Support NeoGAF

BladeWorker · Mar 1, 2012

maharg said:
The Liberals have always been whatever they needed to be to get elected, and slowly that has lost them all their power bases except one: Ontario. The Liberal party as it currently stands does not stand for any kind of ideal, not even one as wishy-washy as centrism.

True, but they don't even have that base anymore. Where you cannot capture the imagination of Ontarians, you cannot capture their votes.

Oh, and as long as McGuinty's in power, the federal Liberals will have a hard time convincing Ontarians that they need another McGuinty in the PM's chair. Somehow, they've grown quite attached to this whole "balance" thing.

At any rate, the left split's impact has absolutely been overstated. And a lot of Liberals break to Conservative as the Liberal vote collapses. But in the last election, when it seemed very most important for them to do so, the CPC only managed about a single points' worth of growth out of the threat of an NDP-led coalition. Liberal swing voters are just plain not a big growth area anymore, and a hell of a lot more of them are willing to swing left than right. Polls show that pretty clearly. The right wing of the Liberal party already left years ago.

I agree with the first statement here but while many more Liberals will break blue than blue will break red (Conservatives have always had a broader and more solid base), the mushy Liberal vote just doesn't show up if they don't hear something good from dear leader. They don't swing so much as they simply get off the playground.

What is left of the "Liberal Swing Vote" once you take out the red tories are actually mushy NDP and always have been, they've just been afraid to vote NDP because they never thought they had a viable chance, until Quebec voters sniffed a strong waft of citrus. They were socially left and economically left and "liked the ideas of the NDP and thought they had a role to play in Parliament" but didn't want them actually in power because they might bankrupt the country. So they voted for the people who governed by public opinion poll.

Now it's okay to ID as a swing dipper. Even though they now stand for about the same number of policies that the Liberals do.

squidyj · Mar 1, 2012

maharg said:
But then who will they put in the new prisons they plan to build?

Honestly, I can't even get over how bad a policy the minimum sentencing/more prisons thing is. Are we the only chumps on the planet who will look at a declining crime rate and treat that as a cause for grave concern over people with pot? I think we must be.

I think my favourite part of what seems to be 90% of conservative legislation is this.

PMO's Office> Yeahhh, we're gonna go ahead and make this legislation because *insert pandering ideological reasoning* experts totally agree with us
Experts> No! What you are doing is less than useless and in fact completely counterproductive
PMO's Office> Yeahhhhhhhh, we're gonna go ahead and do it anyway, kthx.

Zzoram · Mar 1, 2012

Liberals need a leader who can win Western votes, instead of always ceding the middle provinces to the Conservatives.

squidyj · Mar 1, 2012

Zzoram said:
Liberals need a leader who can win Western votes, instead of always ceding the middle provinces to the Conservatives.

I'd probably still vote NDP but maybe....

I mean, it would be nice to give the conservative party a heart attack.

maharg · Mar 1, 2012

Zzoram said:
Liberals need a leader who can win Western votes, instead of always ceding the middle provinces to the Conservatives.

People in the prairies are still too angry about the NEP. Want to see an Albertan turn red? Say something nice about Trudeau. Even if they weren't even born when he was PM. The prairies' dependence on resource extraction has only deepened since then.

Since then, the only time the Liberals did well was when the PC party split. And they weren't really doing much better than before, they were just winning because of a real split.

The Liberals could nominate a former CPC cabinet member from Alberta as their leader and it would still only gain them a seat or two out here.

BladeWorker said:
True, but they don't even have that base anymore. Where you cannot capture the imagination of Ontarians, you cannot capture their votes.

Oh, and as long as McGuinty's in power, the federal Liberals will have a hard time convincing Ontarians that they need another McGuinty in the PM's chair. Somehow, they've grown quite attached to this whole "balance" thing.

I agree with the first statement here but while many more Liberals will break blue than blue will break red (Conservatives have always had a broader and more solid base), the mushy Liberal vote just doesn't show up if they don't hear something good from dear leader. They don't swing so much as they simply get off the playground.

What is left of the "Liberal Swing Vote" once you take out the red tories are actually mushy NDP and always have been, they've just been afraid to vote NDP because they never thought they had a viable chance, until Quebec voters sniffed a strong waft of citrus. They were socially left and economically left and "liked the ideas of the NDP and thought they had a role to play in Parliament" but didn't want them actually in power because they might bankrupt the country. So they voted for the people who governed by public opinion poll.

Now it's okay to ID as a swing dipper. Even though they now stand for about the same number of policies that the Liberals do.

Not sure if any of this is actually disagreeing with what I said, but it mostly aligns with what I *meant* at least.

I think the idea that there's some numerically significant percentage of people who are afraid of the NDP bankrupting the country who would *ever* vote for them is basically an urban legend, though. Since the Liberals lost Quebec, their only means to prevent a complete collapse in their vote has been attempts to suppress the NDP vote. That doesn't work anymore and I think that's probably a permanent change.

BladeWorker · Mar 1, 2012

Zzoram said:
Liberals need a leader who can win Western votes, instead of always ceding the middle provinces to the Conservatives.

Electoral math still favours Ontario and Quebec, thanks to more than half the population living in EST.

In close races, Alberta and BC come to matter more, as we've seen. And, shockingly, these close races have favoured the Conservatives of late.

gabbo · Mar 1, 2012

BladeWorker said:
True, but they don't even have that base anymore. Where you cannot capture the imagination of Ontarians, you cannot capture their votes.

Oh, and as long as McGuinty's in power, the federal Liberals will have a hard time convincing Ontarians that they need another McGuinty in the PM's chair. Somehow, they've grown quite attached to this whole "balance" thing.

If that's the case, huge upswing for NDP/Liberals on federal scale in Ontario in four years.

Guesong · Mar 1, 2012

I'm kind of not liking where the next election is going, as a Quebecer.

Sure, it's in a couple years...but who are we crazy people going to vote for when the time comes?

Unless NPD goes with Mulcair as leader (which they probably won't, with them being focused on the West as if Quebec was not their base atm), I expect a big drop in support there. Liberals are scarred forever unless the new leader is like...Denis Coderre, or something, but that won't happen. Though I do like Bob Rae, but eh. And unless the CPC changes their leader (as I don't think Quebec is opposed to some conservative government as much as they are opposed to Harper himself), nothing would change either.

I suppose it would be the time for a Bloc resurgence...dammit. We really need a new electoral system.

BladeWorker · Mar 1, 2012

gabbo said:
If that's the case, huge upswing for NDP/Liberals on federal scale in Ontario in four years.

Maybe. Balance is a preference; strong leaders and party affinity are preconditions of vote.

Edit: and the Conservatives have to implode.

maharg · Mar 1, 2012

Guesong said:
Unless NPD goes with Mulcair as leader (which they probably won't, with them being focused on the West as if Quebec was not their base atm), I expect a big drop in support there.

I'd put money on Mulcair winning.

BladeWorker · Mar 1, 2012

maharg said:
I'd put money on Mulcair winning.

I feel bad now for not following the NDP race more closely. All those debates, all that debate bingo.

So many opportunities missed.

percephone · Mar 1, 2012

crazy monkey said:
What did I bought last year than haha.

You're just a landholder. You own "an interest in an estate in land in fee simple" to quote the medieval terms.

Freehold is tenure not ownership although you get it in perpetuity. you also can mortgage it or cede "ownership".

Queen Elizabeth II is the biggest landowner in the world. 6,600 millions of acres; 2,467 of them in Canada. When the Royals visit. They are just inspecting the property. haha

gutter_trash · Mar 1, 2012

you guys are really active now uh? where was the outrage in May 2011 when it was time to vote?

we all knew what a Conservative majority would be and we let it happen and now we are stuck with it for 4 years in a British Parliamentary system

so 4 years from now: vote properly!

NDP needs to avoid getting into the tax the rich shit or else they will get slaughtered in expensive urban centers

ManDudeChild · Mar 1, 2012

gutter_trash said:
you guys are really active now uh? where was the outrage in May 2011 when it was time to vote?

we all knew what a Conservative majority would be and we let it happen and now we are stuck with it for 4 years in a British Parliamentary system

so 4 years from now: vote properly!

NDP needs to avoid getting into the tax the rich shit or else they will get slaughtered in expensive urban centers

Let it happen?

maharg · Mar 1, 2012

gutter_trash said:
you guys are really active now uh? where was the outrage in May 2011 when it was time to vote?

Uh. Right. Are you assuming we didn't vote?

crazy monkey · Mar 1, 2012

percephone said:
You're just a landholder. You own "an interest in an estate in land in fee simple" to quote the medieval terms.

Freehold is tenure not ownership although you get it in perpetuity. you also can mortgage it or cede "ownership".

Queen Elizabeth II is the biggest landowner in the world. 6,600 millions of acres; 2,467 of them in Canada. When the Royals visit. They are just inspecting the property. haha

wtf

Zombie James · Mar 1, 2012

Taxpayers cough up $12-million for ads touting Flahertys budget:

Taxpayers are footing the bill for more than $12-million in government ads that just happen to sport the same title as the next Conservative budget.

The bulk of the spending comes from the Canada Revenue Agency, which has budgeted $7.5-million for a tax-season campaign that began in January and includes the central message: creating jobs and growth.

Finance Canada has budgeted $4.9-million for a similar campaign that pounds the jobs and growth mantra three times in each 30-second ad.

Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced this week the federal spending blueprint will be tabled March 29 under the title Jobs and Growth Budget.

Economists say the irony is that the government-wide message and its taxpayer-funded promotion comes ahead of a budget that Conservative ministers say will deeply slash spending, creating a drag on growth.

And Jonathan Rose, a Queen's University expert in political communication, says the Harper government should not be using tax dollars for partisan ads to promote a budget that hasn't yet been delivered.

Repeat the same garbage enough times and people will believe it.

EvilMario · Mar 1, 2012

gutter_trash said:
you guys are really active now uh? where was the outrage in May 2011 when it was time to vote?

wat. We had over 6000 post in the 2011 elections thread. Go back and check, many of us were bemoaning the results, but they are what they are.

gabbo · Mar 1, 2012

gutter_trash said:
NDP needs to avoid getting into the tax the rich shit or else they will get slaughtered in expensive urban centers

They might as well put up a red flag and call themselves Liberals at that point. Raising corporate tax rates is something they need to push for harder as the Conservatives slash our public services.

Cynar · Mar 2, 2012

Parch said:
Harper isn't perfect, but in the big picture he hasn't hurt the country as much as previous Liberal governments. Any criticism for Harper is exaggerated hyperbole. The wrath of Harperland? Puhlease. Biased much?
While the American economy has gone down the toilet, the Canadian economy has remained stable. It isn't the end of Canadian world under Harper's command. They're not perfect, but Conservatives are not and probably will not be the disasterous downfall to this country that some seem to want to believe.

The guy and his party spent our surplus, slashed public spending and is driving our country deeper into deficit every day. Not only that they are corrupt and use their political ideology to pass new laws. First step was removing the long form census so we can't have accurate data and lo-and behold, shitty just

I miss the old Conservative party before the nutjob Reform/Canadian Alliance took over. At least we had some socially liberal views along with the fiscal conservatism. Now all we get is right wing ideological religious conservatism with less transparency than when we had the liberals in power who balanced our budgets. /rant

lacinius · Mar 2, 2012

More about the robo-calls... so why does the Conservative Party get to review all the tapes of every call made in the last election from a particular call centre BEFORE the investigators from Election's Canada arrive next week?!?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/03/01/pol-robocalls-elections-canada.html

Is this how the Harper Government intends to fully support and endorse the investigation by Election's Canada into the matter... by getting in there ahead of the investigators? Are we now just supposed to take their word for it if Harper later comes back and says nothing was found, and it's all just a "smear campaign" because there is no proof?!?

Zombie James · Mar 2, 2012

lacinius said:
More about the robo-calls... so why does the Conservative Party get to review all the tapes of every call made in the last election from a particular call centre BEFORE the investigators from Election's Canada arrive next week?!?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/03/01/pol-robocalls-elections-canada.html

Is this how the Harper Government intends to fully support and endorse the investigation by Election's Canada into the matter... by getting in there ahead of the investigators? Are we now just supposed to take their word for it if Harper later comes back and says nothing was found, and it's all just a "smear campaign" because there is no proof?!?

This is infuriating.

Bruiserk · Mar 2, 2012

Does anyone know of a site that will summarize the NDP debates with what each candidate talked about/responded with?

key word here is "summarize" (so if it is possible to have a source that doesn't just give a full transcript of the debate, please choose that one).

Canuck76 · Mar 2, 2012

crazy monkey said:
Canadian GAF checking in. Topic to discuss: Do you want to continue monarchy after queen?

I do not want. I am against it right now. We need to get on with the time. Why should my son should say some dude his king? One of the reasons why I did not join army right away.

I'm with you, being against it. We'll always be allies with those post English colonies but were a different society and need to break and be our own entity

lacinius · Mar 2, 2012

Zombie James said:
This is infuriating.

It is... because it was only back in November, 2011 that the Conservative Party pleaded GUILTY to illegal campaign advertising tactics in the 2006 campaign that brought Stephen Harper to power... such integrity, and then they dismiss all this as nothing more than a "smear campaign". :\

Neki · Mar 2, 2012

gutter_trash said:
you guys are really active now uh? where was the outrage in May 2011 when it was time to vote?

we all knew what a Conservative majority would be and we let it happen and now we are stuck with it for 4 years in a British Parliamentary system

so 4 years from now: vote properly!

NDP needs to avoid getting into the tax the rich shit or else they will get slaughtered in expensive urban centers

I'm sure GAF is to blame for this conservative majority, rofl.

squidyj · Mar 2, 2012

Ultimoo said:
I'm sure GAF is to blame for this conservative majority, rofl.

I'm sorry guys, It's all my fault, I know, I feel terrible.

Big-E · Mar 2, 2012

Zombie James said:
This is infuriating.

Ya, this is garbage. I can't of like being in China sometimes.

EDIT: China has screwed up my spelling. Jesus I suck.

gabbo · Mar 2, 2012

lacinius said:
It is... because it was only back in November, 2011 that the Conservative Party pleaded GUILTY to illegal campaign advertising tactics in the 2006 campaign that brought Stephen Harper to power... such integrity, and then they dismiss all this as nothing more than a "smear campaign". :\

They're deflecting now: It was the Liberals own voting reminder calls from an AMERICAN company that caused all of this, and the Cons did nothing wrong.
Only Harper would take pride in using a Canadian firm to commit election fraud. These scams are job creators. I said two weeks ago that Vik Toews was scum, but it's really his whole party.

Buba Big Guns · Mar 2, 2012

Zzoram said:
I'm what you might call a swing vote.

I voted for Harper initially because he promised to get rid of the massively over budget long gun registry and enforce Canada's claim on the arctic but now I'm no longer a supporter. I think his new minimum prison sentences and plans to build more big prisons to accommodate all the new prisoners he wants to create is a terrible social policy. The US went crazy with putting everyone in jail for minor drug offenses and it's gotten them nowhere other than the poor house. It's foolish to copy a failed model.

Also, I'm really against his policies to suppress government information. A functioning democracy needs a transparent government.

The Liberals badly need a leader that doesn't stammer like a fool on TV.

I don't understand...all of this was known before the election, but you only realize it now?

BigJonsson · Mar 2, 2012

If true, the media and the NDP/Libs need to keep talking about it and hammer it into the heads of Canadians because Canadians have shown a lack of memory the last few years

Snowdrift · Mar 2, 2012

Frankly, I don't see this robocall controversy gaining much traction outside those who actively follow federal politics. The average voter has such a low perception of political parties that any kind of election tampering to this degree isn't very shocking. Until Elections Canada and the RCMP come down definitively on one side or the other, the opposition doesn't have much track to run with on this issue. My guess is that it dies out by the end of next week.

The Liberals would be better served planning their media strategy for the upcoming budget, based upon what has been leaked, so as to help regain some of the credibility built up during the often romanticized Chretien/Martin days.

maharg · Mar 2, 2012

There's a difference between political apathy as applied to partisan politics and apathy towards actual election fraud. If we as a country can't get worked up about that we may as well just not bother having elections anymore.

Cheerilee · Mar 2, 2012

SRG01 said:
There has been no real effort by the Conservative party to track down those responsible for the Robocalls and fake Elections Canada representatives.

CBC News said:
The Conservative Party is reviewing tapes of every call made by the Responsive Marketing Group call centre in Thunder Bay, Ont.

lacinius said:
so why does the Conservative Party get to review all the tapes of every call made in the last election from a particular call centre BEFORE the investigators from Election's Canada arrive next week?!?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

lacinius · Mar 2, 2012

gabbo said:
They're deflecting now: It was the Liberals own voting reminder calls from an AMERICAN company that caused all of this, and the Cons did nothing wrong.

This article refutes that claim by the Conservatives of the American companies.

Big-E · Mar 2, 2012

maharg said:
There's a difference between political apathy as applied to partisan politics and apathy towards actual election fraud. If we as a country can't get worked up about that we may as well just not bother having elections anymore.

Exactly. Well said.

Loofy · Mar 2, 2012

crazy monkey said:
Canadian GAF checking in. Topic to discuss: Do you want to continue monarchy after queen?

I do not want. I am against it right now. We need to get on with the time. Why should my son should say some dude his king? One of the reasons why I did not join army right away.

When the queen passes does her face leave our bills?
We'll have riots if they decided to put charles mug on anything.

Snowdrift · Mar 2, 2012

maharg said:
There's a difference between political apathy as applied to partisan politics and apathy towards actual election fraud. If we as a country can't get worked up about that we may as well just not bother having elections anymore.

I agree, but, while the evidence seems to suggest that some illicit activity has taken place, this hasn't fully moved beyond a partisan issue until Elections Canada and the RCMP announce the results of their investigations. The public IMO is discounting what the opposition has to say until such time as a non-partisan government body comes down on one side or the other.

None of the scandals the opposition have tried to paint on the Conservatives have stuck over the years. By all means, bring this issue to the forefront, but the opposition isn't going to be successful building a party platform around it, which is something the Liberals need to be focusing on a lot more. The opposition was correct to bring the issue forward, but I don't see anything else they can do to that will advance the narrative, now that Elections Canada and the RCMP are investigating.

Even during the height of the Sponsorship Scandal the Liberals came out of the 2004 and 2006 elections with 36.7% and 30.2% of the popular vote. I would posit that this speaks to the public's willingness to overlook certain issues towards a perceived governing party when there still exists anxiety about releasing the reigns to the opposition.

A lot of people talk about how Harper has been a brilliant strategist over the years, but really, once in government, he has counted on voter apathy to keep him in power. A little ironic considering how he was able to tap into the anger over the Sponsorship Scandal. Even then, he still needed to present a platform, no matter how stupid (GST cuts), that was palatable enough to the public to sweep the Liberals out of power.

It will be interesting to see which story garner the front page heading into the weekend. Netanyahu or the Robocall Scandal.

crazy monkey · Mar 2, 2012

Loofy said:
When the queen passes does her face leave our bills?
We'll have riots if they decided to put charles mug on anything.

haha. I would not mind having face of polar bear and beaver on it lol. Frankly they represent my country more. Plus there are countless innovators and famous person to put on it.

Stumpokapow · Mar 2, 2012

Loofy said:
When the queen passes does her face leave our bills?

Never seen an old bill?

djkimothy · Mar 2, 2012

squidyj said:
I'm sorry guys, It's all my fault, I know, I feel terrible.

If you're from Toronto then yes, you should be.

Parch · Mar 2, 2012

I think Canadian politics have excessive mud slinging and voters have really gotten sick of it. I also think it was a big factor in the last crushing Liberal defeat. Yes, I know, both sides do it, but the Liberals do it a lot. A huge part of their platform is criticizing the opposition.

After the first Harper win the Liberal party met in Red Deer for the sole purpose of finding trash on Conservatives party members. They will dig through the garbage, overblow every little slip, and simply create criticism like a bunch of tabloid journalists. Many feel that this type of sleaze politics doesn't represent Canadians and is only self serving.

The last provincial election in Alberta was laughable. OK, the Liberals had no chance, but they really made fools of themselves. 100% of TV and radio ads was mud slinging. 100%. They never once talked about any issues, they spent every moment trying to insult and criticize the Conservatives. It backfired bigtime. It really turned off the voters and they lost by a bigger margin than expected, and they received a huge amount of criticism for this blatant mud slinging campaign. They went way too far.

The Liberals have lost a lot of credibility and need to be careful how much crap they throw. People are sick of it. They need to talk about what they're going to do instead of focusing everything on what the Conservatives are doing with mock and ridicule. Talk about the issues for a change, because voters are really getting sick of sleaze politics.

I'm not going to cut the Conservatives any slack either because they had their share of attack ads too. It seems to be the way in Canadian politics nowadays, and Canadians need to be given a little more credit in assuming that they don't see through these mud slinging campaigns. There is a huge chance that these tactics are going to backfire, and a little more integrity, honesty, and focus on the issues at hand will gain more respect than the BS trash talking and mud slinging that now seems to be the norm.

pr0cs · Mar 2, 2012

It's interesting to read this thread living in the prairies, this thread's sentiment is like 100% totally opposite how people think here. I presume a lot of the posters in this thread are from the eastern provinces.

BladeWorker · Mar 3, 2012

maharg said:
There's a difference between political apathy as applied to partisan politics and apathy towards actual election fraud. If we as a country can't get worked up about that we may as well just not bother having elections anymore.

I agree, but the reason the voter suppression calls worked in the first place was because people were already pretty cynical.

In any event, the part I don't get: How the live phone callers managed to change the phone script without telling their end-client. And knowing who their end-client was when an end-client wasn't identified in the script.

Both are WAY above a caller's paygrade.

SRG01 · Mar 3, 2012

pr0cs said:
It's interesting to read this thread living in the prairies, this thread's sentiment is like 100% totally opposite how people think here. I presume a lot of the posters in this thread are from the eastern provinces.

Most Albertans I know are pretty pissed off, so I don't know what you're talking about.

I live in E-town.

iddqd · Mar 3, 2012

Canada gaf,
I`ve only lived in your country for a little while..
What are some good news websites that are light on fluff and a bit heavier on good
news/opinion pieces?

thanks for recommendations!

bryehn · Mar 3, 2012

iddqd said:
Canada gaf,
I`ve only lived in your country for a little while..
What are some good news websites that are light on fluff and a bit heavier on good
news/opinion pieces?

thanks for recommendations!

A couple buddies of mine run DigitalJournal, which is basically crowdsourced journalism with pretty unbiased editors. Lots of Op-Ed stuff, reporters from 100+ countries and they pay you if you write something and it gets hits.

edit: for Canadian-only (poli especially) news it's tough, but I actually like CBC, at least they try to be transparent in some ways.

BladeWorker · Mar 3, 2012

iddqd said:
Canada gaf,
I`ve only lived in your country for a little while..
What are some good news websites that are light on fluff and a bit heavier on good
news/opinion pieces?

thanks for recommendations!

Content-Focused:
Hill Times
The Mark

Moderate:
Maclean's
Huffington Post Canada

Standard News:
CBC Politics
National Post
Globe & Mail
iPolitics

Aggregators and Miscellany:
National Newswatch
Bourque
Threehundredeight
Pundits Guide

gabbo · Mar 3, 2012

iddqd said:
Canada gaf,
I`ve only lived in your country for a little while..
What are some good news websites that are light on fluff and a bit heavier on good
news/opinion pieces?

thanks for recommendations!

CBC is generally pretty good, though you will see people say otherwise.
I've been reading Rabble a lot lately (www.rabble.ca), but that's left-leaning if you want completely neutral views.

lacinius said:
It is... because it was only back in November, 2011 that the Conservative Party pleaded GUILTY to illegal campaign advertising tactics in the 2006 campaign that brought Stephen Harper to power... such integrity, and then they dismiss all this as nothing more than a "smear campaign". :\

Even with that being the case, Del Mastro was out again toeing the party line. Caught him on Power and Politics swearing up and down the Liberals did it with their own election reminder calls, and that it's a smear campaign through and through.

squidyj · Mar 3, 2012

pr0cs said:
It's interesting to read this thread living in the prairies, this thread's sentiment is like 100% totally opposite how people think here. I presume a lot of the posters in this thread are from the eastern provinces.

I've lived in Alberta all my life bro.

SRG01 said:
Most Albertans I know are pretty pissed off, so I don't know what you're talking about.

I live in E-town.

So what's it like living in the worst city in Alberta? trololololo

Support NeoGAF

Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

Member

Member

Member

Member

idspispopd

Member

Member

Member

Member

idspispopd

Member

Neo Member

Banned

Member

idspispopd

Banned

Banned

Will QA for food.

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

idspispopd

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

listen to the mad man

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads