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To the "Destiny 2 looks like DLC" crowd. Why?

D

DrBo42

Member
Sequels (or at least the good ones) tend to evolve from the first on multiple fronts. That demo offered us more of the same with some reworked class bells and whistles. I think people wanted to see the exact opposite of the typical limited interiors or any confined play spaces after seeing/playing so much of it in the first game.

I don't think Destiny 2 looks bad but their first showing was too similar to the first game to get people super excited initially.
 
W

Won

Member
The short and snappy answer would be that if you use the word "rework" that often than you are looking at an update for a game, not at a sequel.
 
C

cordy

Banned
Kibe said:
What are you guys expecting from E3 ? I honestly don't know what to look for, never played the game before.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure but I do know that they'll probably focus on things that cater to those who don't play Destiny now. The stuff here was too core-focused. Since E3 is around the corner it makes sense to show things that caters others more especially with extra eyes on the product.
 
B

Babyshams

Member
Graphically unimpressive compared to other FPS shooters already released(ie BF1)

30 FPS while being less graphically impressive

No dedicated servers

No new enemies shown

The way they have answered questions about 30 fps and servers makes it seem like this is the same old dodgey Bungie that doesn't give real answers and doesn't own up to their mistakes.
 
K

Killer Queen

Banned
StalkerUKCG said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but this seems like a really silly complaint.

Just off the top of my head

A complete rework of at least 3 sub classes
A complete rework of the weapon loadout
An entirely new story
Improved Graphics
4 entirely new locations
A slew of new strikes
A slew of new MP maps
A reworking of game currency
A reworking of multiplayer across the board
LFG systems and Guilds
Friendly AI characters during gameplay
Improvements to how activities can be launched
Entirely new loot
At least 3 new weapon archetypes
+more I'm very likely missing


Additionally why does it matter if it looks like "DLC" or more specifically an Expansion.

World of Warcraft gets similar priced "expansions" frequently and that's a game that require a monthly sub to play. People don't really complain then.

I'm basically just trying to understand the perspective of people who feel this is more like a DLC than a Sequel and what basis they are using for comparison
Click to expand...
Because none of that is really all that big of a deal and is very much expansion level content. That's the bare minimum to be expected.

and that's building off one central game and adding in features in content.
Adding half of a WoW expansions worth of content and releasing it as an entirely new game when the original game was already incredibly lacking isn't all that exciting.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
Won said:
The short and snappy answer would be that if you use the word "rework" that often than you are looking at an update for a game, not at a sequel.
Click to expand...

I could say the exact same about dark souls 1 to 3. But like in this scenario it would be stupidly reductive.
 
E

ExVicis

Member
Horrible First Post.

My problem is that there isn't anything horribly new or innovate to actually make it different from D1. I mean Halo 2 added Dual Wielding, completely new environments to fight in, completely new enemies to fight and even a whole new perspective on the story and plot of the game.

Destiny 2 just doesn't really have enough to justify why it deserves a 2. If maybe one of the new features was something like I don't know something like "Defend the (whatever the new Social Hub is) from ____" events every so often or a real big focus on new and different locations. Maybe some attempt at a new game mode like ship combat or something. The features added don't feel like "bold" or "new" steps at all because they're things people have beeng wanting since Destiny 1 and a lot of people kind of sadly resigned themselves to expecting to never get it until Destiny 2. The thing is though I expected it ALONG with whatever crazy new things they were going to come up with.

Levels might be new as well but so much of the same colors and hues are used it results in a lot of the newer stuff really just looking like familiar stuff we've already seen, robbing it of a lot of the new feeling and really just, at least for me, makes me think "why bother in this new place when it's more or less like this place on Vex place we've already seen?" So nothing really feels new or bold and really if everything just just a sleeker newer version of the same old then I don't see why it should be anything but DLC?

I'm not mad, I'm not hating on the game, I played a lot of Destiny and every so often I even feel the itch to play it again, but there's just not enough there for me to say this is a innovative great new sequel to be hyped up about. I'm interested all the same and I know I'm going to play it at some point just out of curiosity alone and to scratch that itch but unless there's something there to Wow! me it will definitely not be at release.
 
L

LiK

Member
I think the gameplay of the first level was way too similar to the first game. It's probably a silly thing to complain about but I was hoping to see a bigger area or level that involved combat. Maybe we'll see that in the Beta.
 
I

Interficium

Banned
Kyne said:
titanfall > titanfall 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"
mirrors edge > mirrors edge 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"

destiny > destiny 2 = "not enough changes! you fucked it up!"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Click to expand...

Or, closer to home for Bungie, how about how they "ruined" Halo with Halo 2, 3, and Reach by making too many changes to the Halo formula, according to Gaf?

It's funny, nobody was bitching about "reused" covenant assets or forerunner architecture in those sequels, either.
 
S

sjay1994

Member
LiK said:
I think the gameplay of the first level was way too similar to the first game. It's probably a silly thing to complain about but I was hoping to see a bigger area or level that involved combat. Maybe we'll see that in the Beta.
Click to expand...

The beta is probably going to be what people played at the event, maybe with a few additional story missions/crucible modes.
 
N

NullPointer

Member
Generally speaking, expansions add more content into existing content slots. So Destiny expansions have come with new story missions, new strikes, new raids, new gear, new PvP maps.

Destiny expansions to date have also included some system overhauls, like the April update that made changes to progression and loot. Systems like infusion were added. New modes like Sparrow racing, etc. New subclasses were also introduced in year one as well as tweaked enemies and a new faction made up of tweaked enemies (the Taken).

So all of that type of content has been offered up as paid expansion content, on top of the core Destiny game in year one. All of that can be considered expansion content and sets the expectations for expansion content.

What isn't expansion content? Major new systems or gameplay system overhauls (not tweaks or adjustments), new player classes and entirely new enemy factions (not just tweaks or remixes of existing enemies).

The difference between a systems overhaul and a major system overhaul is going to subjective. But I think its like defining porn - you know it when you see it. Going from 30fps to 60fps would count I think. And that still leaves whole new factions and player classes as the kind of thing you'd look to see in a new Destiny as opposed to a post-launch expansion.

New areas that seem to have a lot of reused assets and designs also feel more like expansion content than something you'd find in a new numbered release.
 
I

InsaneTiger

Member
I know what I want from Destiny, I know what to expect from Destiny. I think it looks great and expands and improves upon what was built. This is he beginning of a new foundation for the world of Destiny. I look forward to diving in with my fellow Guardians.
 
S

Souless Squirrel

Member
Those all look like Qol changes and extra content i'd expect out of an expansion

Pizza said:
And unless i read lies about the first game's dev cycle, this game is built off of content cut out of the first which isn't a great look imo

Scream at me if I'm wrong there please
Click to expand...

Well if we go by concept art and some of the early talk about were we might go in destiny 1 the 3 new locations are definitely ones covered in that area. Those areas being content that was meant to make it into the first game but just used for the second isn't something anyone would really know I think.
 
B

Bold One

Member
A lot and I mean A LOT of people still have Desitny from 2014 in their heads and refuse to acknowledge that the game has changed by metric fucktons.

Which makes the DLC jibes more baffling actually.
 
K

KageMaru

Member
When looking at footage for the strike, it's really not hard to see how it could be mistaken for a Destiny 1 expansion from a graphical perspective. I've even had two conversations with two separate friends at work who think it looks like the first game based on the strike footage and they weren't trolling.
 
Hoho for breakfast

Hoho for breakfast

Member
The game looks just like the original Destiny. As in literally being hard to distinguish from the last game that released 3 years prior.

- Graphically looks the same
- The layout of everything looks the same right down to the ships flying around in orbit loading screens
- Cabal and Vex enemies. Same as the first game
- Theres new strikes and a single raid and exotic weapons and...all of this shit happened in Destiny 1 as well. It's a given this would be in Destiny 2.
- They managed to drop the max pvp player count from 6 to 4
- Theres all new....subclasses? For a sequel this is a big selling point? Guess what, we already got that in Destiny 1 DLC as well.

The introduction of the Taken (in the TK DLC) was newer/fresher than any enemies we saw in Destiny 2s reveal.

I love the game but I don't see why it's hard to understand that everything literally looks the same, which is not exciting to people.
 
G

Goldfishking

Member
StalkerUKCG said:
A complete rework of at least 3 sub classes
A complete rework of the weapon loadout
An entirely new story
Improved Graphics
4 entirely new locations
A slew of new strikes
A slew of new MP maps
A reworking of game currency
A reworking of multiplayer across the board
LFG systems and Guilds
Friendly AI characters during gameplay
Improvements to how activities can be launched
Entirely new loot
At least 3 new weapon archetypes
+more I'm very likely missing
Click to expand...

That's a nice list. But the problem is not one of those points gets me excited. Especially not to buy a £50 game that I will need to buy expansions for. Even then I won't have everything as I wont be getting it on PS4.

There are tons of great games coming out all the time, especially FPS game. I don't really need another Destiny.
 
X

Xeroblade

Member
Kyne said:
titanfall > titanfall 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"
mirrors edge > mirrors edge 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"

destiny > destiny 2 = "not enough changes! you fucked it up!"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Click to expand...

I don't think any of us are saying they fucked it up? I welcome all the changes they have announced, but its only Quality of Life improvements. We have been asking for these changes for awhile now. During that reveal they spoke as if they were giving us an uprgrade, new missions, a new raid, a new strike, new weapons, etc. The game itself looks great and I am looking forward to dropping 500+ hours all over agian. They couldn't come up with a ton of different class options? Ships are just loading screens still?
 
B

BraXzy

Member
Things that could have been added (without changing the core experience) to make D2 give me sequel vibes:

A fourth entirely new class.

New enemy types.. maybe they've come from out of our system after finding word of the traveler?

An entirely new game mode. We've had strikes, raids and nightfalls... They're great and I look forward to new ones but it's still just iterating on the same ideas.

Space flight / combat. Something much requested and would be awesome to have.

Meaningful boss mechanics. Not just another health bar to shoot.
 
S

SirMossyBloke

Member
Goldfishking said:
That's a nice list. But the problem is not one of those points gets me excited. Especially not to buy a £50 game that I will need to buy expansions for. Even then I won't have everything as I wont be getting it on PS4.

There are tons of great games coming out all the time, especially FPS game. I don't really need another Destiny.
Click to expand...

That's a fair opinion really. It has all that stuff but you're not excited about it. It happens.

What's odd is other people saying it's hardly changed when it kinda has. A lot.
 
T

The Wraith

Member
Game screams of rush job. They didn't want to be overtaken by Activision so they needed to get this out as soon as possible. Very underwhelming reveal.
 
VincentMatts

VincentMatts

Member
Usually when Bungie worked on Halo, the games looked vastly different even when using the same characters and enemies.

Halo 1 doesnt look as good as 2, and 2 doesnt look as good as 3 and so on. Graphically, they all took a leap.

D2 looks like D1 but in new areas. There doesnt seem to be any substantial leap visually from D1.
 
R

Ryuuga

Banned
It's neither a half-measure nor an expansion. An expansion usually expands upon existing content. With Destiny 2 we're getting new activities, subclasses and story to replace that of what was available in the older game. So to me it's more like a reboot of Destiny and that kind of bums me out. It's like instead of expanding upon the content there will be intervals where everything is dialed back to default.
 
K

Killer Queen

Banned
BraXzy said:
Things that could have been added (without changing the core experience) to make D2 give me sequel vibes:

A fourth entirely new class.

New enemy types.. maybe they've come from out of our system after finding word of the traveler?

An entirely new game mode. We've had strikes, raids and nightfalls... They're great and I look forward to new ones but it's still just iterating on the same ideas.

Space flight / combat. Something much requested and would be awesome to have.

Meaningful boss mechanics. Not just another health bar to shoot.
Click to expand...

More open and varied play spaces

Better designed strikes

There's so much more they could have fixed.
 
K

Kyne

Member
Bold One said:
A lot and I mean A LOT of people still have Desitny from 2014 in their heads and refuse to acknowledge that the game has changed by metric fucktons.

Which makes the DLC jibes more baffling actually.
Click to expand...

actually, it makes a LOT of sense.

this is GAF, where 80% of the people don't even play games, they just talk about them. The majority of people who are complaining about this Destiny 2 stuff are

a) people who played Destiny 1 for a month and quit
b) people who saw the drama behind the first couple of months in Destiny and just like to talk about it

anyone who's been around long enough to be involved with TKK knows that the game has drastically changed and everything announced is probably going to make it GOTY material.
 
Y

yanipheonu

Member
What I wonder is if this complaint be levied against other game sequels.

Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Far Cry, and Pokemon, are all incredibly similar in each sequel. Usually the changes are to more minute aspects of the game, and the overall game remains mostly the same.

Are these also "DLC Sequels?" If not, why are they different?

Bear in mind, I chose those examples cause I like those series. But i can't deny the sequels are very similar.

I'd argue some games, many games, are incredibly similar for each entry. I see no reason to think Destiny is a uniquely bad case. If anything it does more than other sequels to stand apart.
 
R

Rodney McKay

Member
I'm someone who never actually played Destiny 1, but I was looking forward to Destiny 2.

I'm glad it's adding Raid matchmaking which was a one of the things that kept me away from D1. Another thing that kept me away from D1 was the lack of interesting story and/or single player content; all I heard about the game and saw from playthroughs was that so much of the structure was the basic go to area, push button, defend area against waves of enemies. This was something Bungie seemed to start doing more and more ever since Halo ODST (Halo Reach had it a LOT) and horde mode type stuff isn't my favorite thing (as its own mode sure, but not as a main portion of a single player).

Honestly, I just haven't seen enough of D2 to judge whether it's enough of an improvement that it'll get me to buy it. It doesn't sound like there's a lot of areas at launch (and the ones it does have didn't look or sound particularly interesting). The gameplay looked a little more action packed from the demo, but that was obviously a big opening setpiece, so I'll have to see if the rest of the game keeps up that quality.

So as someone who's only experience with Destiny 1 was videos online (Giant Bomb quicklooks and Raid playthroughs mainly), D2 really didn't look THAT different to me at its reveal, and a lot of the small (but meaningful I'm sure) tweaks don't mean a lot to me as a someone new to the series.

I guess I was expecting a more noticeable bump in quality like from Borderlands 1 to Borderlands 2; new classes (all except the soldier were new in B2), very obvious bump in graphics (not saying D2 looks bad, just not that big of a leap from what I've seen so far), immediately noticeable changes to the loot (haven't seen enough of D2 to know yet, but B2 added a full new Slag elemental type that changed the game quite a lot), new types of loot (again, maybe D2 will have this, but in B2 it added class mods as a new loot item which was a pretty meaningful type of loot).

Granted, I had played B1 before B2, so maybe the difference were more immediate to me because of that compared to D1 and D2. I'm still looking forward to seeing more of D2 and still might get it depending on what I see leading up to release and what the player/reviewer impressions are like. It helps it's on PC too, so it will at least look and play nice and smooth,
 
Alexander DeLarge

Alexander DeLarge

Member
I can't really blame anyone for feeling like that. Their showcase didn't really show any of the open world changes in action (which are the biggest changes of all).
 
I

Interficium

Banned
Xeroblade said:
but its only Quality of Life improvements. We have been asking for these changes for awhile now. During that reveal they spoke as if they were giving us an uprgrade, new missions, a new raid, a new strike, new weapons, etc
Click to expand...

What kind of weird fucking 1984 doublespeak is this.
 
K

KodaRuss

Member
I guess I was kinda hoping for the game to take place in a different time period or something. Maybe during the Golden Age or when the City was first built.

Give me all new characters because outside of 1 (Cayde - 6), I could care less about them.
 
K

Kor of Memory

Member
Interficium said:
Or, closer to home for Bungie, how about how they "ruined" Halo with Halo 2, 3, and Reach by making too many changes to the Halo formula, according to Gaf?

It's funny, nobody was bitching about "reused" covenant assets or forerunner architecture in those sequels, either.
Click to expand...

No because people were too busy being excited about Brutes! Scarabs! Dual Wielding! Jet-Packs! Forge Mode! Theatre Mode! 4 player co-op!

I could give you a bullet list of every amazing feature Halo 2, 3, and Reach did off the top of my head and they'd still look better than our new feature list for Destiny 2.

Truth is Destiny 2 doesn't have a megaton! The group finder is their most marketable new feature. It's their best word of mouth advertising, and simply put, it's not that great.
 
7

7DollarHagane

Banned
Kyne said:
titanfall > titanfall 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"
mirrors edge > mirrors edge 2 = "too many changes! you fucked it up!"

destiny > destiny 2 = "not enough changes! you fucked it up!"

¯_(ツ)_/¯
Click to expand...

Idk who was complaining about Titanfall 2 being too different but mirror's edge had problems beyond "different" it just wasn't a well designed game or good story.
 
D

DrBo42

Member
yanipheonu said:
What I wonder is if this complaint be levied against other game sequels.

Assassin's Creed, Call of Duty, Far Cry, and Pokemon, are all incredibly similar in each sequel. Usually the changes are to more minute aspects of the game, and the overall game remains mostly the same.

Are these also "DLC Sequels?" If not, why are they different?

Bear in mind, I chose those examples cause I like those series. But i can't deny the sequels are very similar.

I'd argue some games, many games, are incredibly similar for each entry. I see no reason to think Destiny is a uniquely bad case. If anything it does more than other sequels to stand apart.
Click to expand...

Should probably specify with that one. Destiny 2 wishes it could be that jump from AC1 to AC2.
 
K

Kyne

Member
7DollarHagane said:
Idk who was complaining about Titanfall 2 being too different but mirror's edge had problems beyond "different" it just wasn't a well designed game or good story.
Click to expand...

the beta threads for TF2 were hammered with negative feedback about the game losing its "fluid" motion and the switch to "hero" titans.

then the game came out and the campaign made everyone forget about it (plus they improved it based off the feedback from the beta).
 
U

UberLevi

Member
DrBo42 said:
Sequels (or at least the good ones) tend to evolve from the first on multiple fronts. That demo offered us more of the same with some reworked class bells and whistles.
Click to expand...

Game development takes years and Destiny receives constant updates.

What that means is Destiny was receiving DLC at the same time Destiny 2 was being made. Which leads me to believe that Destiny 1 DLC was tailored to introduce features that would later be expanded on in Destiny 2. The other thing that implies is that what we get out of Destiny 2 is going to evolve over time. We've seen that with Destiny 1. We know the game was way different at launch than it is now.

Destiny 2 doesn't look drastically different because, if I can be honest, it isn't. But it's going to be. Destiny 1 was constantly changing and now it's better than it's ever been (for the most part). Buying the sequel isn't going to immediately triple the arsenal and add 10 new planets plus everything from the first game. But maybe by Destiny 2 Year 3 it will look a lot closer to that.

We haven't played what Destiny 2 has to offer. We should take the time to absorb all the wealth of content it will offer before asking for more. Because there will be. It's Destiny, there's always more.
 
A

atr0cious

Member
Interficium said:
Or, closer to home for Bungie, how about how they "ruined" Halo with Halo 2, 3, and Reach by making too many changes to the Halo formula, according to Gaf?

It's funny, nobody was bitching about "reused" covenant assets or forerunner architecture in those sequels, either.
Click to expand...
No one is asking them to change things like toss out the best gun in the game for ineffective pistols, many critics seem to acknowledge how great Destiny's gameplay loop feels. And that wouldn't be a visual substantial change either, since the main issue is that Destiny is Guild wars style mmo that's at odds with itself when it comes to presentation and mission design. For better or worse, guild wars 2 evolved and overhauled itself beyond adding more classes, and GW1 is probably the best example of early games as a service.
 
P

Pundere

Member
Also can I say that they did an awful job of making the new subclasses look even remotely interesting?

The Swordlock looks like a flying Sunbreaker, the Staff Hunter looks almost identical to Blade Dancer, and Shield Titan is Blade Dancer with a block.

The lack (so far) of new, interesting classes or subclasses is a huge downside for me. I've played hundreds of hours with the D1 classes, give me something completely different.
 
R

ROUGE_BLOCK

Member
Well the biggest problems is what everyones saying, it looks way too much like Destiny 1 which will.be crux people will keep circling to until they show something radically different that wouldnt have been possible in the first Destiny. So they could be saving stuff like new enemy types and some new key feature for E3 but, as of right now if you told someone this is a new Destiny expansion and not a sequel there's a good likelihood they would believe you.
 
E

ExVicis

Member
Interficium said:
Or, closer to home for Bungie, how about how they "ruined" Halo with Halo 2, 3, and Reach by making too many changes to the Halo formula, according to Gaf?

It's funny, nobody was bitching about "reused" covenant assets or forerunner architecture in those sequels, either.
Click to expand...


f8e56c69fec263a38ec7be9297865959.png


maxresdefault.jpg
Click to expand...

These look pretty different even now, and they looked way different back then.

InsaneTiger said:
I'm done arguing to haters about Destiny. I know what I want from Destiny, I know what to expect from Destiny. I think it looks great and expands and improves upon what was built. This is he beginning of a new foundation for the world of Destiny. I look forward to diving in with my fellow Guardians.
Click to expand...

well you don't need to tell us about it, just stop going around and calling everyone not hyped "haters"
 
C

Complicated

Banned
Everything you listed (except for better graphics) were things I expected would have been put into Destiny. That was after I got over the fact that a lot of them weren't in Destiny when it launched.

Minor/cosmetic changes to a flawed game, and no-brainer feature additions are a fraction of what I wanted out of Destiny 2. That's not even touching on the embarrassing technical problems with the game (30fps competitive multiplayer without dedicated servers).
 
G

Gator86

Member
Kyne said:
the beta threads for TF2 were hammered with negative feedback about the game losing its "fluid" motion and the switch to "hero" titans.

then the game came out and the campaign made everyone forget about it (plus they improved it based off the feedback from the beta).
Click to expand...

Yeah, Respawn did that to themselves, to some extent. The beta was not good. The actual game was my Goty last year. I don't think that's a good comparison here to argue Bungie couldn't change the game too much.
 
R

randomengine

Banned
StalkerUKCG said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but this seems like a really silly complaint.

Just off the top of my head

A complete rework of at least 3 sub classes
A complete rework of the weapon loadout
An entirely new story
Improved Graphics
4 entirely new locations
A slew of new strikes
A slew of new MP maps
A reworking of game currency
A reworking of multiplayer across the board
LFG systems and Guilds
Friendly AI characters during gameplay
Improvements to how activities can be launched
Entirely new loot
At least 3 new weapon archetypes
+more I'm very likely missing

Why does Destiny 2 look like DLC but Uncharted 2 or Borderlands 2 or Halo 2 or Mirrors Edge 2 or basically any other sequel doesn't "look like DLC"

Even in Destiny's big DLC Taken King we only got 1 new location and some mild system quality of life improvements. Destiny 1 was certainly a game that evolved but not too the degree that D2 is changing things.

Additionally why does it matter if it looks like "DLC" or more specifically an Expansion.

World of Warcraft gets similar priced "expansions" frequently and that's a game that require a monthly sub to play. People don't really complain then.

I'm basically just trying to understand the perspective of people who feel this is more like a DLC than a Sequel and what basis they are using for comparison
Click to expand...

I take it you are not familiar with MMO expansions. All of that reads like the next WoW expansion in terms of new content. A sequel should be an entirely new game built from the ground up - at least it used to be in the Ultima days...
 
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