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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Plup is above Leffen though.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
From Hbox? He didn't sound committed enough, but maybe he just didn't want to let people down. I think he's going to end up taking a break at minimum, he's probably not going to anything that's not already on the slate. Is he currently committed to anything but Summit?
Edit: Reddit says he and his girlfriend also broke up, so he's probably also down from that. Super impressive he was able to play like he did while going through that.
Really easy to see how it all adds up though. Feeling down from that, and then having a crowd rooting so hard against you, then you win and it's just dead. And the person you beat was your friend, for whom winning would have been an enormous deal.
FriskyrumX
Banned
Wow really?
If that's the case, big props for him keeping up the grind but damn, that sucks.
That plus like you said the crowd going against him, damn.
I mean, you could see that people were clapping and being congratulatory on stream. There were no boos, no disrespect, or anything like that, but you can't really expect roaring applause when the tournament underdog goes down like that.
Hope Hbox finds what he's looking for somehow. Dude seems to be in a really bad place right now. I imagine quitting his job for Melee and buying a house with his gf has to be hugely mentally strenuous.
As far as I know, they broke up.
All I saw on stream was Hungrybox winning and turning his chair around to total silence. Doesn't feel good.
I don't disagree, I just don't think the blame is rightly placed on the audience in this particular instance. People love the drama of Melee's ongoing meta-narratives and it looked like this was going to finally be the tournament where all active "Gods" were in attendance, but none were in Grand Finals. Then when Hbox beat Leffen in Losers, it would have been the first tournament with all active Gods in attendance won by someone that wasn't one of them or named Leffen. Then he shut that down too. Which isn't a bad thing, it's just not as exciting as what could have been and it's hard to muster up a standing ovation in that particular case imo.
Sucks to hear they broke up though, I hope he's doing okay. :/
^ Totally agree.
I wanted Plup to win for the same reason I wanted Hbox to win GTX and why I was so hype when he did (that clutch last stock win also helped...). The underdog narrative is far more appealing to me than Hbox winning his first Big House (?) and adding another major to his belt. People complaining that he "ruined" the event take it way too far and were likely already haters. The man did his job, and came from losers fighting all these Foxes. No question he is #1 right now.
Buuuuut, the Big House 7 Grand Finals were not fun. Hbox easily outclassed Plup and there was so little tension of who was going to win. He liked sucked the energy out of the crowd after that victory. Obviously not his fault and he shouldn't tried to go easy on him, but it is what it is.
I wanted Plup to win for the same reason I wanted Hbox to win GTX and why I was so hype when he did (that clutch last stock win also helped...). The underdog narrative is far more appealing to me than Hbox winning his first Big House (?) and adding another major to his belt. People complaining that he "ruined" the event take it way too far and were likely already haters. The man did his job, and came from losers fighting all these Foxes. No question he is #1 right now.
Buuuuut, the Big House 7 Grand Finals were not fun. Hbox easily outclassed Plup and there was so little tension of who was going to win. He liked sucked the energy out of the crowd after that victory. Obviously not his fault and he shouldn't tried to go easy on him, but it is what it is.
Honestly I don't know what I expected the audience to do. That was a bad grand finals; it was incredibly one-sided and the fact that Plup won even a single game in the second set surprises me. So from that standpoint I get that the audience wasn't too hype, but to not give the dude any cheer at all for winning a tournament after a legendary loser's bracket run has less to do with hype and more to do with rudeness.
I don't know if you were actually at the tournament so I could be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere that there actually was some cheering, it was just more subdued than normal and not really something you could tell from the stream. At the Genesis 4 venue this was how things were when Armada whooped Mango in a really anticlimactic GFs.
Even though Plup didn't win, I was still super engaged by the overall narrative of the tournament. Basically all of the gods got upset, so seeing if they were going to allow the first major in an eternity slip through their fingers was cool.
But, I knew that if HBox made it past Leffen, Plup was going to be wearing a silver medal. Losers finals was the climax of the tournament, so I wasn't really disappointed by grands since it played out how most of us expected.
Helps that I love watching Puff work, and HBox seems like a really nice, genuine person. Have to wonder if he'd be happier if he were more like FChamp, and fed off negativity.
But, I knew that if HBox made it past Leffen, Plup was going to be wearing a silver medal. Losers finals was the climax of the tournament, so I wasn't really disappointed by grands since it played out how most of us expected.
Helps that I love watching Puff work, and HBox seems like a really nice, genuine person. Have to wonder if he'd be happier if he were more like FChamp, and fed off negativity.
Yep. I've read a lot of people saying that he should embrace the negativity towards him and I think that a really big part of the reason that I actually like him is that he doesn't do that. He's a nice guy that ended up on the wrong side of a very popular, very immature player.
... :O!!!I also wish this was the case, because there's nothing supporting this narrative of marth going even with, let alone beating, puff. Like, PPU beat hungrybox once, that's it?
People can say whatever they want about "theory". Fox also supposedly beats puff hard in theory, but he apparently doesn't in actual practice (with humans playing, over long periods of time, in high stake situations).
Matchups shouldn't be "in theory", but in actual practice in that given year, right? In the year 2017, it's getting harder to arguee fox having more than a slight advantage against puff. Looking at it on paper, there's just no way fox doesn't have an advantage, but it can't be that big in practice.
Back to marth vs puff. Marth may win in theory, whatever, that doesn't translate to practice until proven otherwise. In practice, marth has to beat puff in neutral docens of times, but puff may only need to catch him a couple of times to take a stock.
Look at mew2king's marth vs armada's peach. How many times have you seen mew2king using marth's sword to keep armada out over and over, yet getting caught once before ending armada's stock, and getting comboed super hard, into an edguard, into death?
Marth can at least grab the ledge again, each time peach puts him of stage (not always, but still). But against puff? Getting hit in neutral can turn into a big combo, a free eguard, or both, rather easily. Marth is kinda helpless when put of stage against puff.
For someone to beat hungrybox with marth on multiple ocassions, in a brief period of time (showing that the matchup is actually any good) they would have to play so on point to avoid gettting caught by puff over a long period of time...
If PPMD was feelling good and playing well, and came back, i bet that he would chose falco over marth to fight hungrybox.
It's hard to see marth having a slight advantage over puff, when in practice it looks the other way around.
Mew2king is not going to go marth against hungrybox, and he has said that he's never going to learn pivots, and to stop bothering him about it.
So, unless a current marth player get's dramatically better, the only chance of someone good enough going marth against hungrybox, would be if PPMD came back, managed to be top 5 again, and went with marth over falco for puff. Looks like a lot of "if".
Why does mew2king's marth being able to go toe to toe with armada's peach, indicate anything regarding his marth vs puff? As hard as peach punishes marth, the peach matchup looks way more forgiving?
Puff can combo marth hard (as peach can) + will edguard marth for free the moment he's off stage (unlike peach). Marth can't pressure puff either (like he can peach) when she's recovering, or up air her to death when she's above him (as peach lacks the means for getting back to the ground safely, while puff can always mix things up with him jumps or go to the ledge). Marth can land grabs (which are a major part of his game) on peach, like he can against any other character, but not againt puff, as it whiffs if puff crouches, etc... you get the idea. Marth-Peach looks way better than Marth-Puff in practice.
Mango would have had a big part of the crowd behind him, had he been the one to fight plup in grand finals. Same, although to a lesser degree with mew2king, or even leffen. The crowd wouldn't cheer for armada (as they never do), but people would have still been super excited over the set, unlike the hungrybox one. So any other god reaching grand finals would have had a much better reception.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
For matchups you have to factor in player skill. Peach and Puff aren't above Fox on the tier list despite #1 and #2 in the world maining them, because they are the only players for those characters on that level. The very top (and very bottom) level players skew things, you have to sample the community and player base as a whole. "Hungrybox beats Marth" isn't the same as "Puff beats Marth."
I think saying you can't look at matchups "on paper," in 2017 is misleading. Yes, Melee has been out for 15 years, but so much of that time the meta was ridiculously underdeveloped, there's tech that's crucial to the current meta that people didn't even really start using until 2014. It's also a game with a ton of freedom and ways to play different characters, new approaches to matchups are going to be discovered all the time.
That being said I don't really necessarily think Marth beats Puff. Pivot tippers and well-spaced aerials are amazing vs. Puff, but Marth can't gimp her like he can almost everyone else and a lot of shit just straight up doesn't work vs. her. Meanwhile Puff's strengths with aerial mobility, bair/rest, etc. help her a lot against Marth, and she can combo him really well. Though I probably don't really have enough knowledge on the game to say whether or not this is actually the case.
That being said I don't really necessarily think Marth beats Puff. Pivot tippers and well-spaced aerials are amazing vs. Puff, but Marth can't gimp her like he can almost everyone else and a lot of shit just straight up doesn't work vs. her. Meanwhile Puff's strengths with aerial mobility, bair/rest, etc. help her a lot against Marth, and she can combo him really well. Though I probably don't really have enough knowledge on the game to say whether or not this is actually the case.
but tier lists are made for the highest known (practical) level of play with each character, right?
Like, to a intermediate player, it wouldn't really matter that peach loses to fox at the highest level of play, when at a lower level peach may actually win (just a random example).
At the highest level of play, marth beating puff can't be more than a theory, because we don't have anything to support that.
There's only a single puff that plays at a level that resembles the highest level of play, hungrybox, while there are plenty of marth, more by the day.
I understand that hungrybox being a significantly better player than all the marth he can possibly play against, sucks, but it's what we have.
The thing is that, any footache of hungrybox easily beating any top 20 marth (that's the highest we have, right?) is not going to count because "hungrybox is a better player". The only way someone saying that would "count" a marth vs hungrybox set, is if hungrybox played an oponent of equal skill. For that to happen, something miraculous like PPMD coming back and being top 5 again would have to happen.
So, marth beating puff can only remain "in theory", if something like what i mentioned above is neccesary.
It looks way more forgiving because M2K and PPMD developed the match up at that level. There was a time where M2K just went Fox and Sheik against Armada because he just didn't think Marth could do it. He got murdered with those characters too. M2K having competitive sets with Armada is a very recent thing, and it's not a coincidence that he labbed the match up at the Summit he 3-0'd Armada.
Maybe Puff Marth is 10-0, but there's no one on HBox's skill level that's developing that match up so we can't really know. The next tier down is Prince Abu, and we know he doesn't beat Marths for free.
theprodigy
Member
no it's the highest theoretical level of play (obviously with human limitations)
just like how Fox was still considered #1 even though from like 2008-early 2013 or something he didn't win anything
Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
I have seen armada's peach "murdering" mew2king's fox plenty of times, the best example that comes to mind being MLG Anaheim 2014, when they played in winners. I remember the game on yoshi story being the most brutal thing ever, and the set being super fast. Like, mew2king just went directly into losers. It was hearbreaking, because the moment he picked fox, even before the match started, i was already praying for him to pick sheik instead, as i knew what was about to happen.
If i remember correctly, in that same tournament. After beating PPMD's marth with sheik in losers (and trying captain falcon on final destination), he went on to play armada's peach, and it was very close from what i can remember.
(see any difference between he's performance against armada with sheik vs fox?)
In fact, most of mew2king's sheik vs armada's peach sets were respectably close, if not more in some ocassions. They were a lot slower than plup's sheik vs armada's peach, but mew2king would continuosly take games, and often be close to taking crucial games, like game 3, but end up losing it, etc...
Has he been doing dramatically better with marth? as he now sometimes wins (!!!) and, when he doens't, he pretty much always takes armada to the last game (something that was much more difficult for him with sheik)? sure
However, both of these statement "mew2king used to get murdered with sheik too" and that " M2K having competitive sets with Armada is a very recent thing" are bullsh*t
i touched on this in my previous post
it's practical in the sense that it takes into account the best a player can do, with the character, in specific year, no?
there's a difference between saying that fox beats puff, when player's have put all the "theory" into practice, making all of fox's advantages obvious, and many times making the matchup look like a loosing matchup for puff vs saying that marth beats puff based on theory alone?
2014-2015 M2K was 3-11 in games vs Armada with Sheik, and 4-9 with Fox. The set he did win was with Fox. Even the rest of 2016 was heavily one sided in Armada's favor game wise. He got experience and put in work though.
Compare to 2017, where M2K is still 0-3 vs Armada, but 5-8 in games, taking him to last game every time. M2K was so lost at one point that he was pulling out Puff just for a counterpick. Sorta like he picks Peach for ICs even though Shroomed eats ICs with Marth. Sometimes he just doesn't want to put the work in and relies on hard counterpicks. When he's determined his progress is evident.
You're directly comparing mew2king mixing sheik with other characters, on the same set, in multiple ocassions (which obviously isn't the way to go to do well at a matchup with a specific character) vs mew2king commiting to just marth for years!?
that isn't a fair comparison
Like you said yourself, mew2king has always had a problem with f*cking himself over with counterpicks. Everyone here knows that, there's no need to say it.
In my comment, to which you replied, i was clearly talking about sheik vs peach sets (which is the valuable way of looking at how he did anyway).
quoting myself:
So let's look at the sets where mew2king actually commited to the sheik, shall we?
The only one where he commited to sheik fully was at Super smash sundays 22, i remember it well, just like i remembered the MLG one. I really liked seing mew2king comiting to sheik vs armada's peach, because, back then, i though that was the way to go.
(looking at the stats for that set)
Mew2king, with sheik:
- won game one by 1 stock (mew2king at 17%)
- lost game two by 2 stocks
- lost game three by one stock (armada at 52%)
- lost game four by one stock (armada at 86% and mew2king SDs with an air dodge)
so armada didn't "murder" mew2king's sheik, and the set was actually competitive.
just because mew2king ended up only taking one game, yet being very close in two of the other three, we're going to completely disregard that and reduce it to "armada murdered him"?
if we did that, we would have to say that armada has "murdered" mew2king in at least half the sets they have played in marth vs peach, as armada has beaten mew2king 3-1 or worse plenty of times. That was before mew2king was able to start taking armada to the last game every single time.
Let's look at the next set where mew2king commited to sheik, back in 2014.
MLG Aneheim loser's finals is the next one where mew2king was the closest to comiting fully to sheik and, unsurprisingly, he lost his best chance ever at beating armada's peach with sheik for not doing so.
(looking at the stats for that set)
Mew2king lost game one with fox by 3 stocks (losing by 2 stocks or more happened much more easily to his fox), then he actually commited to sheik for the rest of the set.
Mew2king, with sheik:
- won game two by 2 stocks
- lost game 3 by 2 stocks
- won game 4 by one stock (mew2king at 72%)
- lost game five by one stock (armada at 30%)
again, armada didn't "murder" mew2king's sheik, and the set was as competitive as it could have possibly been.
Like, reread your original comment, then my reply, and tell which one describes more acurrately their sheik vs peach sets (spoiler: mine).
Like i said before, mew2king took games, and made it to the last stock in most of the ones he didn't take.
So, please, looking at their sheik vs peach sets more carefuly, rather than simply going over the numbers like you did, shows that mew2king could have beated armada with sheik, had he sticked to sheik, in more than a couple of sets.
Shortly after, he started trying with marth and he never tried going full sheik again.
I also acknowledged mew2king's improvement with marth in my previous post (him taking some sets, and now consistently taking armada to the last game).
Another crucial point, that of course you didn't mention, is that, by now, we have had eleven 3 out of 5 sets were mew2king commited to marth against armada's peach (using marth in all, or all but one game), compared to only two for sheik before he made the switch.
Aside from smash Summit 2 which was an outliner (mew2king winning 3 f*cking 0), why couldn't mew2king have had similar results, to the ones he has had with marth, had he sticked with sheik?
Seeing how good mew2king did, the 2 times he did commit to sheik:
- 3-1 for armada, with two games going to last stock
- 3-2 for armada, with the last game going to last stock
it would be reasonable to say that he would have eventually beaten armada with sheik, and he would definitely have had plenty of sets, with similar results to the ones he has had with marth (plenty of 3-1 for armada, some 3-2 for armada, some 3-0 for armada).
Again, not fair to compare mew2king's results with marth, after him commiting to using marth in nine 3 out of five sets in a row before 2017 (not counting 2 out of 3) vs him using sheik in just 2
Why is it fair to assume that mew2king wouldn't have improved in the matchup over time with sheik, as he has done with marth?
And, by the way, in the two 2 sets where he did commit to sheik, he ended up losing 5-3 in sheik vs peach.
Anyway, marth does better against peach than sheik, right? and marth is mew2king's best character, so the chance was worth it,
edited many times until i was tired.
LucidMomentum
Member
BUT THE DATA
THIS IS E-SPORTS
On a side note, I'm in Houston, TX for a week for work.
I've been to two Melee and one PM tourney so far. Went 2-2 and 3-2 in them. Not bad considering all my Johns of being busy, jetlag, etc.
It's fun getting to see the scene and how it's doing in different states, though. Majors are fun but it's the weeklies and biweeklies that keep a scene alive.
This was sort of my point before we derailed. If we're having a multiple post argument about whether or not "murder" was hyperbolic, then I concede.
edited my comment to rewrite those short phrases, i barely had to change anything. The rest of the comment it's still intact. I would say that it didn't came as agressive or anything.
I appreciate the suggestion, thought. It's better that way. I was annoyed at Codeblue insisting in mew2king not being competitive with skeik against armada's peach, even though that was not the case.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Summit voting is pretty lame this time around.
I hope amsa makes it. Crush could be good. IDGAF apart from that.
I hope amsa makes it. Crush could be good. IDGAF apart from that.
FriskyrumX
Banned
https://teespring.com/S2J4SUMMITSFW?pr=SUMMIT5#pid=369&cid=6514&sid=front
Went ahead and grabbed this. So good.
Gotta support my boy s2j in summit.
Went ahead and grabbed this. So good.
Gotta support my boy s2j in summit.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
FriskyrumX
Banned
Lmao yeah, I was there for the whole thing watching.
Also, idk if you noticed but one of those is a clip of mine haha.
Merchandise
Member
Summit voting has always been disgusting
lvl99 Pixel
Member
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Summit voting has gotten so ridiculous. It's a stretch to even call it a popularity contest when someone like Mike Haze gets in over amsa.
theprodigy
Member
In true American fashion, it's not about getting the most voters, it's about getting the votes from the right places!
lvl99 Pixel
Member
people doing that shit where they pull the money out (and thus the votes) :|
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I saw mention that Smash has the voting system to make up for lack of viewers and developer/publisher support. Apparently despite all the money going into it they don't actually run much of a profit on it, and they may have even run the first few Summits at a loss.
LucidMomentum
Member
Summit, on the surface, is a great idea.
Melee has always been grassroots at its core, so why not take that to the extreme and have everyone in a group house having fun, playing a serious invite / merit based tourney bracket, and then have some rewards / skits for those who sponsor players to come out, also funding for the event?
But the more you look at it, the more it seems to cause a lot of negative responses. Fundraising snipes, votes getting drowned out by big money, people basically exploiting themselves for viewers / votes, the questionable profitability of it all, etc.
Someone on twitter summed it up pretty well when they said that Smash The Record had 200 people raise 30 K for charity on top of a public event, whereas the Summit has raised 200 K for a dozen or so people to play in a private event.
I know it's not exactly equivalent, but you can tell where a lot of Smash players place their priority and it's on seeing their favorite players at events.
How is this possible? I'm willing to play the ignorance card, here.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
This is a decent write up on it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/76syj8/about_beyond_the_summit_profits/
But basically, round trip flights, housing, and food for all the invited individuals could average as much as $2k+ per person. Adds up fast.
LucidMomentum
Member
Speaking of events running at a loss:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/772lwy/shine_2017_ran_at_a_20k_loss/
Shine 2017 ran at a $20,000 LOSS, despite being sponsored in part by GEICO.
I think it's crucial that people see just how much TO's are putting out to make these sorts of events happen.
It's really a glorified, expensive hobby at this point to TO.
Very few make money out of it.
I've seen dozens of sets where it happens.
With that being said, I hope we don't freeze PS and Dreamland.
I like a little random in my matches.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/772lwy/shine_2017_ran_at_a_20k_loss/
Shine 2017 ran at a $20,000 LOSS, despite being sponsored in part by GEICO.
I think it's crucial that people see just how much TO's are putting out to make these sorts of events happen.
It's really a glorified, expensive hobby at this point to TO.
Very few make money out of it.
I've seen dozens of sets where it happens.
With that being said, I hope we don't freeze PS and Dreamland.
I like a little random in my matches.