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VGLeaks: Durango's Move Engines

daveo42

Banned
No. It's like being able to transfer data from your main memory on PC to your GPU memory without using up CPU or GPU time. And while transparently doing some compression/decompression. Useful, but by no means groundbreaking.

And entirely unnecessary in a true UMA system such as Orbis.

Thanks for the clarification. Still not a bad system, but it seems like more work arounds to deal with hardware limitations. I wonder why MS went with this instead of trying something a little more straight forward. Longer buildup till it reaches its graphical plateau?
 
These don't sound like they are adding any kind of computational power to the hardware.

But they do seem to eliminate bandwidth bottlenecks.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Of the hardware pieces of Durango that we know about, are we just waiting on hearing about the hardware planes?
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
These don't sound like they are adding any kind of computational power to the hardware.

But they do seem to eliminate bandwidth bottlenecks.

Depends on a lot things the JPEG compression isnt going to do much unless your completely starved for bandwidth, i put the peak or near peak rate for it in post at the top of the page.
 

scently

Member
Thanks for the clarification. Still not a bad system, but it seems like more work arounds to deal with hardware limitations. I wonder why MS went with this instead of trying something a little more straight forward. Longer buildup till it reaches its graphical plateau?

Mostly because the wanted to use 8gb of RAM without breaking the bank for gddr5.
 
Depends on a lot things the JPEG compression isnt going to do much unless your completely starved for bandwidth, i put the peak or near peak rate for it in post at the top of the page.

Of course, but they have 4 of them, and only one of them is handling JPEG compression.
 
But in the end, even in that idealized scenario, you are still using more memory bandwidth than Orbis, which simply reads only the parts of the texture it needs from its one memory pool.

I wasn't really comparing anything to anything XD

But yeah, even in the best scenario durango would have less available bandwidth than orbis...
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
So is that good or not? :/

it depends on a context for good.

But I would say if you reached the peak bandwidth they would help as they would allow you to compress the data being sent over even if the amount is small.

Useful?, sure, but its not godly.
 

daveo42

Banned
Mostly because the wanted to use 8gb of RAM without breaking the bank for gddr5.

I think they could have done better with another split-ram solution if they didn't want to throw everything into GDDR5. A 4:1 or even 2:1 ratio of DDR3 to GDDR5 (4GB:1GB or 4GB:2GB) would have been better. larger VRAM with a higher throughput, even at the cost of including a separate bus for the GDDR5.

Is the cost difference really there after all the development costs involved with making a much more customized mainboard and architecture?
 
Has anybody addressed the claim that the extreme-tech guy layed down about it being unlikely that Durango could hit even 68GB/s with its DDR3?

Here’s where I have to pause and note an eyebrow-raising claim for the next-generation Xbox. According to leaked specs, the console will offer 8GB of RAM and 68GB/s of memory bandwidth. To put that in perspective, Intel’s Sandy Bridge-E processors, with quad-channel memory support, only offer up to 51.2GB/s of bandwidth using DDR3-1600. The only way to hit 68GB/s is to use a quad-channel memory controller and DDR3-2133. Is that technically possible? Absolutely. But given that console manufacturers are reportedly pursuing $399 and $499 SKUs for launch, it’s a surprisingly aggressive target.
 

Withnail

Member
Seems like the first thing on the spec sheet was 8GB of affordable RAM and then the rest is a attempt get acceptable performance out of it.

Let's hope MS's tools live up to expectations because this is looking like a console that will take special developer effort.

edit: what's the last part about GPU time slicing, is that normal? So the GPU is not always available to the game? Doesn't sound good.
 

derFeef

Member
Really? So no "magic" custom chips that make lowly gfx cards perform miracles? How utterly surprising.

There will not be anything that makes the GPU perform "magically" better. This whole part of the leaks is getting blown up artificially by the same people over and over again, and it's not even those that do want Durango to be a better machine than we currently "know" it is. It's quite the opposit.
 

Vestal

Gold Member
Seems like the first thing on the spec sheet was 8GB of affordable RAM and then the rest is a attempt get acceptable performance out of it.

Let's hope MS's tools live up to expectations because this is looking like a console that will take special developer effort.

edit: what's the last part about GPU time slicing, is that normal? So the GPU is not always available to the game? Doesn't sound good.

Not that I am in the camp of those that believe these specs are the real deal and set in stone. However even with these specs I will give Microsoft some leeway since they are IMO the best company when it comes to offering developer tools and know how. They bend over backwards in regards to providing every nook and cranny documented to developers.
 
Not that I am in the camp of those that believe these specs are the real deal and set in stone. However even with these specs I will give Microsoft some leeway since they are IMO the best company when it comes to offering developer tools and know how. They bend over backwards in regards to providing every nook and cranny documented to developers.

They've always had better toolsets, but if the PS4 rumors are true for native OpenGL, then it's game, set, and match for Sony.
 

Ashes

Banned
Has anybody addressed the claim that the extreme-tech guy layed down about it being unlikely that Durango could hit even 68GB/s with its DDR3?

He's not saying it's unlikely. He is saying the strategy is aggressive where it comes to manufacturing etc..
 

Drek

Member
So in layman terms is this the jizz or not?

No. In layman's terms it's basically this (according to my interpretation):

You're moving to a new house, packing up everything you own and making a few trips to the new place to get it all moved.

With the PS4's solution, DDR5, you basically have a box truck that drives 70 mph everywhere all the time and can hold 4,000 pounds of your shit in a trip. When you get to your destination you need to unpack all of this shit too, at 1.8 tons an hour.

With the Xbox 360 you have a big box truck that can carry 8,000 pounds of your shit but it only drives at 28 mph. You also have a car that can carry 320 pounds of your shit and can drive at 41 mph. Once you get to your destination you have to unpack all your shit at only 1.2 tons an hour, but thankfully when you go to unpack your shit is already being sorted for you by a friend outside, helping to organize how you're receiving the stuff you unpack inside.

The Move Engines are that friend. They aren't going to do any of the unpacking (read: processing). They aren't going to carry any of your shit to the new place (read: memory). They just make everything run more smoothly, helping to reduce snags and bottlenecks.

If you were very diligent in how you packed either box truck you reduce the need for such a friend, but it's sure nice to have them no matter what. Chances are the PS4 will have some level of this same concept as well, though likely not to the same extent that MS is incorporating, since MS needs some way to get over the DDR3 bottleneck.

I'd say it's a further complication resulting from MS wanting 8 GB of memory and therefore going with clearly too slow DDR3. Move Engines, ESRam, etc. are all attempts to patch over that deficiency. This is also likely why MS is running them pre-programmed, because making developers have to manage this to avoid a bottleneck the PS4 doesn't have would be a pain in the ass.
 

jaosobno

Member
They've always had better toolsets, but if the PS4 rumors are true for native OpenGL, then it's game, set, and match for Sony.

I've read on several places that Sony's tools are on par with Microsoft ones and that the old adage of Microsoft having vastly better tools has been invalid for some time now.

There is no way that Sony will just drop PS4 into developer's lap and say "deal with it" (like they did with PS3).

In a way I'm starting to think that Durango has become PS3 of next gen - developers could quickly become annoyed with its complexity. Of course if Microsoft documents everything well (they will) some annoyance could be alleviated but not all. I guess time will tell.
 
The data sheet at vgleaks says they are 68gb/s, which would imply 2133. He is saying he is simply surprised by the choice since it is not common, simple as that.

He's not saying it's unlikely. He is saying the strategy is aggressive where it comes to manufacturing etc..

No, he's saying that the 720 would require both 2133 and a quad-channel controller to reach 68GB/s. Which would be aggressive considering they are aiming at a $350-$450 range.
 
Whats the DBZ power of these?

20e17c00041eefd28d31a6f58238fe7e.png


Yajirobe. He did his job cutting Vegeta's tail and flew away.
 

jaosobno

Member
No. In layman's terms it's basically this (according to my interpretation):

You're moving to a new house, packing up everything you own and making a few trips to the new place to get it all moved.

With the PS4's solution, DDR5, you basically have a box truck that drives 70 mph everywhere all the time and can hold 4,000 pounds of your shit in a trip. When you get to your destination you need to unpack all of this shit too, at 1.8 tons an hour.

With the Xbox 360 you have a big box truck that can carry 8,000 pounds of your shit but it only drives at 28 mph. You also have a car that can carry 320 pounds of your shit and can drive at 41 mph. Once you get to your destination you have to unpack all your shit at only 1.2 tons an hour, but thankfully when you go to unpack your shit is already being sorted for you by a friend outside, helping to organize how you're receiving the stuff you unpack inside.

The Move Engines are that friend. They aren't going to do any of the unpacking (read: processing). They aren't going to carry any of your shit to the new place (read: memory). They just make everything run more smoothly, helping to reduce snags and bottlenecks.

If you were very diligent in how you packed either box truck you reduce the need for such a friend, but it's sure nice to have them no matter what. Chances are the PS4 will have some level of this same concept as well, though likely not to the same extent that MS is incorporating, since MS needs some way to get over the DDR3 bottleneck.

I'd say it's a further complication resulting from MS wanting 8 GB of memory and therefore going with clearly too slow DDR3. Move Engines, ESRam, etc. are all attempts to patch over that deficiency. This is also likely why MS is running them pre-programmed, because making developers have to manage this to avoid a bottleneck the PS4 doesn't have would be a pain in the ass.

Brilliant analogy. Well done sir.
 

i-Lo

Member
So, it looks like these fixed function parts will work in parallel to ease the burden on GPU meaning gain in efficiency. That said, this "secret sauce" does not sound like the great "equalizer". Amazing what proelite sold us on.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Looks like the DMA units we expected. No more, no less.

Only thing that seems slightly odd is that they can't saturate the system's bandwidth, although I guess the idea is to use them for some copying around of data but not all.

Durango looks like a PS2 on steroids (the DMA move + JPEG decompression reminds me of what some develeopers did with the IPU sooo much) while Orbis looks like an Xbox on steroids HW architecture wise... I am not talking about shaders on the GPU or not or features in that sense, but general system architecture, memory pools, etc...
 

Vestal

Gold Member
Non-proprietary > proprietary. Especially since AMD is all for open-source projects.

Thats nice and all, but when it comes to accessibility to developers, ease of use and current use Direct3D destroys OpenGL.


DirectX is currently the Graphic standard by which the consumer Graphics Industry measures itself. Every single box you will find a DirectX compatibility rating.
 

Ashes

Banned
No. In layman's terms it's basically this (according to my interpretation):

You're moving to a new house, packing up everything you own and making a few trips to the new place to get it all moved.

With the PS4's solution, DDR5, you basically have a box truck that drives 70 mph everywhere all the time and can hold 4,000 pounds of your shit in a trip. When you get to your destination you need to unpack all of this shit too, at 1.8 tons an hour.

With the Xbox 360 you have a big box truck that can carry 8,000 pounds of your shit but it only drives at 28 mph. You also have a car that can carry 320 pounds of your shit and can drive at 41 mph. Once you get to your destination you have to unpack all your shit at only 1.2 tons an hour, but thankfully when you go to unpack your shit is already being sorted for you by a friend outside, helping to organize how you're receiving the stuff you unpack inside.

The Move Engines are that friend. They aren't going to do any of the unpacking (read: processing). They aren't going to carry any of your shit to the new place (read: memory). They just make everything run more smoothly, helping to reduce snags and bottlenecks.

If you were very diligent in how you packed either box truck you reduce the need for such a friend, but it's sure nice to have them no matter what. Chances are the PS4 will have some level of this same concept as well, though likely not to the same extent that MS is incorporating, since MS needs some way to get over the DDR3 bottleneck.

I'd say it's a further complication resulting from MS wanting 8 GB of memory and therefore going with clearly too slow DDR3. Move Engines, ESRam, etc. are all attempts to patch over that deficiency. This is also likely why MS is running them pre-programmed, because making developers have to manage this to avoid a bottleneck the PS4 doesn't have would be a pain in the ass.

My x360 doesn't do this. ;)
 
Being highly sceptical about this fixed HW, I only can find a logic to this being a free Kinnect handler.

JPEG is nothing you will use in your game engine. No alpha, too many artifacts, there are better and native formats out there with better compression rates.

IMHO can be the way to add Kinnect without affect system performance.

May it be?
 

Krabardaf

Member
Theses are great.
People assuming simpler hardware is de facto yielding better result should think twice. And for some, they should also remember how they were defending the PS3 architecture.
Extreme case of special hardware, nowhere near what Durango is shaping into, but look at what ND or Santa Monica is doing with theses SPE.


It is likely that the ESRAM+move engine route was expansive, and thus a matured choice. They could have gone for GDDR5 too but haven't, and I do not think price is the only explanation.

Bandwidth is a (important) thing, but i'm sure the setup Microsoft engineers went with have an advantage over GDRR5 somewhere. The ability to transfer data while GPU is busy points in that direction i suppose.
 

Cuth

Member
Seems like the first thing on the spec sheet was 8GB of affordable RAM and then the rest is a attempt get acceptable performance out of it.

[...]
I still have some difficulties to combine this (completely believable IMHO) reasoning with the rumor that MS raised the specs after complaints by devs. The initial idea was to use 4 GB of DDR3? An even more underpowered GPU? What happened to MS in the last 10 years? edit: maybe more like 5 years :)
 
Being highly sceptical about this fixed HW, I only can find a logic to this being a free Kinnect handler.

JPEG is nothing you will use in your game engine. No alpha, too many artifacts, there are better and native formats out there with better compression rates.

IMHO can be the way to add Kinnect without affect system performance.

May it be?


I don't think this sounds like anything that is being used for Kinect purposes. Kinect isn't the answer to everything.

This is just a by product of a less than exciting design priority. Lots of ram for non gaming purposes.

They'll both be SoCs I reckon. It's just Sony makes hardware, you know? Big territorial advantage.

I don't see it, Sony doesn't know more about hardware than IBM, AMD etc

Which is where MS hired people from. And are the companies Sony is working with to develop their console.
 
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