Support NeoGAF

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer I refuse to believe you are anything but a joke poster, how in the world can you fault them for actually delivering on their promise of backwards compatibility and embrace of open standards for peripherals. I take it from your tone that you're glad MS went the proprietary route? You're glad that your Guitar Hero controller will be wired for that very reason? You're calling Sony incompetent for including a standard 2.5" SATA hard drive and bending over backwards cost-wise to ensure proper backwards compatibility and making every effort to reduce that cost on their end?

I don't mean to sound overly apologetic on behalf of Sony but I'm having a very hard time believing someone could actually say what you're saying in complete honesty

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

Look . . . I view a lot of this stuff from a biz perspective since I invest in this space. (That's why I often refer to companies using their ticker symbols such as MSFT, ATVI, TTWO, etc.) Having near 100% BC is great for consumers. Of course selling the PS3 for $50 would also be great for consumers. But I'd laugh at that too since it would be an amazingly bad biz decision by Sony.

So I'm happy you all love the great BC system in the PS3 (and it does work very well, especially with the recent firmware updates.). I just think it was a very bad business decision by Sony. And though the MSFT BC system is lame (from a consumer standpoint) . . . I think it was a much better business decision by MSFT. I don't think BC support is hugely important. It is nice to have early in a console's cycle since very little software is available. But over time, it becomes less and less important. The xbox's BC support wouldn't even be an issue at this point if their 360 software library had more diversity. (where are the platformers?)

Sometimes the company biz & consumer views align . . . for example, the PS3 may have been cheaper had they opted to only do sofware BC. They wouldn't have wasted all that dev time & manufacturing expense for the EE+GS chip. So it might have actually been good for the consumer had they not gone that route. Most PS3 buyers would have already owned a PS2 anyway, they might not have cared about BC, and if they really wanted to run PS2 titles, they could pick up a $129.99 PS2.

So would you have rather paid $100 less for a PS3 and not had BC? I would say yes.

J-Rzez · Feb 5, 2007

kenta said:
speculawyer I refuse to believe you are anything but a joke poster, how in the world can you fault them for actually delivering on their promise of backwards compatibility and embrace of open standards for peripherals. I take it from your tone that you're glad MS went the proprietary route? You're glad that your Guitar Hero controller will be wired for that very reason? You're calling Sony incompetent for including a standard 2.5" SATA hard drive and bending over backwards cost-wise to ensure proper backwards compatibility and making every effort to reduce that cost on their end?

I don't mean to sound overly apologetic on behalf of Sony but I'm having a very hard time believing someone could actually say what you're saying in complete honesty

Goes to show that some people can not accept any good news about the PS3... even if they own it... Hating Sony is as cool as ice if you haven't caught on yet... It's disgusting the amount of spin people will try to do to try and deflate any good news Sony may have...

speculawyer said:
I just think it was a very bad business decision by Sony. And though the MSFT BC system is lame (from a consumer standpoint) . . . I think it was a much better business decision by MSFT. I don't think BC support is hugely important.

That is the WORST thing I've read here in a while... WORST... CONSUMER AND BUSINESS standpoints it's CRITICAL...

1.) Consumer standpoint: Your backlog of titles will carry on to be played later... not like the days with the NES games not being able to be played on your SNES... It's very valueable to people

2.) Business standpoint: Shows you care about your consumers and you appreciate how they invested in your product... also grants that software can still sell for prior systems for a while after a new console launches, which can band-aid poor launch libraries, plus not sway away from devs to drop support cold and could continue on their works so it's not a loss when a new console hits... I take it GoW2 is a bad thing by your reasoning..? Come On...

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

kenta said:
speculawyer I refuse to believe you are anything but a joke poster, how in the world can you fault them for actually delivering on their promise of backwards compatibility and embrace of open standards for peripherals.

Why? $599.99 The decisions Sony made have made the console very expensive. I want Sony to be more competitive so that MSFT doesn't become the overlord.

And breaking promises happens all the time. I'm sure people here can cite plenty of times Sony has broken promises. I hesitate to cite one since someone will jump on me if I don't get it exactly right.

kenta said:
I take it from your tone that you're glad MS went the proprietary route?

No, but that is what they did. And Sony has put themselves at a competetive disadvantage by not following.

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
So would you have rather paid $100 less for a PS3 and not had BC? I would say yes.

But you're imposing your own preferences on the entire market. You're assuming that since speculawyer doesn't care about BC then hey nobody else in the market for a PS3 or 360 cares about BC either! Which means Sony is automatically retarded for doing it, right?

Heck, take a look at the line I quoted right there: You're offering me $100 to take away the BC in my PS3 when a PS2 costs $130. I think I could find a PSX for $20 at GameCrazy, so with that proposition I'm still losing $50-60 with tax and I'd have to find room for two other consoles. I'd much rather pay $100 to have all three systems in one, that's just a better business decision on my end

BC is a big big deal to a lot of people

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

J-Rzez said:
That is the WORST thing I've read here in a while... WORST... CONSUMER AND BUSINESS standpoints it's CRITICAL...

Well, the free market disagrees with you.

J-Rzez · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
Well, the free market disagrees with you.

Just like MANY will disagree with you...? Seriously... are you encouraging a company to turn their back on prior customers? Automanufactures support their vehicles for a while after their production is up... why should it be any different anywhere else? Go tell them the Free market disagrees with them so they can laugh too...

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

kenta said:
But you're imposing your own preferences on the entire market. You're assuming that since speculawyer doesn't care about BC then hey nobody else in the market for a PS3 or 360 cares about BC either! Which means Sony is automatically retarded for doing it, right?

I didn't say my opinion was all important . . . it was just my opinion.

As you point out, it is what the market thinks that matters . . . and so far the market says that MSFT made the better decision.

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

J-Rzez said:
Just like MANY will disagree with you...? Seriously... are you encouraging a company to turn their back on prior customers? Automanufactures support their vehicles for a while after their production is up... why should it be any different anywhere else? Go tell them the Free market disagrees with them so they can laugh too...

If it is in their interest to drop support for a vehicle, they will do it. Business is business.

There are people who refuse to buy an xbox 360 because MSFT dropped support for the original xbox relatively quickly. So be it.

Tellaerin · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
Well, the free market disagrees with you.

So now the free market disagrees with decisions that may be more costly in the short term, but build consumer loyalty to the brand in the long term? Sounds more to me like someone's too focused on trying to maximize profits in the short term to see the bigger picture, and it's not the 'free market'.

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
No, but that is what they did. And Sony has put themselves at a competetive disadvantage by not following.

Competitive disadvantage by what standard though? You're still talking revenue since I assume you're factoring licensing fees into the equation as well as the obvious "everyone must now buy [company's] products" hence more money to line their pockets. But aside from that, it could be argued that Sony has a competitive advantage when a salesman says, "Oh hey that Bluetooth headset you're wearing right now works on the PS3 as well, you don't have to buy another peripheral. Same goes for a Bluetooth or USB keyboard you've got laying around."

So yep, while they leave a couple dollars on the table for not following the proprietary route, there is an absolute potential to gain a heck of a lot of favorable mindshare leading to a $600 purchase. And the whole point of this thread is that that $600 purchase will eventually include a profit for the company, something you seem to care so much about

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
As you point out, it is what the market thinks that matters . . . and so far the market says that MSFT made the better decision.

And we have -- count 'em -- two whole months under the PS3's belt. Meet my ignore list!

xaosslug · Feb 5, 2007

Wollan said:
They should have done it elegantly like MS ja?

:lol

Rufus · Feb 5, 2007

I say they cut their losses first. There's no sign so far that they're stepping away from their luxury policy on the PS3, unless I've missed a meeting or something.

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

kenta said:
Competitive disadvantage by what standard though?

Price. The lack of non-propreitary accessories and the cost of getting near 100% backwards compatibility is adding to the PS3 cost.

kenta said:
But aside from that, it could be argued that Sony has a competitive advantage when a salesman says, "Oh hey that Bluetooth headset you're wearing right now works on the PS3 as well, you don't have to buy another peripheral. Same goes for a Bluetooth or USB keyboard you've got laying around."

So yep, while they leave a couple dollars on the table for not following the proprietary route, there is an absolute potential to gain a heck of a lot of favorable mindshare leading to a $600 purchase. And the whole point of this thread is that that $600 purchase will eventually include a profit for the company, something you seem to care so much about

It is a decent argument and Sony should publicize it more. But so far, it hasn't helped much. Nor has the Blu-Ray capability since most people don't care about it right now. But in the future, Blu-Ray should help them more.

Anyway my original question was wondering what will happen with BC in the future . . . will titles that work under the current h/w BC system break under the future software-only system? I wonder.

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

kenta said:
And we have -- count 'em -- two whole months under the PS3's belt. Meet my ignore list!

Awww . . . so sorry you couldn't handle my opinion.

UltimaKilo · Feb 5, 2007

-Rogue5- said:
That's their plan... shrink Cell, eliminate ES+GS, combine wifi and bluetooth, then with the reducing in power/heat they can make the power supply and heatsink smaller... all of which reduces the production cost of the system. PSThree probably won't come until late 2k9 though.

Not soon enough.

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
Awww . . . so sorry you couldn't handle my opinion.

I can handle opinion, I can't handle bull-headedness and just plain ignorance

speculawyer · Feb 5, 2007

Wollan said:
They should have done it elegantly like MS ja?

:lol I don't think ANYTHING that MSFT does can be described as 'elegant'. :lol

It is pathetic that open-source MAME can emulate a ton of DIFFERENT arcade machines while the biggest software company in the world struggles to emulate a single 486 box.

MSFT has done a lousy job of it . . . but software emulation was the way to do it. And I do think Sony was foolish to spend so much time & effort to get h/w emulation working while planning on bailing on it.

Lain · Feb 5, 2007

The fact people keep arguing with him make this all too funny, altho kind of a waste.

bishoptl · Feb 5, 2007

nah, this thread wasn't a complete waste of time. Good derailment. I like that.

The Faceless Master · Feb 5, 2007

speculawyer said:
Why? $599.99 The decisions Sony made have made the console very expensive. I want Sony to be more competitive so that MSFT doesn't become the overlord.

And breaking promises happens all the time. I'm sure people here can cite plenty of times Sony has broken promises. I hesitate to cite one since someone will jump on me if I don't get it exactly right.

No, but that is what they did. And Sony has put themselves at a competetive disadvantage by not following.

DUAL HDMI

but seriously, do you own stock in Sony?

how can you be against standard 2.5" SATA HDD's???

kenta · Feb 5, 2007

haha, and bish leaves his mark with yet another title. I feel special for being a part of this one!

Wollan · Feb 6, 2007

(neutral) speculawyer
haha, no seriously...
ya gotta read this shit

Haha.

tanod · Feb 6, 2007

Does it need to be said that the Xbox 360 core has 0% Backwards compatibility?

travisbickle · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer said:
Price. The lack of non-propreitary accessories and the cost of getting near 100% backwards compatibility is adding to the PS3 cost.

How do you even know it's adding enough to cost to make a difference to consumers.

I also don't think they, Sony, want people that may be considering buying a PS3 to go get a PS2 for now because the PS3 has "backwards compatibility issues."

And Microsoft's BC is easily the worst decision they have made, it definately stopped me buying a 360, and probably the millions of potential customers that didn't by an xbox 1 but knew of the PS2s BC from the previous generation. You have to make your product better than your rivals previous one at least.

Also the proprietary formats, all the tech heads that are going to buy a PS3 now have blutooth products coming out of their ears, literallly, and as for the the harddrives, which is the bigger market, sata HDsales or Digital distribution?

Sony have made some very astute business decisions, they know the high percentage of people that are buying their product now are tech savy, they use ipods and blutooth headsets, they buy tunes online, they will install a large sata drive and take advantage of downloadable movies/games.

speculawyer · Feb 6, 2007

The Faceless Master said:
DUAL HDMI

I was gonna mention that one, but I'm sure if it was really a promise or just something that was mentioned as a possibility.

The Faceless Master said:
but seriously, do you own stock in Sony?

:lol Obviously not! :lol As a consumer, I really want them to improve things because a strong competitive marketplace is best for consumers. Right now, MSFT seems to have too much of a lead on them.

The Faceless Master said:
how can you be against standard 2.5" SATA HDD's???

Again . . . it is perspective. As a consumer, I LOVE the standard 2.5" SATA drive. In fact, I bought the 20Gb model because I know I can upgrade it myself (and I don't want to use wireless for gaming). But if I were a SNE (Sony) investor, I'd be annoyed at the use of a standard drive since SNE cannot pick up easy proprietary profits from people buying upgrades and Sony has to make the PS3 price higher because they cannot rely on thick-profit accessory sales to help subsidize the loss-leader price of the PS3.

The xbox 360 Core pack (AKA 'tard pack) is a bigger money loser for MSFT but they'll make up some of those losses when people buy wireless controllers, component/VGA cables, a hdd upgrade, memory cards, etc.

-Rogue5- · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer said:
Price. The lack of non-propreitary accessories and the cost of getting near 100% backwards compatibility is adding to the PS3 cost.

But they announced the price PRIOR to their final decision to put the ES-GS in... so really it only comes at a cost to Sony. And, at this point in time, I wouldn't be surprised if it was as little as $10 (or something retardedly low) for them to implement the ES+GS (100million+ units is a LOT of time to improve yeilds to crazy high %.) Hardly price-increase worthy.

OH, and it's still sold out at $600. From a business perspective it's kind of ridiculous to think that they wouldn't sell out of their product, regardless of the price, for the first 6 months (especially with a segregated launch between regions.) That's why your bitchin' and moaning and name calling doesn't hold water (yet.) Down the line, when sales start to slow down, if they don't price reduce or bundle, then your accusations of stupidity will be validated. Until then you look like a tool, who is just pissed that Sony is giving consumers what they want.

speculawyer said:
...Nor has the Blu-Ray capability since most people don't care about it right now. But in the future, Blu-Ray should help them more.

Blu-Ray sales say otherwise... as of January 7th they were up 700% since mid-November sales... Isn't that when the PS3 launched?

speculawyer · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer
haha, no seriously...
ya gotta read this shit
(Today, 04:05 PM)

:lol :lol

Woo-hoo, I got tagged!

tanod · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer said:
Look . . . I view a lot of this stuff from a biz perspective since I invest in this space. (That's why I often refer to companies using their ticker symbols such as MSFT, ATVI, TTWO, etc.)

I didn't sign up for Investor-Age.

Speculawyer = One-man thread-derailing crew

Kolgar · Feb 6, 2007

Heh, great derailment indeed.

Last week one of GAF's own dropped this little gem, which I positively adore:

PS3 is pure sex and a dream machine, but a very stupid business model.

That said, I nearly bought one tonight. Do you think there's any real reason to wait for the next rev of PS3 to hit stores before buying? Reliability seems pretty good for the launch systems and I've got an urge to pull the trigger now.

speculawyer · Feb 6, 2007

-Rogue5- said:
Blu-Ray sales say otherwise... as of January 7th they were up 700% since mid-November sales... Isn't that when the PS3 launched?

The PS3 has definitely helped Blu-Ray a lot! (In fact, I now predict that Blu-Ray will win the HD disc format war.) However . . . I do not believe Blu-Ray has helped the PS3 all that much.

I believe the number of stand alone HD-DVD players or Blu-Ray players is less than 100K in the USA. So PS3s make up the vast majority of high-def disc players.

inpHilltr8r · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer said:
It just looks like they made a decision to go with hardware aided backwards compability by creating the EE+GS chip

EE+GS was made to cost-reduce PS2, not to provide B/C for PS3. That's just a bonus.

speculawyer · Feb 6, 2007

Kolgar said:
That said, I nearly bought one tonight. Do you think there's any real reason to wait for the next rev of PS3 to hit stores before buying? Reliability seems pretty good for the launch systems and I've got an urge to pull the trigger now.

Blu-Ray is very nice, Resistance is a great game, I'd recommend NHL 2K7 too. But the machine is in dire need of some great software. Hopefully the March batch will help a lot with Motorstorm, F1, Lair(?), etc.

Kolgar · Feb 6, 2007

speculawyer said:
Blu-Ray is very nice, Resistance is a great game, I'd recommend NHL 2K7 too. But the machine is in dire need of some great software. Hopefully the March batch will help a lot with Motorstorm, F1, Lair(?), etc.

Yes, it's the BD capability that's changing my mind. I'm hooked on HD movies.

Someone earlier asked whether the EE+GS chips would simply "go dead" once PS2 compatibility is achieved through software, which got me wondering if first-gen PS3s may be disadvantaged down the line - i.e., perhaps NOT be able to provide the functionality of future firmware updates because they were first out of the gate.

Doubtful, but when you're dropping six big ones, you want to be sure.

Wollan · Feb 6, 2007

Kolgar said:
Doubtful, but when you're dropping six big ones, you want to be sure.

There won't be a disadvantage from buying it now or later this year based on hardware. Maybe you will save 100$ if you wait until November but is 100$ worth 10 months for you?

theBishop · Feb 6, 2007

TheIkariWarrior said:
if Sony does not significantly drop the price of PS3, it'll end up in last place. they HAVE to drop the price or lose lots of markshare to Microsoft and Nintendo.

I agree with you in principle. But Sony is still going to make a go at selling the system based on games. Resistance alone wasn't enough to hide the high price, but between now and Fall, a lot of games are going to come out. So they can (and should) give the PS3 a fighting chance before they start slashing the price.

I wouldn't expect a drop until after MGS4. That is, unless Konami has some kind of exclusivity deal that demands a certain baseline market share prior to release.

disappeared · Feb 6, 2007

The sooner they revise the hardware, allow for better cooling, and lower the price; the better for everyone. I hope we see this soon.

theBishop · Feb 6, 2007

disappeared said:
The sooner they revise the hardware, allow for better cooling, and lower the price; the better for everyone. I hope we see this soon.

what's wrong with the cooling?

KTallguy · Feb 6, 2007

Yea, I've had basically 0 problems with my PS3 since day one.

I just want more games now.

It'll be nice when they release revisions for the consumer to make the system cheaper/quieter/produce less heat/etc. But as it stands, PS3 doesn't have a failure rate anywhere near 360 (I guess they learned after the PS2 days).

Bring on the games guys! VF5, Armored Core 4, Motorstorm, Heavenly Sword, Lair!

disappeared · Feb 6, 2007

theBishop said:
what's wrong with the cooling?

Both the 360 and PS3 run pretty hot, I think. Their heatsinks do the jobs, but it still feels like a blow-dryer on the highest setting when you put your hand behind either console.

I just brought up cooling because I thought the switch to a 65nm chip would reduce heat, is all.

theBishop · Feb 6, 2007

disappeared said:
Both the 360 and PS3 run pretty hot, I think. Their heatsinks do the jobs, but it still feels like a blow-dryer on the highest setting when you put your hand behind either console.

I just brought up cooling because I thought the switch to a 65nm chip would reduce heat, is all.

I don't notice any excessive heat coming out of my PS3. My Slim PS2 actually feels hotter than my PS3 most of the time.

And it runs incredibly quietly. Sure, cooler is better, but i've yet to hear of a PS3 overheating.

disappeared · Feb 6, 2007

True enough. Anyway, revised hardware should mean cheaper hardware, but I doubt we'll see a price drop until probably Christmas.

lynux3 · Feb 6, 2007

BC is a bad for the consumer and for business. You heard it here first.

Elios83 · Feb 6, 2007

theBishop said:
what's wrong with the cooling?

Right now there's an expensive, low noise, cooling system in the PS3.
If they can reduce heat from the main components they can also use a cheaper cooling system thus lowering their costs furtherly.

theBishop · Feb 6, 2007

Elios83 said:
Right now there's an expensive, low noise, cooling system in the PS3.
If they can reduce heat from the main components they can also use a cheaper cooling system thus lowering their costs furtherly.

oh yeah, i hear that.

Wollan · Feb 6, 2007

theBishop said:
oh yeah, i hear that.

Actually, you don't. *wink

theBishop · Feb 6, 2007

Wollan said:
Actually, you don't. *wink

<3

Elios83 · Feb 6, 2007

PS3 current cooling system:

knitoe · Feb 6, 2007

Personally, I think BC is a waste of time and money invested. If I want to play old games, I'll just use the old systems for 100% capability.

Right now, the PS3 and X360 connects to my 61" Samsung 1080i / 720p TV. Even with recent update, PS2 games on PS3 looks really bad on that size of screen. While, the X360 BC looks so much better. Thus, to me, X360 BC > PS3. Anyway, still prefer old system for old games.

Support NeoGAF

65nm Cell; PlayStation cost controls on the horizon

Has no PEINS

Member

Member

Member

Has no PEINS

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Has no PEINS

Has no PEINS

Member

Member

Member

Member

Gold Member

Has no PEINS

Member

Member

Banstick Emeritus

Member

Has no PEINS

Member

when is my burrito

Member

Member

Member

Member

when is my burrito

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Similar threads