I'm actually from NJ. He can back off his statements. He's just mad that he can't grease the hands of the UK press anymore.
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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
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I'm actually from NJ. He can back off his statements. He's just mad that he can't grease the hands of the UK press anymore.
LorDjidane
Member
That's just the same level of intelectual integrity as those people on facebook with "oh noes people are dying from hunger in africa and this is horrible and if you don't copy this message on your wall you're a monster"... while posting from a brand new iphone 5.
Halo?
The bolded just seems weird to be included. I am struggling for the words to describe it. Already talking about the next xbox as a 'must own'? The public doesn't even know what the next xbox is. Much less if it's a must own.
I can't find the proper words to express it. Maybe I am just incorrect on the matter.
Delusibeta
Banned
Good find! Yep, no wonder Kotaku hasn't spoken up officially about this yet. They need to clean house.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
Dude edits videos, does that count?
I mean... I dunno man, I just dunno. Starting to feel more uncomfortable here.
IGN review; huge, massive problem.
Video editor with swag; not sure.
I mean... I dunno man, I just dunno. Starting to feel more uncomfortable here.
IGN review; huge, massive problem.
Video editor with swag; not sure.
To make it harder to avoid.
Did Totilo ever comment specifically on what he did with the AC3 swag like other critics did?
I am so glad that after a week, we are getting to actual improvements. I know this whole thread and this issue hasn't radically changed everything. But I think the progress that's been made is much more than we could have thought. I mean just look at the posts a week ago. We were saying this subject is surely going to be buried at this point, and nothing and no one is going to change.
And on a more personal note, after this thread, I know who to trust and follow and who to stop trusting and stop reading/listening/watching their stuff in the gaming media.
Yup, a bunch of PR and press buddies circle jerking each other.
And on a more personal note, after this thread, I know who to trust and follow and who to stop trusting and stop reading/listening/watching their stuff in the gaming media.
Wait a second, this looks familiar....
Yup, a bunch of PR and press buddies circle jerking each other.
It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Yes, there are far more important world events than what we are discussing here. And no, 100% of your time does not need to be dedicated to tackling, discussing or even thinking about said events.
He's putting a lot of effort into making light of this, and if his intent is to make me feel guilty about the way things are going down, he's not succeeding. Much the opposite, in fact. I think arrogance and belligerence isn't very smart right now.
So what does this say about someone who's actual job is gaming PR? Would you like some cognitive dissonance to go with that dissonant cognizance? What an ass.
stephentotilo
Behind The Games
I don't think I did. This is a screw-up, especially if you're being absolutist about what should be done with swag. In this case, it seems I failed to communicate clearly what my expectations were with swag. That's on me, no one else.
When folks were talking about the flag earlier this week, I was going to comment specifically about how much I disliked the letter, but then I realized that I couldn't remember what happened to the flag, which I figured was either still in the office in the wooden box it came in or given away (not publicly, by the way, because I've always felt that that is as much a free ad as anything else). We'd been sent two flags, and I can't recall where either wound up. Granted, with a flag, disposal is more of a hassle than with other stuff. The bigger point is that this reminds me to remind my team about our swag standards. It's not a standard if we don't enforce it. My error. I've asked Chris to take the flag down and we'll find a way to get rid of it.
We get sent a ton of stuff, and dealing with it is a pain in the ass. Many will say: "Then just tell people you don't want it." It's a little more complicated than that, but that's ultimately the right response. I'll have more on swag, among many other issues, when I run my full piece when Kotaku is restored.
Frankly, I'm glad this was caught because it helps me see where we had a blind spot. You can still take my answers to that Q&A as the standards I believe are proper.
KingItachi
Member
This is just sad.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Throw. the. swag. in. the. fuckin. dumpster. The. end.
Also fire your video editor.
Also fire your video editor.
Can't wait for your article. And Kudos for this post.
Yeah, seems like some overzealous promotions rammed into a review. Definitely not in the best taste.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
It's honesty like this that makes me hopeful. Can't wait to see the article. Good work.
No, obviously Geoff Knightly.
EdwardTivrusky
Member
Indeed.
Don't fire the video editor though.
Perhaps most of the swag could be auctioned for Child's Play, Games Aid or similar? I'm sure the relevant companies wouldn't have an issue with that.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
This is the wrong response. Giant bomb is any other site too.
You forgot to mention the Pizza Hut® Halo 4® Stuffed Crust® Special Edition Pizza®
Yeah, good on him.
TunaMarshmallow
Member
If any of these uneducated (pseudo-)media folks were even 10% interested building a public facade of credibility -- nevermind building *actual* credibility -- they would have a blanket, no-exceptions policy against swag of any kind.
Example: What goods do we accept from publishers and developers? Builds of games and peripherals (for review and preview purposes, strictly). Period. That's it.
It's not complicated.
But this is the games "media".
(ETA - Embarrassed by homophone. Edited quickly. Oh god.)
Example: What goods do we accept from publishers and developers? Builds of games and peripherals (for review and preview purposes, strictly). Period. That's it.
It's not complicated.
But this is the games "media".
(ETA - Embarrassed by homophone. Edited quickly. Oh god.)
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Oh, sure they are. But I like them better than the rest, so, they get my very tiny, pointless vote instead of the other sites. Go me.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
contests, how do they work?
(suggestion: gamingswaggifts.com, dealt with without names (anonymous), entry open for all outlets looking to give away and not be burned for it. Problem solved, no ebay shenanigans required)
chickdigger802
Banned
Octoberkast 2012 Part 8 around 15min mark
- Brad and Jeff from GB talks about stuff that was somewhat covered by the bombcast and other examples, and whitta pitching in from his work with walking dead.
- Brad and Jeff from GB talks about stuff that was somewhat covered by the bombcast and other examples, and whitta pitching in from his work with walking dead.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Meh, I don't care about contests since I never win. Also, takes time away from the journalists doing journalism. Game kit comes, throw everything but the game in the garbage. Seeing a pic of the video editor for a gaming review site's room covered in AC swag is fuckin disgusting. My stomach actually turned at that.
Yea, I read that yesterday. My English Lit High School teacher would not be pleased. You know, it's easy to dismiss hyperbolic bullshit like that and I don't really know if he really feels that way about the game, but man, whatever happened to critical thinking skills.
The worst part is, reading over that Halo review thread, how people are accepting the tone just because it says what they want to hear. At this point I'm not really surprised why some journalists think so badly of us gamers like they do. I mean the ones that put a little more effort into what they write and do, when they read the reaction to reviews like this. It's shameful where people will go, and how nuts they will act due to a number given to it.
I know reviews are more purchasing advice than deep analytical pieces of the game, but you'd think people who are deemed professionals would know the difference between a hype driven hyperbolic review, and a sensible look at what could possibly be one of the best games of the year. I think some of us are very happy keeping the review environment the way it is, and we foster it, giving these kinds of reviews a big big chance to thrive and keep coming.
If we are going to demand stuff from them game journalists, some introspection is required too I think.
Update: Added Brad Shoemaker 1-2, Pocketgamer, Brad Lawrence, Stephen Totilo 20
Current articles/videos/podcasts
Wings over Sealand (Stuart Campbell) articles (second article has early summary) 1 2 3
John Walker's (Rock Paper Shotgun) blog (start with Games Journalists, And The Perception Of Corruption, includes guest post by Rab Florence)
TotalBiscuit
Jim Sterling
Penny-Arcade 1 2
Gamasutra
Forbes
Worthplaying
GiantBomb
Jason Lauritzen editorial and GAF post
RPGCodex writes an excellent summary
Destructoid
BoingBoing
TheSixthAxis
EDGE article that was written a few weeks ago
PlayerOne Podcast
Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell (editor who edited Rab's column) about the last few days
Rock Paper Shotgun official stance
The Guardian and a funny thing related to the article
Giant Bombcast
VG247 on their new ethics statement
Video Games Interactive
Kotaku
Pocketgamer
Videogamer.com
Old (but still relevant) articles/videos/podcasts
Rab Florence (the guy who started all this) criticizing games writing since 2008
An old episode of CGW Radio discussing Gerstmann-gate
Old Gamasutra article on the influence of PR
Old GFW radio bits
1up YoursShawn Elliot and Shane Bettenhausen
Comments from the industry
Shawn Elliot - 1 (aegies is Arthur Gies of polygon.com) 2 3 4 5 6 on the psychology of PR etc
and some more Arthur Gies - 1 2 3 4 5 and some replies 1 2 3
Jeff Green on the way it actually works, and another post, an another
ShockingAlberto on his view as a former games writer
Jason Schreier (Kotaku) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 and many more
N'Gai Croal initial reaction on Twitter
Chris Schilling (freelance) likes both people involved and so doesn't want to write about it
Danny O'Dwyer (Gamespot UK) on why his site won't cover this (audience is not interested) - 1 2 3
pastapadre on being shunned by the industry
Stephen Totilo (Kotaku)doesn't think this is an important story (has changed his mind about that part, read post 9). Wants to focus on good games journalism, this prompted a pretty funny picture and a comment about it, then Stephen Totilo enters the thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 (ignore the comment on 18, couldn't find a direct link to Totilo's comment) 19 20 (in reply to this
Weekend Confirmed 1 2 3
Syriel on his experiences of PR
Jeff Gerstmann short comment on swag
Christian Donlan and Simon Parkin of Eurogamer want to change how they do things[/QUOTE]
Nert on his experience as PR in the tech industry 1 2
John Walker (RPS) onwhy the site won't cover it (they did anyway) like his blog did
Rab Florence tweets
Jeff Gerstmann 1 (1 is from Tumblr) 2 (2 via EternalGamer, highlights some other stuff) 3 4 5 (3-5 are comments by Jeff in this thread)
Christian Spicer
MaxwellGT2000 talks about his experiences as a writer for a small site that got bigger
Dave Long 1 2
Brad Shoemaker 1 (in reply to this) 2
Brad Lawrence (2K games UK PR)
Comments from others
GillianSeed79 and firehawk12 on how journalist do criticize their peers
voodoopanda highlights that the issue is not in any way black or white
Snowden's Secret comments on gaming press reactions
Zissou weighs in
Other relevant/interesting links and examples of PR
Examples of various press kits
The 3DS comes to GiantBomb
Letter sent to reviewers from UbiSoft along with their press copy of Assassin's Creed 3
How Rockstar handled the reviews for GTA4
Battlefield 3 review questionnarie
Current articles/videos/podcasts
Wings over Sealand (Stuart Campbell) articles (second article has early summary) 1 2 3
John Walker's (Rock Paper Shotgun) blog (start with Games Journalists, And The Perception Of Corruption, includes guest post by Rab Florence)
TotalBiscuit
Jim Sterling
Penny-Arcade 1 2
Gamasutra
Forbes
Worthplaying
GiantBomb
Jason Lauritzen editorial and GAF post
RPGCodex writes an excellent summary
Destructoid
BoingBoing
TheSixthAxis
EDGE article that was written a few weeks ago
PlayerOne Podcast
Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell (editor who edited Rab's column) about the last few days
Rock Paper Shotgun official stance
The Guardian and a funny thing related to the article
Giant Bombcast
VG247 on their new ethics statement
Video Games Interactive
Kotaku
Pocketgamer
Videogamer.com
Old (but still relevant) articles/videos/podcasts
Rab Florence (the guy who started all this) criticizing games writing since 2008
An old episode of CGW Radio discussing Gerstmann-gate
Old Gamasutra article on the influence of PR
Old GFW radio bits
1up YoursShawn Elliot and Shane Bettenhausen
Comments from the industry
Shawn Elliot - 1 (aegies is Arthur Gies of polygon.com) 2 3 4 5 6 on the psychology of PR etc
and some more Arthur Gies - 1 2 3 4 5 and some replies 1 2 3
Jeff Green on the way it actually works, and another post, an another
ShockingAlberto on his view as a former games writer
Jason Schreier (Kotaku) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 and many more
N'Gai Croal initial reaction on Twitter
Chris Schilling (freelance) likes both people involved and so doesn't want to write about it
Danny O'Dwyer (Gamespot UK) on why his site won't cover this (audience is not interested) - 1 2 3
pastapadre on being shunned by the industry
Stephen Totilo (Kotaku)
Weekend Confirmed 1 2 3
Syriel on his experiences of PR
Jeff Gerstmann short comment on swag
Christian Donlan and Simon Parkin of Eurogamer want to change how they do things[/QUOTE]
Nert on his experience as PR in the tech industry 1 2
John Walker (RPS) on
Rab Florence tweets
Jeff Gerstmann 1 (1 is from Tumblr) 2 (2 via EternalGamer, highlights some other stuff) 3 4 5 (3-5 are comments by Jeff in this thread)
Christian Spicer
MaxwellGT2000 talks about his experiences as a writer for a small site that got bigger
Dave Long 1 2
Brad Shoemaker 1 (in reply to this) 2
Brad Lawrence (2K games UK PR)
Comments from others
GillianSeed79 and firehawk12 on how journalist do criticize their peers
voodoopanda highlights that the issue is not in any way black or white
Snowden's Secret comments on gaming press reactions
Zissou weighs in
Other relevant/interesting links and examples of PR
Examples of various press kits
The 3DS comes to GiantBomb
Letter sent to reviewers from UbiSoft along with their press copy of Assassin's Creed 3
How Rockstar handled the reviews for GTA4
Battlefield 3 review questionnarie
Kiera Keighley.
EternalGamer
Banned
Kudos to you guys. My respect for both you and your site just went up significantly.
EternalGamer
Banned
I just think the better solution is that gaming websites try to just not get involved with swag at all whenever possible. Turn down what you can, send it back, refuse to accept it, etc.
Foxtastical
Member
Good to read some of those responses Stephen, I appreciate the honesty.
EternalGamer
Banned
We should start a list of words that automatically qualify you as an unpaid PR shill and not a credible, professional reviewer such as "a triumph," "new standard in the genre," "jaw dropping," "masterpiece" etc.
LorDjidane
Member
As some of them said, they don't ask for it. When you receive some swag, you want them to return it. Yet that would take some of their time, some of their money... they'd be victims of the PR system. And that would emphasize the "well fuck it let's keep this in this storage room" and enhance the hostility towards them.
Just wished to say how much of a good idea I think this is.
Foxtastical
Member
I've been checking out some of the links that I missed before, and the 1UP Yours with Shane talking about MGS4 is absolutely fascinating. I'd love to hear his response now to what he said back then. It really feels like an amazing example of the rationalization process involved with cognitive dissonance.
Also I'm now listening to the Octoberkast with Jeff Green. Good stuff, his perspective is sorely missed.
Also I'm now listening to the Octoberkast with Jeff Green. Good stuff, his perspective is sorely missed.
This would suggest that it isn't possible for a game to be any of these things.
I finally caught up to the end of the thread. Wow.
So, I haven't seen a ton of people speak on it but the last couple of pages (with all the Geoff photoshops and needless junkfood craving jokery) were very off-putting to me. So much good work and respectable, civil discussion has been going on between the readers and writers here that those kinds of posts (phrasing this as 'doritosgate' seriously bothers me) just seems very trashy, not to mention counter-productive.
A quick laugh here and there to lighten the mood isn't horrible, but the flood of cheap shots starts to stain the relevant contributions.
So, I haven't seen a ton of people speak on it but the last couple of pages (with all the Geoff photoshops and needless junkfood craving jokery) were very off-putting to me. So much good work and respectable, civil discussion has been going on between the readers and writers here that those kinds of posts (phrasing this as 'doritosgate' seriously bothers me) just seems very trashy, not to mention counter-productive.
A quick laugh here and there to lighten the mood isn't horrible, but the flood of cheap shots starts to stain the relevant contributions.
Wow, somebody sure feels threatened.
So what he is basically saying is that his own job is meaningless.
And what the fuck at the Hurricane Sandy remark. What a fucking asshole. Show me one poster who at anytime indicated that this issue is even remotely as important as a natural disaster.
There are a lot of people around GAF that give reviewers shit when the new hotness isn't rated 10 out of 10. I remember people flipping their shit when Eurogamer gave U3 an 8/10, but I think a year removed, many Gaffers would agree with what was criticized about the game.
joeygreco1985
Member
This is fucking infuriating
Delusibeta
Banned
Meanwhile, Nintendo Gamer sells out to A. G. Barr PLC.
(He is right in Mountain Dew being gut-rot, however. Also I never knew Barr distributes Orangina and Rockstar in the UK)
(He is right in Mountain Dew being gut-rot, however. Also I never knew Barr distributes Orangina and Rockstar in the UK)
Oh, Frankie... *laugh track* ... That cancerous growth in your pants from her is not cancer. *laugh track*
Edit: Also since you're reading this thread: You happen to have any inside stories you can share about the process for OXM since you were there when it launched?
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