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Digital Foundry - How Does Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility on Xbox One Actually Work

J

JP

Member
I've said it quite a few times on here and I'm sure I'll keep saying it, the quality of the work done on this by Microsoft is incredible.

I'm not going to post too many details as I'd rather people watched the video but it's something that they've been building on for many years now and they have over 100 people working on backwards compatibility.

Another thing that I keep saying is that I've actually been far more impressed with the way they've enhanced these games on the X than I have been with the X enhancements on normal Xbox One games.

How Does Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility on Xbox One Actually Work?

EDIT:
The Eurogamer article isn't up yet but I'll link to it when it goes live.
 
B

Bickle2

Member
What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
Bickle2 said:
What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”
Click to expand...

I think the difference between you saying it and DF saying it is that DF has the original source that confirms how it actually works and you don't.

Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.
 
ReBurn

ReBurn

Gold Member
pixelbox said:
But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.
Click to expand...

It might complicate licensing around a commercial release of the emulator because Nvidia may want to be paid royalties. And that's probably inhibiting them from spending R&D resources on it. Since we already know that emulation of PS 1, 2 and 3 is possible on x64 it's probably safe to assume that one of the hang ups is licensing and royalties.
 
rokkerkory

rokkerkory

Member
Bickle2 said:
What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”
Click to expand...

Man you sure showed everyone!
 
G

Gitaroo

Member
I thought sony created the ps api to avoid what ms has to deal with nvidia when they were trying to get og xbox bc running on 360. Basically every hardware from ps3 on have to be fully compatible with ps shaders no matter the brand of gpu. So in the future they can go with hardware of any brand and carry some of their work forward. For ps5 they can even go with intel nvidia if they wanted to can have backward compatibility with ps4. Obviously ps3 was an odd one due to cpu.
 
Sosokrates

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
The back compat is a great feature,many 360 games hold up very well. Especially when they are upgraded to 4k.
 
Wonko_C

Wonko_C

Member
So they actually go through the games' code? I have no game dev knowledge but does this basically mean they're porting all BC games to the XBO?
 
Koala Driving a Ferrari

Koala Driving a Ferrari

Member
Fantastic article from DF. The technical solution employed is something that I've been interested in since it was announced.

I'm glad that Richard also asked why the X enhanced titles aren't also enhanced on the standard Xbox One (in a more limited form). It's something that I've been pondering. Hopefully that's not something that gets left on the drawing board.

Either way, the achievements of the engineers at MS really should be applauded by the gaming community. It's such a fantastic feature. It keeps me turning my Xbox One more than any other system in my giant collection of game consoles at the moment.

pixelbox said:
But if Sony attempted, they would have to ask Nvidia which i believe wouldnt go well. MS always had AMD.
Click to expand...

The OG Xbox has an Nvidia GPU FYI (I believe it was an improved version of the GeForce 3).
 
B

Bickle2

Member
ReBurn said:
I think the difference between you saying it and DF saying it is that DF has the original source that confirms how it actually works and you don't.

Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.
Click to expand...

No, the difference is that people won’t be fired and sued. It doesn’t change the fact I was right, nor does it change the fact that the people denying it though you could emulate the 360 on an Xbox when a $5000 PC can’t do it.

Anyone who knows about how computers work can figure this out. The only real secret is their algorithms and specific methods of achieving it, not the methodology or requirements to do so.
 
TGO

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.
 
3

3rdman

Member
Saw this video this morning...motivated me to load up Crimson Skies. Wow...still plays wonderfully and no shimmering. Looks fantastic...I'm really impressed with the X so far.
 
S

solis74

Member
JP said:
I've said it quite a few times on here and I'm sure I'll keep saying it, the quality of the work done on this by Microsoft is incredible.

I'm not going to post too many details as I'd rather people watched the video but it's something that they've been building on for many years now and they have over 100 people working on backwards compatibility.

Another thing that I keep saying is that I've actually been far more impressed with the way they've enhanced these games on the X than I have been with the X enhancements on normal Xbox One games.

How Does Xbox 360 Backwards Compatibility on Xbox One Actually Work?

EDIT:
The Eurogamer article isn't up yet but I'll link to it when it goes live.
Click to expand...

pure MS Awesomeness!
 
P

pixelbox

Member
Koala Driving a Ferrari said:
Fantastic article from DF. The technical solution employed is something that I've been interested in since it was announced.

I'm glad that Richard also asked why the X enhanced titles aren't also enhanced on the standard Xbox One (in a more limited form). It's something that I've been pondering. Hopefully that's not something that gets left on the drawing board.

Either way, the achievements of the engineers at MS really should be applauded by the gaming community. It's such a fantastic feature. It keeps me turning my Xbox One more than any other system in my giant collection of game consoles at the moment.



The OG Xbox has an Nvidia GPU FYI (I believe it was an improved version of the GeForce 3).
Click to expand...
Nvidia is worth more now than then. Maybe it's a money issue.
 
R

RootCause

Member
They've done a fantastic job. But they need to get more games on it. Hoping they have a Christmas Day surprise.

TGO said:
I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.
Click to expand...
I wish. But didn't they have a ps1 released not long ago for one of these events, and it turned out to be nothing?
 
WaterAstro

WaterAstro

Member
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
 
T

TheAdmiester

Member
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

Sony would rather put their virtualisation and operating system development staff into making new games? Sounds kinda misguided to me.
 
Calibos

Calibos

Member
I always enjoy these dives into the BC program...It really is amazing that they have 3 generations of systems created at different times with different architectures all running in one place.

WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ....
 
The_Mike

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
TGO said:
I hope all the attention Xbox is getting with BC will give Sony the big kick up the arse they deserve, hopefully that PS2 theme is part of a announcement for PSX and the 4k Jak & Daxter was a premature reveal that they quickly covered up.
Click to expand...

Well, did it boost the sale for Xbox? Probably not, and that’s enough reason for Sony not to care.

I am a big fan of it myself, but the majority of PS players don’t really care about BC, they want new games. That’s what they usually say when discussing the topic.

Just look at this fellow, the typical PS 4 player:

WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...
 
M

mad597

Banned
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

The 100 people working on the emulator aren't game devs you dumbass.

Sony fans so fucking stupid they rather pay two or three times for the same damn game to save sony the inconvenience of deploying a real BC program. You guys just like to get abused.
 
Nitpicker_Red

Nitpicker_Red

Member
ReBurn said:
Also, in the world of emulation, the emulation middleware is always a traffic cop that translates between the expected environment and the target environment. That's not exactly a groundbreaking revelation or epiphany you had that others haven't. That's just what makes emulation work. The special sauce is figuring out how to do that part efficiently while also taking advantage of the target environment's capabilities and unless you are part of the engineering teams delivering it you really have no clue how they achieve what they do.
Click to expand...

Isn't that the whole idea behind Wine? Which is an acronym for « Wine Is Not an Emulator »?
Edit: The whole "not simulating the OS like a VM would (or in our case, simulating the hardware like an emulator would) - instead, add a compatibility layer to translate when possible" thing. But I'm not sure it's actually the case here because they still say "emulation" in the video. Someone help?
Of course, based on the video they also built the hardware taking in account backwards compatibility, so there's that to take in account too...
 
B

Bickle2

Member
The_Mike said:
Well, did it boost the sale for Xbox? Probably not, and that’s enough reason for Sony not to care.

I am a big fan of it myself, but the majority of PS players don’t really care about BC, they want new games. That’s what they usually say when discussing the topic.

Just look at this fellow, the typical PS 4 player:
Click to expand...

That’s the usual “I do t care until I have it, then it’s the greatest thing EVER” words.

BC has been a huge success, not only moving systems but moving games. The price of 360 games has actually increase by a significant amount. Many big titles have more than doubled the minimum sale prices.

Most of Those 100 people likely aren’t people who’d be making many games anyway, they’re not creatives, they’re engineers working on the OS and the translator, not making games.
 
The_Mike

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Metalingus5150 said:
The Sony Apathy? lol
That's mad.
Must be so apathetic with all the great games they're putting out lol
Click to expand...

If you aren’t into Asian games or filmic single player experiences the amount of interesting Sony exclusives are literally none existent.
 
M

Metalingus5150

Member
The_Mike said:
If you aren’t into Asian games or filmic single player experiences the amount of interesting Sony exclusives are literally none existent.
Click to expand...

Well with Sony winning this generation, I'm sure the amount of people into asian games or filmic single player games is big.
 
The_Mike

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Metalingus5150 said:
Well with Sony winning this generation, I'm sure the amount of people into asian games or filmic single player games is big.
Click to expand...

Or, maybe Sony’s aggressive marketing and players word of mouth works better? We don’t know for sure which effects works best.

PS4 players outnumbers XO players three to one, yet it’s still multi plats that leads the charts.

Sony did already lead this generation before exclusives began to come, and then graphics mattered. Sony won for being all about games while Xbox was also about tv.
 
cireza

cireza

Member
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...
Let's have 100 people porting a PS3 game, instead of having them working on the entire PS3 library.

Genius.
 
Lort

Lort

Banned
This thread is about xboxs awesome ability to play 360 and original xbox games.

Great technology!!
 
F

FutureLarking

Member
Bickle2 said:
What they gloss over since DZf is obcessed with graphics, is thst th x86 code undergoes static binary translation (a fancy way of saying “find and replace”), as emulating the PPC on even a top end gaming PC is a system buster. This is precisely the method Apple used to port their PPC apps over to x86 when they dropped out of the CELL group, when Jobs threw a fit Microsoft had joined up. Since the GPU in the 360 is just an ancestor of the ones they use today, the emulation layer is mostly a traffic cop. It’s emulating an environment, it’s not emulating hardware. As they got more experienced with doing then ports, the translator became more sophisticated and much less code had to be hand tweaked so output got faster and better.

I’ve been telling people,this since it was announced. Too bad it took the dips over at DF to finally get access to “prove it”
Click to expand...

The strange thing is most of these details were actually known since BC started coming out (and I've mentioned it a few times in my post history) - straight from Microsoft no less.
 
Lort

Lort

Banned
Ms said almost all of this previously, as for this “find and replace” and “traffic cop” description., why dont you take your stunningly acurate archtitecure knowledge over to develop the open source 360 emulator for pc. Im sure theyd love to hear about your insights.
 
phil_t98

phil_t98

#SonyToo
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

they ae programers not game developers, they aint writing game code they are writing an emulator that emulates the 360. no idea why you are commending sony in this instance as they should be making the games you already own work on the system you own not having to repay to play them again
 
Journey

Journey

Banned
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather put those 100 people into making new games. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

phil_t98 said:
they ae programers not game developers, they aint writing game code they are writing an emulator that emulates the 360. no idea why you are commending sony in this instance as they should be making the games you already own work on the system you own not having to repay to play them again
Click to expand...



Phil is not a warrior... See the difference?
 
3

3rdman

Member
WaterAstro said:
Yeah, it's obvious they had a ton of people working on it. 100 people? Not surprised.

Sony would rather port those games and charge you for stuff you already own. That's the difference.
Click to expand...

Fixed. :p

Seriously though, it's a nice bonus and (I can only speak for myself) it's what made me finally jump back in after tuning out this gen.
 
A

Adam_802

Member
MS really has something awesome with BC, funny how the Cell Architecture of ps3 is still biting sony in the ass 11 years later
 
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