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Golden_Pigeon
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(07-16-2017, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Funyarinpa

Any double standard related to other countries has nothing to do with my question. "But what about Egypt?????" deflects from the discussion at hand.

What The Economist's Democracy Index is not telling you about is the Islamist rhetoric and attempts at bigoted legislation that's plagued this country since 2013 or thereabouts. An opposition media still exists, but long-running opposition newspapers and magazines HAVE been shut down by a surge of legal cases brought up against them, had their executives investigated of links to the organization of the coup, or in Zaman's case, literally invaded and seized by men under Erdoğan's command.

Muslim rhetoric or conservative politics is not against democracy. You also failed to recall that a senior AKP member talked about changing the secular aspect of the constitution, and Erdogan publicly denounced him and affirm his faith in secularism. I don't understand how you can be islamist and wanting to maintain the secular character of the constitution in the same time:

Parliament Speaker Ismail Kahraman unexpectedly sparked controversy in Turkey when on April 25 he declared that Turkey’s new constitution should forgo mention of “secularism” and instead be a “religious constitution” referencing God. His words reignited Turkey’s always tense “secularism debate,” which has been amplified since 2002 when the Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power. Kahraman's remarks led to protests in a number of cities, a call by the main opposition leader for him to resign and allegations by secular pundits that the Speaker had shown the AKP’s “true face,” its “real intentions.” Because Kahraman is a known confidant of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, many also suspected that his statement was part of a scheme being orchestrated by Turkey's leader.

Erdogan is willing to not abolish Turkey’s constitutional secularism, as some fear, but rather to use religion in the most effective way.

In the next two days, however, the major figures in the AKP disowned Kahraman’s position on a “religious constitution.” The AKP’s Mustafa Sentop, chairman of parliament's constitutional commission, said that Kahraman’s view was not a “party stance” and that “secularism is preserved in our constitutional draft.” Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu asserted, “In the new constitution that we are preparing, the principle of secularism will be included.” He added that it would be a “liberal interpretation” of secularism, not an “authoritarian” version. In also addressing the controversy, Erdogan not only professed support for secularism, but even offered an inspired defense of the principle.

Defining secularism as the state's “obligation to stay at an equal distance to different faith groups,” he explained why it is a good idea: “If the faith of all religious groups in this country is guaranteed in the constitution, and the state’s equal distance to all religious groups is a foundation, why do you need to emphasize Islam? If I can live my faith as a Muslim the way I want to, the issue is over. If a Christian can live his/her Christianity, if a Jew can live his/her Jewishness or an atheist can live his/her atheism, the issue is also over for them.”




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The fact that you equate the prayer organized to commemorate the failed coup as "are we doing jihad?" tell a lot about the two Turkey who don't want to live together, and don't know each other.

Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down. Honestly i don't know if Gulenist are behind the failed coup, but his group was certainly REALLY late to condemn the coup attempt. US condemn it first, and they were pretty late themselves. I mean, Gulenist were the first suspect, why they waited that the coup failed completely (late in the night) to condemn it ?

The other attacks against freedom of press are well known and i acknowledge them. However, it doesn't make Turkey a dictatorship. You can go in the street and buy one of the most popular news outlet and you'll find heavily anti-Erdogan/AKP rhetorics. You can put on the TV and you'll find the same thing. You can vote for the next election and Erdogan is gone.
Last edited by Golden_Pigeon; 07-16-2017 at 11:09 PM.