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Surge |OT| Electrifying Match 3 on Vita
- Thread starter Toma
- Start date
Same here. I'm one above you, but have struggled since breaking the 3m barrier.At least I managed to break 3 Million. Still nowhere near some of you crazy lot.
Love this game though
I try so hard to keep track of the starred blocks when I hit those single colour blocks. I usually fail.
Use the frenzy blocks along with a star block which you HAVE to clear -- like one blocking its own coloured vent. Then you'll be able to see the stars even during frenzy mode.
HiddenAway
Member
I challenge anyone to be calm at the higher levels
Good luck!
Only Vita game where my hands start sweating.
Same here. I'm one above you, but have struggled since breaking the 3m barrier.
Love this game though
Totally off topic, but make more Motorstorm RC DLC events! I <3 that damn game!
I challenge anyone to be calm at the higher levels
Good luck!
I managed to get to 4.7m ish and then I fell on my arse. I shall be trying again.
So many of my rounds end up with like 4 star blocks though. I think I got more than 100k on my end of round score maybe 6 times in all those levels.
I'm also still not 100% on whether I should clear all block in the way of the star colour vent to open it fully or not. I've sometimes had multipliers and star blocks on the same row as the poxy vent and that's mildly annoying to say the least!
My phone also got Andriod 4.1 today so I should be able to have PSM on it now since it's a certified device.
HiddenAway
Member
Looks like there's a new rival to joseqq and me now. AuruKami...
If it's you, keep at it
If it's you, keep at it
Honey Bunny
Member
Finally broke 3 mil and got to 3.5, pretty happy sitting at 22nd place.
If there's one thing I think could be improved it's that the games go on so long, they're not really ideal for dipping in and out. You can pause sure but, when I'm going for a proper high score my fingers really need to be 'warmed up' so I can't just get straight into it again in the higher levels (exactly like going for a perfect run in Velocity, actually).
If there's one thing I think could be improved it's that the games go on so long, they're not really ideal for dipping in and out. You can pause sure but, when I'm going for a proper high score my fingers really need to be 'warmed up' so I can't just get straight into it again in the higher levels (exactly like going for a perfect run in Velocity, actually).
HiddenAway
Member
For some reason, this didn't update the leaderboards :-( - but at least I have SOME proof!
10 million!
10 million!
how do we know you didn't photoshop these? ;P
HiddenAway
Member
Yeah, one reason why I'd argue this game needs more and more refined modes. Marathon is fine as is, but also more shorter/skill based modes.
HiddenAway
Member
I'm taking a break because the last (failed) attempt felt like rubbing my finger against sandpaper
. I have no idea if it's my fingers or the Vita screen!I usually get too greedy and think too much in the later levels without remembering that survival is the top priority...
The longer I think about it, the more I get the impression that there is an innate design flaw about the scoring mechanics of Surge in its current version.
The idea of making levels easier if you arent that good a player, is good for beginners and very rewarding, but that also pushes the achieveable scores too close together in my opinion.
One of my first tries was 4M, and even after playing for hours I barely improved on that (6M, but still..). It feels like the barrier at the top is closing in too fast after the beginning was a bit too slow.
Thoughts?
HiddenAway
Member
So you think that maybe bonus points should be scored based on what level you're at? Or maybe an end of game bonus?
I think there are 2(3) problems:
1. players that move throw the levels slower still get loads of points by getting bonusses for levels that the better players simply skip. That scoring system puts all players very closely together which makes for a very unsatisfying score distribution. Just an example: First time playing Lumines I maybe got about 0,001% of the score I can reach today. There is loads of space for personal improvement and the game SHOWS that
2. The game gets to brick-walley at the higher end of the spectrum. Once you are able to break into 7-10M your score will likely stay there and not improve, or not by much, anymore.
(3. It takes too long to get into high-level play, once you played the tutorials, they should give you an option to start the game properly without the tutorial levels right from the start.) - This might be remedied by more modes though. Have an endless mode, have puzzle modes etcetc to give players more challenge. Otherwise the game gets dropped too fast since the satisfacting gets lower the higher you get in the ranking (since every game gets longer).
Both of which are rather unsatisfying compared to a scoring system like in Lumines for example.
Lets say a lower level player stops at lvl 30, and a pro at level 60, where the pro manages to get higher scores. This is just super simplified and not correct. Just to emphasize the issue.
Code:
Beginner:
Lvl1 - 30k ingame + 40k bonus
Lvl2 - 30k ingame + 40k bonus
Lvl3 - 30k ingame + 40k bonus
...
2,100,000 at the end of the game.
Pro:
Lvl1 - 50k ingame + 100k bonus
Lvl3 - 50k ingame + 100k bonus
Lvl5 - 50k ingame + 100k bonus
...
4,500,000 at the end of the game.This gives the player the same chances to get bonus counts within a playthrough (30 for Beginner and every second of the 60 levels for the pro). The problem is, that once you got rather good at it, the game stops feeling very rewarding (through the long foreplay it takes to get to highend levels) and the miniscule score improvements.
Lets go through the options:
a) You get higher bonus points for higher levels
In the above mentioned example, that would certainly improve the score range and actually reward players in the higher levels. Lets say each level improves the score bonus by 5%, that would mean that the beginner has 30 5% improvements, while the Pro player actually gets a 30 10% improvements in the 30 levels he plays (by skipping every second level).
So that seems like an actual solution to that problem. Another idea (or even on top of your idea) could be to find ways for players to keep multipliers between levels. Something that most beginners wont be able to do, like giving a 5% score bonus for every 10-blocks-clearance pr for a special block that can be lined up with at least 1 different coloured block, but if you connect it to ALL colours, you get the bonus. Do that 5 times and the scores of your next level will be 25% improved. (Should be locked at 25%, or whatever percentage, highest though, and lost if you dont manage to do it once)
Obviously needs to balanced so that its not overpowered and players JUST go for that.
b) end of game bonus
That is a bit easier than the example above and I think I like it a bit less. The above options actually could add some strategy as well (try going for the extra block that needs to be connected to all other colours, or get a huge combo, maybe destroying your multiplier). Would have the same endresult I think, but it would be less engaging during the game, also has the problem of not showing the proper score of the player until the end of the game.
I think your first suggestion was on spot, they just need to find more ways to reward better players, and more incentives to actually play on higher levels.
The other problem atm is still that brickwall. I forgot which levels they are, but once you enter a certain level grade, it gets ridiculously hard and is almost more about block placement luck than skill. Not quite sure how to handle that though.. except maybe having the game longer on a certain difficulties,like not raising the level every 100k, but raising them for 50K more each level.
Currently:
Lvl1 - 2 100k
2-3 100K
2-3 100K
Maybe:
Lvl1 - 2 100k
2-3 150K
3-4 200K
Would probably offset the balance of your first suggestion. Could probably be balanced/tested though. If you have any other suggestion to be discussed, let me know.
Hello!
This is great stuff. In all honesty, we didn't have the man power to play test this game as much as you folks have, and you've definitely found some flaws that we agree need to be fixed somehow.
When things have quietened down here a bit we'll get onto this, alongside looking at colour blind issues.
Thanks,
James
This is great stuff. In all honesty, we didn't have the man power to play test this game as much as you folks have, and you've definitely found some flaws that we agree need to be fixed somehow.
When things have quietened down here a bit we'll get onto this, alongside looking at colour blind issues.
Thanks,
James
Awesome
Good luck with your other projects going on atm! I imagine you'll have some busy days ahead of you.HiddenAway
Member
First of all, I linked to your post on Twitter and pushed it to the FuturLab people. They need to know that you've got suggestions and that just makes the games better assuming they can/want to implement it.
Oh, and I should point out that despite liking puzzle games, Lumines is one of those that I can't get through the enjoyment barrier. Every time I see someone tell me it's great, I try it and I still don't get it. Just personal preference so bear with me for not understanding Lumines references So, skipping point 1 because of my own lack of knowledge of Lumines...
Point 2: Yes, very much the ultimate brick wall starts at 7 million. At that point, it's a survival game.
Point 3: I agree with that too - that said, I actually scored 2m a few days ago because I took THAT LONG to open a vent.
I like the idea of multipliers but how to hold onto them and how to cancel them is a tricky one to think about. The game hints at what colour the star blocks will be in the next round so, why not set a combo target? If you clear x blocks in one go, you get either an extra bonus (plus points per block you go over the target) or add to your bonus percentage level by 5% for every 3 times you do it (up to 25% - then bonus points afterwards - 10,000?). If you fail to match that number of blocks, you drop 5% immediately.
The brick wall fix sounds good but you'd have to stop increasing it somewhere, otherwise the game will go on forever, and as much as I like playing Surge, I do want to play other games too.
Last word (didn't fit anywhere else)
Luck does play a part, but most of the time in the higher levels, I do manage to open at least one vent before it gets to critical levels and I work on the opposite one as quick as possible to start the drain. It is still luck based but there is some skill involved (and focus - you're at level 80 so stop looking for combos!)
(oh, and thanks for the PM. I did see the post but it was on the Vita and typing long prose on the GAF mobile site is not easy)
Edit: See, it took me that long to look at your suggestions that they got to you before I did!
Oh, and I should point out that despite liking puzzle games, Lumines is one of those that I can't get through the enjoyment barrier. Every time I see someone tell me it's great, I try it and I still don't get it. Just personal preference so bear with me for not understanding Lumines references
So, skipping point 1 because of my own lack of knowledge of Lumines...Point 2: Yes, very much the ultimate brick wall starts at 7 million. At that point, it's a survival game.
Point 3: I agree with that too - that said, I actually scored 2m a few days ago because I took THAT LONG to open a vent.
I like the idea of multipliers but how to hold onto them and how to cancel them is a tricky one to think about. The game hints at what colour the star blocks will be in the next round so, why not set a combo target? If you clear x blocks in one go, you get either an extra bonus (plus points per block you go over the target) or add to your bonus percentage level by 5% for every 3 times you do it (up to 25% - then bonus points afterwards - 10,000?). If you fail to match that number of blocks, you drop 5% immediately.
The brick wall fix sounds good but you'd have to stop increasing it somewhere, otherwise the game will go on forever, and as much as I like playing Surge, I do want to play other games too
.Last word (didn't fit anywhere else)
Luck does play a part, but most of the time in the higher levels, I do manage to open at least one vent before it gets to critical levels and I work on the opposite one as quick as possible to start the drain. It is still luck based but there is some skill involved (and focus - you're at level 80 so stop looking for combos!)
(oh, and thanks for the PM. I did see the post but it was on the Vita and typing long prose on the GAF mobile site is not easy
)Edit: See, it took me that long to look at your suggestions that they got to you before I did!
Just a small point before my comment: I know fully well that this game has quite a bit of strategy and tactics already and isnt just luck. Lets just assume that we are on the same page of the discussion here and dont need to say that over and over
The combo target is another great idea. In the end its really just about implementing some more ideas that a) wont hinder the beginner player/the beginner doesnt need to take care off if he doesnt want to and b) offers more options for highlevel play for better players. Its probably going to take a lot of tinkering and playtesting, but if you have any ideas for that just throw them into this thread
The problem with the brickwall fix is, as you rightly mentioned, that games might never end. That one is indeed a bit tricky and I am not quite sure how to solve that yet. One option would be to shorten the beginning of the game a bit (Maybe allow a "Pro mode" that starts at level 25 or something? Combined with the idea of giving more points on higher levels (my big post), that would mean that you wouldnt miss out on too much and all are on the same level then anyway if that gets its own Highscore ranking) and then slow down the level ups. Once you reach a certain point every setup can be deadly and continuosly raising the level after basically every level is just pushing everyone to similar brickwalls.
Another thing I just noticed, if higher levels give exponentially higher rewards (5% more of the level before), having higher level requirements might not be that bad (since you get more points anyway. So maybe raising the requirements about 10-20k for each level or something, but thats balancing stuff.
Edit:
I am STILL not convinced about that solution for the brickwall thing though.But you are definitely right, if you want to open up the last levels for more "high-level" play, the foreplay is way too long. So one option would be another mode that skips the first levels (getting rid of the tutorial levels and some others to start with a higher speed).
Dont know whether thats doable in terms of server space, but how about making more ranking tables for starting modes?
Example:
Starting from 0 gets its own highscore table,
starting from 10 gets its own highscore table,
...
etcetc
If that is too fragmented they could still do something like 0-25-50 at least? How do you like that idea? You could straight skip the first hour while still playing competetively.
The combo target is another great idea. In the end its really just about implementing some more ideas that a) wont hinder the beginner player/the beginner doesnt need to take care off if he doesnt want to and b) offers more options for highlevel play for better players. Its probably going to take a lot of tinkering and playtesting, but if you have any ideas for that just throw them into this thread
The problem with the brickwall fix is, as you rightly mentioned, that games might never end. That one is indeed a bit tricky and I am not quite sure how to solve that yet. One option would be to shorten the beginning of the game a bit (Maybe allow a "Pro mode" that starts at level 25 or something? Combined with the idea of giving more points on higher levels (my big post), that would mean that you wouldnt miss out on too much and all are on the same level then anyway if that gets its own Highscore ranking) and then slow down the level ups. Once you reach a certain point every setup can be deadly and continuosly raising the level after basically every level is just pushing everyone to similar brickwalls.
Another thing I just noticed, if higher levels give exponentially higher rewards (5% more of the level before), having higher level requirements might not be that bad (since you get more points anyway. So maybe raising the requirements about 10-20k for each level or something, but thats balancing stuff.
Edit:
I am STILL not convinced about that solution for the brickwall thing though.But you are definitely right, if you want to open up the last levels for more "high-level" play, the foreplay is way too long. So one option would be another mode that skips the first levels (getting rid of the tutorial levels and some others to start with a higher speed).
Dont know whether thats doable in terms of server space, but how about making more ranking tables for starting modes?
Example:
Starting from 0 gets its own highscore table,
starting from 10 gets its own highscore table,
...
etcetc
If that is too fragmented they could still do something like 0-25-50 at least? How do you like that idea? You could straight skip the first hour while still playing competetively.
HiddenAway
Member
Can I get one thing straight... Do you really take an hour to get to the 6m mark? I might not keep track of the time very well but I'm sure my sessions are less than that...
Regarding the so-called brick wall, the only way I can see the problem stopping is if you cap the level at the exact point where the game can beat you if you hesitate for a second but you still have enough time to get through to the vents, so the skilled players can continue scoring. It's a very arbitrary point and I don't envy anyone who has to code it in. Get it right, and the best players will stay at the top and with a score that can relate to how long they stayed at the top speed. Get it too low, and it becomes yet another brick wall and the only way a player stops is to let the game beat them - which defeats the object of the high score. Too high, and you're back to square 1.
Based on how I play, it'd be around the 60-70 mark but there isn't much margin for error!
I might not keep track of the time very well but I'm sure my sessions are less than that...Regarding the so-called brick wall, the only way I can see the problem stopping is if you cap the level at the exact point where the game can beat you if you hesitate for a second but you still have enough time to get through to the vents, so the skilled players can continue scoring. It's a very arbitrary point and I don't envy anyone who has to code it in. Get it right, and the best players will stay at the top and with a score that can relate to how long they stayed at the top speed. Get it too low, and it becomes yet another brick wall and the only way a player stops is to let the game beat them - which defeats the object of the high score. Too high, and you're back to square 1.
Based on how I play, it'd be around the 60-70 mark but there isn't much margin for error!
Can I get one thing straight... Do you really take an hour to get to the 6m mark?
Regarding the so-called brick wall, the only way I can see the problem stopping is if you cap the level at the exact point where the game can beat you if you hesitate for a second but you still have enough time to get through to the vents, so the skilled players can continue scoring. It's a very arbitrary point and I don't envy anyone who has to code it in. Get it right, and the best players will stay at the top and with a score that can relate to how long they stayed at the top speed. Get it too low, and it becomes yet another brick wall and the only way a player stops is to let the game beat them - which defeats the object of the high score. Too high, and you're back to square 1.
Based on how I play, it'd be around the 60-70 mark but there isn't much margin for error!
Yeah, I think that concept is a bit arbitrary and depends too much on the person. Hmmm, maybe I'll think of something later. And yes, my 6-7M score took me 2-3 hours I think. Maybe they need to do some more testing how long it actually takes atm to reach 1M, 2M, 3M... etc.
HiddenAway
Member
O_O
Surge certainly isn't pick up and play but 2-3 hours is a bit much
Do you go for just clearing the board randomly or do you work around all the stars and clear them last (with vents open)?
O_O
Surge certainly isn't pick up and play but 2-3 hours is a bit much
Do you go for just clearing the board randomly or do you work around all the stars and clear them last (with vents open)?
Lets just say you are the better Surge player, which I wont argue about. The problem then is that even slightly worse players can get up there but it takes them 3 hours to do so. I just crawl along the levels because my bonusses arent as high as yours are I guess.
Which again, opens the discussion on the brickwall, we hit the brickwall at similar levels/value scores, but one of us takes 3 hours to do so, the other one 1 hour. That isnt all that fun and less skill shouldnt make you reach the same spot 3 hours later, but should stop you at 1/3rd of what the other player achieved.
Currently:
You: 7M 1 hour
Me: 7M 3 hours
What it should be:
You 7M 1 hour
Me 2,5M 1 hour
Which actually puts the brickwall discussion to a new point, since it could mean that the progression system is a bit flawed. Atm a major part is just "put more time into it to get a higher score" if you go slower. Unfortunately I havent designed games as these yet, so I dont know what the best course of action for that could be.
And I usually try to leave stars for last, then open their according vent, but my highest was something like 400K bonus, and not your 2M.
HiddenAway
Member
A high bonus over 121k (11 star blocks, both vents open) is exceptionally rare for me. Usually, the setup of the blocks kills any chance unless I strategically uncover vents, a 24 block combo and a change block in one round. I do tend to get 49/64k (7/8 star) bonuses most frequently, and a few 100k.
I did think of something else but I don't think the idea would work - it'd only serve to make games longer and it also potentially adds complexity to the game. One of the great things about Surge is that it's relatively easy to play and you know what the cut-off is (even though I didn't understand for a few goes).
The idea was for some kind of life bar and it drains if you leave the vents blocked for too long on both sides. Once the life bar drains, it's game over but it could be replenished a little by clearing the board in a certain way (the idea never got fleshed out). That'd be difficult to recommend either way unless we can refine it.
So right now, the problem is that slower players can reach the same scores as the better players by just spending more time at the lower levels. That said, you can't penalise anyone for playing the game their way. When I started out, I was like that
.It's going to require a lot more thought now. Don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight
This gives me some in hope in that this mirrors pretty much what I do/find, but also takes it away because that means I clearly suck at the game when I can't keep it going for as long as you. :'(
Yeah, that would make things too complicated/intricate right from the get go. As you mentioned, one of the things the game does great atm is that it lets everyone just pick it up and play it, no matter the skill level. That would definitely be tricky and I dont think users starting out WANT to deal with two draining bars at the same time.
Back to the drawing board with you!
With my first post as a new NeoGAF member, I wanted to thank you guys in this thread for hyping this game when I was a lurker. It got me interested enough to pick it up and I have been loving the surprisingly deep play mechanics. Surge is in my top 3 Vita games.
And props to me for putting in enough practice to eventually crack the top ten list (I've been bumped out since), which happened to come in a game where my little girl came over to see what I was playing. For some reason it turned out to be my best game as I cracked the 5 million mark for the first time. She was impressed and is now hooked on the game herself.
So once again, thanks for recommending this gem, and thanks to the developer for creating it! I recently beat their awesome space shooter (Velocity) and even filled out the survey on how to improve its sequel. If you are reading this thread, you guys make great games!
And props to me for putting in enough practice to eventually crack the top ten list (I've been bumped out since), which happened to come in a game where my little girl came over to see what I was playing. For some reason it turned out to be my best game as I cracked the 5 million mark for the first time. She was impressed and is now hooked on the game herself.
So once again, thanks for recommending this gem, and thanks to the developer for creating it! I recently beat their awesome space shooter (Velocity) and even filled out the survey on how to improve its sequel. If you are reading this thread, you guys make great games!
Glad we managed to get some others to pick it up
It really is a tremendous game concept. Unfortunately, it has some issues that hopefully get worked on after they finished their Velocity project. It really doesnt deserve to be hidden on the mobile section and overlooked as it is right now.The LBP editor will probably never cease to amaze me. The game definitely deserves some love.
Oh and, haha, that fan powered flight logo was really cute.
Noisepurge
Member
Gaf namedropped!
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013...rge-deluxe-announced-for-ps-vita/#more-151437
Great to finally get a proper release so us weak Scandinavians can get to play it too!
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013...rge-deluxe-announced-for-ps-vita/#more-151437
Great to finally get a proper release so us weak Scandinavians can get to play it too!
Gaf namedropped!
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013...rge-deluxe-announced-for-ps-vita/#more-151437
Great to finally get a proper release so us weak Scandinavians can get to play it too!
Too bad that customizable block skins apparently didnt make the cut, but you cant have everything I guess
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