I don't excuse it. He truly is shit.
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Gotham S3 |OT| Not Filming In Vancouver - Mondays 8/7c
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
- Status
Poodlestrike
Banned
So after giving up on Gotham after reaching the penultimate episode of the show's first season, I recently jumped back into the show upon the encouragement of some people here on the forum who assured me the second season was a significant step-up in quality. As such, I finally got around to finishing the first season before binge-watching the entire second season over the last few days.
This show man, it really frustrates me. There are so many really fun things about it, but at the same time the writing is just so schizophrenic tonally and suffers from so much clunky characterisation and plotting. Whenever I feel like giving up on the show, it'll throw in a couple of really fun and largely well-put together episodes to keep me hooked before quickly reverting back to it's old ways. I think mostly, I've managed to make it this far because I know this show has so much potential to be a legitimately great show, as opposed to a sloppy, meandering mess that audiences would have abandoned a few episodes into it's first season if it wasn't based on a beloved franchise. In a way, it's actually really unfair to all those really great, original television shows out there that never got greenlit for a second season just because they could never get that kind of audience right off the bat.
As a die-hard Batman fan, there are a lot of things I really like about the show. It absolutely nails the visual asthetic of Gotham City, with a lot of really impressive looking sets and scenery that totally encapsulate the darkly gothic of Batman's world. For the most part, the casting is also largely fantastic: Donal Logue, Robin Lord Taylor, David Mazouz as Baby Bruce, even Ben McKenzie, whilst not the most charismatic actor in the world, delivers a really solid turn as Gordon. The acting for the most part really works, and the actors themselves really seem to be having fun in their roles. In addition, a lot of the original music is really lovely and the majority of the special effects work is largely top notch.
But at the same time, this show just has such a piss-poor understanding of the positive wealth of source material it's trying to play around with, in addition to any kind of fundamental understanding of the characters their trying to adapt from the Batman mythos. My criticism doesn't stem from the show deviating from the Batman canon (for instance, I really enjoy this show's take on Bruce and Selina as childhood friends from the off-set as opposed to only meeting as adults like in the comics). I'm mostly frustrated on account of the fact that the writers don't really seem to understand what makes characters like James Gordon, Alfred Pennyworth and Edward Nygma work the way the do, or what makes them special. Instead of being a rare cop of principal working within a corrupt and rotting justice system like in the comics, Gordon from the show is depicted as "the one bad egg" in the prescient, who beats suspects and murders people before nervously trying to cover up his actions. Likewise Renee Montoya, a hard-working police detective who just so happens to be gay in the comics, is depicted in the show only as LESBIAN WOMAN...turning up in the show just long enough to fuck Barbara before roundly fucking off only never to be seen again. It's as if a producer for the show just so happened to pick up a copy of Gotham Central only to spot Renee kissing a woman in one of the panels, before going "Shit, that's exactly what we need in our show! A bit of lesbian action!" before ordering one of the writers to write her into the season. Same thing with Sara Essen. In the comics, she was a complicated, troubled young detective who engaged in a romantic relationship with Jim. In the show, she's adapted into a commissioner who barely says a word before quickly getting killed off before the writers can give her anything interesting to do. It's just such a waste.
And as for Alfred....
...the dude is just a cockney thug who's nothing more than an outdated Dick Van Dyke impression, only much more sweary and threatening, more than willing to engage in murder and violence as long as it's a means to an end. I'm all up for reinterpreting these characters from the comics, but they're all just such shitty and thoroughly uninspired directions to take them in.
And now we have Gotham simplifying some of the most psychologically nuanced and engaging super-villains in comic book history into base, underwritten clichés who limp into the story for torturous cameos before quickly limping off. Instead of falling into crime on account of their own personal mistakes or psychological compulsions, half of Gotham's criminals are now only superv-illains because Hugo Strange told them so, Clayface being just the latest example. Instead of a tortured, once classically handsome film actor desperately searching for a cure for his condition, Clayface is now just some henchman called Basil who is offhandedly introduced halfway through an episode, pretends to be Gordon for five minutes before then disappearing into thin air. It's just so frustrating. The show has such a wealth of engaging characters and interesting storylines to play around with, but instead it satisfies itself by re-interpreting them in the most lazy and uninteresting fashion imaginable.
On account of slightly more focused plotting in comparison to the first season, Season 2 was basically a baby-step up from the first. But I'll keep watching. Unlike seemingly most people currently watching the show, I liked the introduction of Barnes,who at least provides some momentum to the GCPD storylines, and I continue to enjoy the antics of Riddler and Penguin, not to mention Bullock's continuing world-weary shtick. I just hope Season 3 will show more obvious signs of improvement down the line.
EDIT: Holy wall of text, Batman!
This show man, it really frustrates me. There are so many really fun things about it, but at the same time the writing is just so schizophrenic tonally and suffers from so much clunky characterisation and plotting. Whenever I feel like giving up on the show, it'll throw in a couple of really fun and largely well-put together episodes to keep me hooked before quickly reverting back to it's old ways. I think mostly, I've managed to make it this far because I know this show has so much potential to be a legitimately great show, as opposed to a sloppy, meandering mess that audiences would have abandoned a few episodes into it's first season if it wasn't based on a beloved franchise. In a way, it's actually really unfair to all those really great, original television shows out there that never got greenlit for a second season just because they could never get that kind of audience right off the bat.
As a die-hard Batman fan, there are a lot of things I really like about the show. It absolutely nails the visual asthetic of Gotham City, with a lot of really impressive looking sets and scenery that totally encapsulate the darkly gothic of Batman's world. For the most part, the casting is also largely fantastic: Donal Logue, Robin Lord Taylor, David Mazouz as Baby Bruce, even Ben McKenzie, whilst not the most charismatic actor in the world, delivers a really solid turn as Gordon. The acting for the most part really works, and the actors themselves really seem to be having fun in their roles. In addition, a lot of the original music is really lovely and the majority of the special effects work is largely top notch.
But at the same time, this show just has such a piss-poor understanding of the positive wealth of source material it's trying to play around with, in addition to any kind of fundamental understanding of the characters their trying to adapt from the Batman mythos. My criticism doesn't stem from the show deviating from the Batman canon (for instance, I really enjoy this show's take on Bruce and Selina as childhood friends from the off-set as opposed to only meeting as adults like in the comics). I'm mostly frustrated on account of the fact that the writers don't really seem to understand what makes characters like James Gordon, Alfred Pennyworth and Edward Nygma work the way the do, or what makes them special. Instead of being a rare cop of principal working within a corrupt and rotting justice system like in the comics, Gordon from the show is depicted as "the one bad egg" in the prescient, who beats suspects and murders people before nervously trying to cover up his actions. Likewise Renee Montoya, a hard-working police detective who just so happens to be gay in the comics, is depicted in the show only as LESBIAN WOMAN...turning up in the show just long enough to fuck Barbara before roundly fucking off only never to be seen again. It's as if a producer for the show just so happened to pick up a copy of Gotham Central only to spot Renee kissing a woman in one of the panels, before going "Shit, that's exactly what we need in our show! A bit of lesbian action!" before ordering one of the writers to write her into the season. Same thing with Sara Essen. In the comics, she was a complicated, troubled young detective who engaged in a romantic relationship with Jim. In the show, she's adapted into a commissioner who barely says a word before quickly getting killed off before the writers can give her anything interesting to do. It's just such a waste.
And as for Alfred....
...the dude is just a cockney thug who's nothing more than an outdated Dick Van Dyke impression, only much more sweary and threatening, more than willing to engage in murder and violence as long as it's a means to an end. I'm all up for reinterpreting these characters from the comics, but they're all just such shitty and thoroughly uninspired directions to take them in.
And now we have Gotham simplifying some of the most psychologically nuanced and engaging super-villains in comic book history into base, underwritten clichés who limp into the story for torturous cameos before quickly limping off. Instead of falling into crime on account of their own personal mistakes or psychological compulsions, half of Gotham's criminals are now only superv-illains because Hugo Strange told them so, Clayface being just the latest example. Instead of a tortured, once classically handsome film actor desperately searching for a cure for his condition, Clayface is now just some henchman called Basil who is offhandedly introduced halfway through an episode, pretends to be Gordon for five minutes before then disappearing into thin air. It's just so frustrating. The show has such a wealth of engaging characters and interesting storylines to play around with, but instead it satisfies itself by re-interpreting them in the most lazy and uninteresting fashion imaginable.
On account of slightly more focused plotting in comparison to the first season, Season 2 was basically a baby-step up from the first. But I'll keep watching. Unlike seemingly most people currently watching the show, I liked the introduction of Barnes,who at least provides some momentum to the GCPD storylines, and I continue to enjoy the antics of Riddler and Penguin, not to mention Bullock's continuing world-weary shtick. I just hope Season 3 will show more obvious signs of improvement down the line.
EDIT: Holy wall of text, Batman!
Poodlestrike
Banned
TBH, I have to disagree with what seems to be the root of your criticisms, namely, that they're deviating from and somehow wasting the source material. I love the comics, don't get me wrong, but there's so many continuities, so many interpretations and sources, I can't get at all worked up about adaptations varying. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time in the comics. I know you say you're not bothered by the deviations, but then you go on to criticize the show for deviating and "not getting what makes the characters work," so idk.
Like I said, reinterpreting the characters as they're depicted in the comics or deviating from the source material is A-Okay with me, my criticism largely revolves around the sheer laziness and utter lack of nuance or human interest in those interpretations across the board. Changing things is utterly fine, and likewise something of inevitability when it comes to adapting a comic book world for television, I just don't think the vast majority of those changes work.
I mean, did Gotham's version of Renee Montoya work for you as a whole? Did it's version of Clayface? Not challenging you, I'm just really curious to hear your perspective.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Montoya, not so much. But then, the character was really poorly handled even if we accept her as an original character with a similar name. Clayface, though, I was 100% on board with. Setting aside the budget limitations involved with creating a giant CG mudman, I loved the bizarre and erratic performance we got out if it.
I'd cite Nygma as an example. He's entirely different from his comic version at first, but then develops in really interesting and compelling ways into something that's still not the Riddler, but is a ton of fun.
I don't see how Gotham's Alfred is uninspired. If anything, Gotham's version of Alfred is probably one of the most inspired things that the show has ever done.
In Gotham, I can totally believe that Bruce Wayne would grow up to become a vigilante who dresses like a Bat under Sean Pertwee's Alfred. Gotham's Alfred seems like someone who had a rough childhood with a dark military past. So it makes perfect sense that an unhinged butler would mentor and train a young kid to become a crime fighter and the world's greatest detective. I don't see a huge problem with Alfred hitting Selina in that gif. She murdered someone from Alfred's past. Alfred also worried about Selina's safety toward the end of Season 2. He yelled at Bruce for putting her in danger.
It's difficult to see Bruce Wayne becoming Batman under Chris Nolan's Alfred or Tim Burton's Alfred. Those Alfreds act way too mild-mannered and calm to be the butlers of a guy who fights crime while dressed like a bat. Alfred would have to be a little fucked up in the head (like Gotham's Alfred) to be perfectly okay with Bruce Wayne's bizarre behavior.
Stallion Dan
Member
...rest of post about differences to canon.
Good.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Gotham's Alfred reminds me really strongly of Batman: Earth One's Alfred, though that one is scruffier-looking than Pertwee. I agree with Odduck, it makes a lot more sense for Bruce to grow up into Batman when his role model father figure is someone like Gotham's Alfred, who solves problems mostly with brute force and isn't really clear on what he's doing.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Yeah, this Alfred is way more of an enabler than any of them in live action or even animation were before, it works.
I would definitely agree with some of those criticisms. I would have much preferred they kept Renee Montoya out of Gotham if they were going to write her how they did. She's a GREAT character in the comics, and that was the definition of wasted in the show.
And, in bigger part, I agree that in making the super-villains simply byproducts of Hugo Strange's maniacal experiments, we lose what made a lot of these villains sympathetic: their origin. That's one of my single biggest problems with the show. I do NOT like they way they handled these Hugo Strange villains. I also agree that the tone can be messed up sometimes. Typically I enjoy it, but occasional things, like Butch shooting a bazooka at Azrael, is just too SILLY for me. They sometimes throw those things in that are too much, IMO.
However, I think Alfred here is great. He's a stern but loving military man who wants what's best for Bruce. Very Earth-One style. I also just really enjoy the show for the most part and think it's shot beautifully.
And, in bigger part, I agree that in making the super-villains simply byproducts of Hugo Strange's maniacal experiments, we lose what made a lot of these villains sympathetic: their origin. That's one of my single biggest problems with the show. I do NOT like they way they handled these Hugo Strange villains. I also agree that the tone can be messed up sometimes. Typically I enjoy it, but occasional things, like Butch shooting a bazooka at Azrael, is just too SILLY for me. They sometimes throw those things in that are too much, IMO.
However, I think Alfred here is great. He's a stern but loving military man who wants what's best for Bruce. Very Earth-One style. I also just really enjoy the show for the most part and think it's shot beautifully.
Stallion Dan
Member
Aside from Azrael and Clayface, the other villains had their own origins.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I thought this was one of the stupidest ideas for a series. Then I watched it and loved it (nearly at the end of Series 2). The characters, even Bruce, are great. Particularly love Alfred. So likable.
They do seem slightly eager to blow their load (certain decisions with characters), but for the most part it's one of the strongest non-Netflix comic book series.
They do seem slightly eager to blow their load (certain decisions with characters), but for the most part it's one of the strongest non-Netflix comic book series.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
I would take a half season of that before Bruce decides it isn't enough and leaves Gotham to travel.
That same season i'd die for them to introduce Andrea
Im not against actually showing Bruce's travel and training like some people seem to be.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
That name, LOL.
OddOne is back with the previws.
Let me be clear here. My criticisms of the character work on the show doesn't stem from the fact that the show is daring to reinterpret these characters. My criticisms are directed towards how sloppy the interpretations are and how they reject many of the core and identifiable characteristics of these comic book characters so that they're basically recognizable, trading in nuance for bland, formulaic characterization.
Different certainly isn't bad when it comes to writers developing a new take on these characters. To throw out an example, Heath Ledger's much grittier take on The Joker is completely different to the much more flamboyant character from the comic books, but re-interpretation still works because it's nuanced and engaging, whilst still preserving some of the more recognizable elements of the character. Same with the much harsher, more working class version of Alfred in Earth One. who although couldn't be more different to upper-class gentlemen that was Alfred of the comics, both in terms of physicality and temperament. But again, that interpretation works because there's something still fundamentally recognizable, something fundamentally Alfred in that reinterpretation, even if it's just a glimmer. If you're going to be reinterpret Renee Montoya in such a way that the only thing you remember about her that she was a lesbian, then you've utterly failed at adapting the character. It's just reductionist and uninteresting.
Eschewing the comic book canon in favour of delivering fresh takes on these characters is absolutely fine, and like I said, an inevitability when it comes to adapting for television. My frustrations from the show merely revolve around each of these reinterpretations falling absolutely flat for me and how often they seem to be mishandled, not because their different but because their poorly written and utterly inconsistent.
Again, The Clayface presented in the season 2 finale kind of represents the whole problem for me. In many Batman continuities, Basil Karlo was a once-famous film actor, who's ego eventually leads to his own un-doing, with his increasingly obsession with re-living the glories of his now stagnant acting career eventually leading him to become the villain known as Clayface. In most continuities, Clayface has a rich, tragic backstory telling the tale of a man who gradually sheds his own humanity. It's interesting stuff.
In Gotham, Basil is some dude, who becomes Clayface because....because Hugo Strange told him to. The end.
I don't dislike that reinterpretation of the character because it's different. I dislike it because it's bland, uninteresting and utterly unrecognizable from a character who's been reinterpreted so successfully so many other times. That's all.
Anyway, that's all I'm going to say. I don't want to drag this thread down. Like I said, I'm going to stick with the show and look forward to future Bullock action.
Gotham producer Ken Woodruff talks about the Mad Hatter and how he plays into the first half of Season 3.
Woodruff believes the biggest problem with doing a full-fledged superhero show is a lack of money to create impressive action sequences and amazing special effects. Also, network television is still obsessed with 22-episode seasons, which spreads their special effects budget very thin, and makes it challenging to meet post-production deadlines. (Compare this to Netflix, which only does 13 episode seasons for Marvel shows.)
Woodruff believes the biggest problem with doing a full-fledged superhero show is a lack of money to create impressive action sequences and amazing special effects. Also, network television is still obsessed with 22-episode seasons, which spreads their special effects budget very thin, and makes it challenging to meet post-production deadlines. (Compare this to Netflix, which only does 13 episode seasons for Marvel shows.)
Razgriz-Specter
Member
I disagree with him,
Arrow pretty much shows you could do a legitimate Batman show for decent amount cheaper than Gotham.
The only legitimate problem with that show is horrendous writers lately and a need for ships because CW.
The only thing I think they'd need help with is a Batmobile and im sure WB would be fine lending 1 of theirs for a day or two a season to film with it.
psynergylover
Member
it's almost time!!!
DangerMouse
Member
Woooo! Been waiting for this since the season finale!
psynergylover
Member
Jim and Lee done in the first 1 min.....lol
Nah. He got stabbed pretty good by Galavant-Azrael, but he survived it.
Spectromixer
Member
So they did a six month jump?
Freddy=Legend
Member
Fox working at the GCPD is nice way to keep him around. Enjoyed him last season.
DangerMouse
Member
LOL Bullock
Freddy=Legend
Member
Wait, shouldn't they be arresting Penguin? They've gotta have something on him, right? Haha
DangerMouse
Member
Penguin with that strike.
Edit: Oh yeah, free rain in GCPD lol.
LOL that look on Jim's face as Penguin came over. Priceless.
Edit: Oh yeah, free rain in GCPD lol.
LOL that look on Jim's face as Penguin came over. Priceless.
psynergylover
Member
tabitha....hnnnnnng!!!!!
BrokenFiction
Member
Barbara does crazy eyes sooooo well.
Spectromixer
Member
ivy still young for now lol
DangerMouse
Member
Hahaha, Selina consoling Butch.
And stealing his wallet
And stealing his wallet
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