do need to take a step back and go more basic. When you feel the need to hold the players hand through out the whole game... you are fucking wrong.
 
I

IdreamofHIME

Member
Make the start less boring and keep the pacing exciting and Skyward Sword would instantly rise to the upper echelons of the series.
The world, the story, the combat, the dungeons and especially the art style are all great. The game is just very "plodding" at times. Wind Waker suffered from the same thing.
 
Randomizer

Randomizer

Member
Zelda is my probably my favourite series so I believe the formula is still good, they just need to get rid of the bloat and make some good side quests again. Majora's Mask was basically 70% sidequests and that's part of the reason I love it. Because it certainly isn't for its dungeons.

I still loved Skyward sword but it certainly had issues. The biggest problems with SS are the overly long opening, terrible overworld, boring sidequests and incessant hand holding. Don't tell me how to solve a puzzle before it even starts, where the fuck is the satisfaction in that?

If they address these problems along with the added benefit of HD graphics Zelda U could be amazing. Damn it now you got me hyped thinking about it lol. Happens with every new Zelda I hype it up expecting it top OOT and become my new favourite game but it never happens. The potential is there but they always mess something up.
 
S

Sapphire Dreams

Member
I need a Zelda game with no motion controls, but that's probably what's gonna happen seeing the New Wii U pad.

However, I want a more detailed overworld, less instanced areas and a more open world experience.
 
A

Azheim

Neo Member
I'd be much happier with the variations-on-a-theme approach to Zelda game design if they'd just make the game more challenging.

For me, the latest console titles have lost any sense of danger. I'm decent at video games, but I'm not exceptional. I didn't die once in Twilight Princess, nor did I ever feel like I was going to (except at the end, before I figured out how to beat the final boss.) I could say the same of Skyward Sword, only I haven't beaten it yet. I stopped playing, I believe somewhere near the end, out of sheer boredom. No matter how big or scary the enemies I fight are, I always feel safe.

I've also lost any feeling of wonder. In Skyward Sword, in particular, the game always makes it so painfully obvious what you're supposed to do next that it turns puzzle solving becomes a chore, and exploration becomes a fetch quest, with gates to keep you on the proper trail.

For me, the thrill of the older Zelda games (and most games, for that matter) came from defeating enemies and solving puzzles that had beaten me and baffled me before. Without challenge, you develop an expectation that you will be able to quickly overcome any obstacle that you encounter, and this expectation takes away much of the satisfaction of defeating those obstacles.
 
the androgyne

the androgyne

Member
I want them to make a Zelda game where you just choose dungeons from a menu, they dump you in with whatever items you need and that's it. No story!
 
S

scar tissue

Banned
Make the dungeons/bosses less formulaic. Yes, there was Jabu-Jabu and the yeti house, but at its core, the dungeons follow the same blueprint.

*Note: I have not played SS, so I can't comment on that.
 
P

peakish

Member
Randomizer said:
If they address these problems along with the added benefit of HD graphics Zelda U could be amazing. Damn it now you got me hyped thinking about it lol. Happens with every new Zelda I hype it up expecting it top OOT and become my new favourite game but it never happens. The potential is there but they always mess something up.
Click to expand...
The hype thing has definitely made me vary of thinking too much about what a game could be and instead focusing on what it is. Complaining about problems in a game is of course always legitimate (eg. the boring overworld in SS), but it's a bit unfair to hold what we get up to an ideal of a certain type of game they could have made - that's just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Of course this goes for all games, but because of reasons it sticks out to me a lot more in Zelda discussions, everyone having their own vision of where they want the series to go.
 
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