DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
So am I, but that's not what the picture is saying and you know it.
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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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So am I, but that's not what the picture is saying and you know it.
Ugh. It's so frustrating. The reason I think cuts are a bad idea is because I think government safety nets are necessary for a truly developed country. But I don't see how you can think that and then still think forming a angry mob and going after the wrong people is a good idea.
Despite what I think about UKIP as a party, Douglas Carswell seems like a genuinely good person.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It just seems remarkably pointless to do this. If someone didn't already believe those things about Carswell, this won't have persuaded them. Even if they did already believe those things, that doesn't necessarily mean they think he deserves that kind of treatment, so it still won't have persuaded them. It certainly won't have dissuaded Carswell about his own beliefs. The only result it has is to reinforce the opinions of contrary sides about each as right and the other as wrong. I know a fair few students who do (somewhat) more moderate versions of this, and every time I just find myself asking what on earth the point is.
Carswell is actually a decent guy as well. Actively campaigning against some of the more lunatic tendancies of his party.
Any Questions
Member
Thank-you for the thread. Love politics and will aim to keep up with progress and contribute.
Happy to say that I am centre right with my politics and am glad we have a majority government.
I hope that the conservatives don't let us down.
The debate to consider I feel is the obvious Europe question.
I consider that staying in is for the best and am looking forward to the upcoming debate. Hopefully the scare tactics won't cloud things. Will see.
Happy to say that I am centre right with my politics and am glad we have a majority government.
I hope that the conservatives don't let us down.
The debate to consider I feel is the obvious Europe question.
I consider that staying in is for the best and am looking forward to the upcoming debate. Hopefully the scare tactics won't cloud things. Will see.
anonymous_abc
Member
While I don't agree with their chanting. And I am sure Carswell is on the libertarian and not racist spectrum of UKIP.
He is nevertheless the MP of a party with lots of questionable policies and more than a handful of literal racists amongst their ranks. He can hardly be surprised by the reaction he should have known what he was getting into when he jumped ship.
He is nevertheless the MP of a party with lots of questionable policies and more than a handful of literal racists amongst their ranks. He can hardly be surprised by the reaction he should have known what he was getting into when he jumped ship.
If its anything like the old politics thread, exactly the opposite. Our right leaning posters are much more active in posting than the left wingers for the normal thread.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?
..because I got enough of that at RllMuk forums where the intolerant, fascist hatred of such people with differing views is quickly pounced upon with snotty, condescending replies.
If you don't actually want your views to be challenged and debated then I'm sure there are plenty of right wing echo-chambers out there where you can post instead.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
There's a place for peaceful protest but it looks like what happened here looks to have crossed the line. Can't speak for Carswell, certainly don't like his party but at the same time he's an MP....we kinda need them to be 1. working, and 2. under scrutiny right now, especially in a house that's this tight votes wise.
If you're going to be throwing around the abuse, though, throw it at the minister (and shadow minister for balance) in charge of whatever you're upset about, not just a random member of the opposition.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Well...."active in posting" isn't necesarily the same as "shouting down contrary views". I feel that the election thread went a bit the way of the latter in the week following the election result, but I put that down to shock and frayed nerves rather than Neogaf being a left-wing echo chamber or whatever.
If this thread is anything like the previous UK poligaf then it'll probably be reasonably balanced and quite a pleasant place to post from either side.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I have genuinely never used the Subscribe button in my life. I don't even know where it is.
RobotNinjaHornets
Banned
Sir_Crocodile
Member
I never bother with subs, I just rely on the firefox awesome bar and post history
PJV3
Member
The Left control everything.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Pretty much.
yeah. carswell is too good for UKIP and quite honestly a big fish in a small pond. would not be surprised if he goes independent eventually.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Not at all. We're still in the post-election settling-down phase, but it tends to be a pretty sensible tolerant bunch that posts here. Or at least, if someone seems intolerant it is probably not what it looks like - like on the rare occasion people gang up on zomgbbqftw; it's not that he's right-wing, but that he is just irritatingly right a lot of the time that he deserves a bit of gentle ribbing the odd time he fouls up.
Kotetsu534
Member
Think Simon Jenkins and Martin Kettle have it about right on the new government. First Simon:
He takes a look at some policies:
- Extending the NHS to 7 days (likely to face heavy opposition from the BMA, costly).
- Selling off social housing on the cheap. (Costly.)
- Doubling free childcare entitlement to 30 hours per week. (Costly.)
- Unconditional powers for Scotland and HS2. (Probably costly.)
- Let Whitehall take control of housing land across the land, dictating disposals and transfers. (Centralism, probably costly.)
- Continued centralisation of education, as all new primaries and secondaries, and those deemed failing, are brought under de facto control of the Secretary of State (even if subcontrated to a "free" provider). (Centralism, probably costly.)
- He suspects the move to bring social services in line with the NHS will end up taking it out of local authority control too, but this isn't clear.
All of this is going to make life difficult for Osborne's goal of getting rid of the deficit during this Parliament. Very interested to see what his new budget holds.
As for Martin Kettle, he pointed out here that the 4 things of importance to the government's legacy in the Queen's Speech were Europe, devolution, tax and spending, and childcare (which will be very popular with key voters). Even if changes to trade union political funding rules, strike ballots and yet more invasive communications data powers anger some people deeply, they won't matter much in the end.
He takes a look at some policies:
- Extending the NHS to 7 days (likely to face heavy opposition from the BMA, costly).
- Selling off social housing on the cheap. (Costly.)
- Doubling free childcare entitlement to 30 hours per week. (Costly.)
- Unconditional powers for Scotland and HS2. (Probably costly.)
- Let Whitehall take control of housing land across the land, dictating disposals and transfers. (Centralism, probably costly.)
- Continued centralisation of education, as all new primaries and secondaries, and those deemed failing, are brought under de facto control of the Secretary of State (even if subcontrated to a "free" provider). (Centralism, probably costly.)
- He suspects the move to bring social services in line with the NHS will end up taking it out of local authority control too, but this isn't clear.
All of this is going to make life difficult for Osborne's goal of getting rid of the deficit during this Parliament. Very interested to see what his new budget holds.
As for Martin Kettle, he pointed out here that the 4 things of importance to the government's legacy in the Queen's Speech were Europe, devolution, tax and spending, and childcare (which will be very popular with key voters). Even if changes to trade union political funding rules, strike ballots and yet more invasive communications data powers anger some people deeply, they won't matter much in the end.
Wrestlemania
Banned
I don't understand this bit at all. Not only is he not good at saying so, he's seemingly been ineffective at acting on it also.
31GhostsIV
Banned
Oh, I agree. That's my point, really - if the Tories wanted equal votes, they would want to ditch FPTP, not be eager to mess with boundary lines. Is the reducing the number of MPs also an independent thing?
Moving social services out of LA control and into the NHS is absolutely the right thing to do. Social services costs are way too high for local government to bear - that's why 75% of local government funding now comes from central government rather than your council tax and local rates.
Take social services out of LA control, reduce the budgets, and you instantly grant a huge amount more localism to areas - because council tax is (once again) the majority of funding for a council.
Take social services out of LA control, reduce the budgets, and you instantly grant a huge amount more localism to areas - because council tax is (once again) the majority of funding for a council.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, reducing the number of MPs is a political decision, although how the boundaries would get redrawn as a result of MP reductions is not. I suspect Cameron will be rather less keen to reduce the number of MPs than he once was, because it would now favour Labour.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Most on the left don't seem to realise just how much a tiny majority of 12 will constrain Cameron and Osborne.
All the hysteria of Tory Armageddon on the poor will not happen because of it, also you have to look at the make up of the backbenchers of the Tory party in 2015, it's not the silver spoon brigade of Thatchers time, many of them come from normal working backgrounds who have done well for themselves.
These days you will find just as many 'privileged' MP's on the Labour benches as you will on the Conservatives.
..although having said that, Jacob Rees Mogg should keep his mouth shut as much as possible, because if anything reinforces the stereotype of the typical Tory MP from the shires, it's him.
All the hysteria of Tory Armageddon on the poor will not happen because of it, also you have to look at the make up of the backbenchers of the Tory party in 2015, it's not the silver spoon brigade of Thatchers time, many of them come from normal working backgrounds who have done well for themselves.
These days you will find just as many 'privileged' MP's on the Labour benches as you will on the Conservatives.
..although having said that, Jacob Rees Mogg should keep his mouth shut as much as possible, because if anything reinforces the stereotype of the typical Tory MP from the shires, it's him.
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Deleted member 231381
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Works both ways, though. The 12 nutters are just as likely to rock the boat as the 12 moderates; if not more so.
Black Republican
Member
nice new thread, should be an interesting couple of months ahead
31GhostsIV
Banned
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know about 2015, but in 2010, there were 25 MPs who had a background in manual labour before joining politics; 22 were Labour, 2 Conservative, and 1 Liberal Democrat. Just over 9% of the Labour Party had a background in manual labour, less than 1% of the Conservative Party, and just over 2% of the Liberal Democrats.
See: http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01528/SN01528.pdf
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
But it only takes 6 Tory MPS to vote against the government for its policies to be blocked, David Davies is waiting with his bloc of MP's to put the boot in.
12 really isn't enough to be a radical administration.
Is this just going to be a place for the left wing to gather and shout down anyone that dares to disagree with them?
..because I got enough of that at RllMuk forums where the intolerant, fascist hatred of such people with differing views is quickly pounced upon with snotty, condescending replies.
Stop playing the persecution card and make a cogent argument.
It would probably take a few more than than given DUP/UU voting inclinations. They're unlikely to vote against the gov on most things. At most abstain.
As we've seen though they have already long grassed the ECHR stuff due to not being able to get it through.
31GhostsIV
Banned
Thanks Crab
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
As a rather depressing piece of context, in Oct 1974, just over 40% of Labour's MPs came from manual labour backgrounds. The party got taken over by solictors, barristers, and professional politicians. Still more working class than the others, but by a barely appreciable margin.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
While this is obviously a tiny number, surely the percentage of the population actually involved in some sort of manual labour is at an all-time low, especially when you consider the presence of non-UK citizens in areas such as agriculture, transporting goods etc.
anonymous_abc
Member
It's not really surprising.
It starts on the local level.
Who has time to invest into local politics. Who can easily take an afternoon off to do whatever?
In Germany it is often teachers and other state employees who get very flexible time arrangements, especially if it is for political work.
Also self-employed who can juggle their time more flexibly.
Dependent workers who have a regular 9-5 or maybe even shift work won't get off so easily unless their employers are very supportive.
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You'd be surprised. About 17.2% of the UK's population works in manual labour. The reason you expect less is because they're the group with the least profile in our media and politics. If Labour was perfectly representative of the country, you'd expect them to have 17.2%. Given that they're actually (supposedly) a working class party, you'd actually expect them to have a *higher* proportion than the country as a whole, so well above 17.2%.
The Scotland Bill has been published. Unsurprisingly, the SNP have instantly attacked it as not going far enough. Seems they're complaining about UK Government vetoes on eight areas, including benefit changes.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Guess they should call a referendum then....they really are a bunch of grievance seeking piss & wind merchants.
FlammableD
Banned
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I think comments like this are probably the reason people make condescending remarks, rather than your political beliefs.
anonymous_abc
Member
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
No really, if your sense of injustice is so great, get on with it and call another referendum, after all Nicola Sturgeon is having to accept policies from a government that lacks 'legitimacy' in her words.
If she is as principled as she likes to make out, such a state of affairs is an affront to Scotland and a referendum should have already been called.
Instead of boring the rest of the country with your imagined grievances, just get on with it.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Wait, calling out a political party is now grounds for personal attacks..
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Posting this thread in off topic rather then community seems to have lowered the general tone. :/
Well they were elected on a manifesto of getting what they believe to be the best deal for Scotland. So if they believe they can get more then it is their duty to their electorate to try to do so.
This is in much the same way that I would expect my MP to try and obtain the best deal for my constituency.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Which they believe the best way of achieving is by leaving the UK, so what are they waiting for?
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Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I think people are allowed to want more than one thing. The SNP probably most want to leave Scotland, but, if that can't be acheived because there isn't sufficient support for it, they'd then still prefer a highly autonomous Scotland to a less autonomous Scotland. This was one of the things which they were (overwhelmingly) elected on the basis of and thus have a great deal of support for, so calling them out on this just makes you look a little silly.
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