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Funyarinpa
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(07-17-2017, 01:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

Muslim rhetoric or conservative politics is not against democracy. You also failed to recall that a senior AKP member talked about changing the secular aspect of the constitution, and Erdogan publicly denounced him and affirm his faith in secularism. I don't understand how you can be islamist and wanting to maintain the secular character of the constitution in the same time:

You can be an Islamist by deliberately tying religion into your country's politics. Throwing a party member under the bus for being more overtly Islamist than you are doesn't mean you'd immediately become perfectly secular. Does invoking Islam as a central point of your political stance sound secular to you? Does making bigoted and judgmental statements on subjects like abortion and tying them to religion point, in any way, that Erdoğan is a person to be trusted with the presidency of any country? Can a President who permits the dismissal of evolution from high school curricula on the basis of "it's arguable and too complex" really ensure his country effectively implements secularism? Is a President who FORCIBLY BROADCASTS a political message through private communication channels AND mentions Allah in that message the sort of person that should rule a democratic and secular country?

I know your answer though. You still trust Erdoğan's words more than his actions, so you'll just say that the lack of a motion to turn the country officially into an Islamic Theocracy means Erdoğan is totally, certainly, 100% secular. Since I can still go out and buy one of the few standing opposition newspapers or magazines, the country's democratic legitimacy is not affected AT ALL and it's just as if jailed journalists and the overt crackdown on political dissidence don't matter in the slightest!

But you know what? Gloat over the semantics all you want. Regardless of how "secular" he is, a conservative, bigoted Muslim asshole like Erdoğan is unfit to rule a constitutionally secular country.

The fact that you equate the prayer organized to commemorate the failed coup as "are we doing jihad?" tell a lot about the two Turkey who don't want to live together, and don't know each other.

Zaman is a newspaper controlled by Gulen so it's pretty normal that they were shut down. Honestly i don't know if Gulenist are behind the failed coup, but his group was certainly REALLY late to condemn the coup attempt. US condemn it first, and they were pretty late themselves. I mean, Gulenist were the first suspect, why they waited that the coup failed completely (late in the night) to condemn it ?

The other attacks against freedom of press are well known and i acknowledge them. However, it doesn't make Turkey a dictatorship. You can go in the street and buy one of the most popular news outlet and you'll find heavily anti-Erdogan/AKP rhetorics. You can put on the TV and you'll find the same thing. You can vote for the next election and Erdogan is gone.

1. Sarcasm, Irony and Exeggerations 101. I of fucking course know that the call to prayer doesn't imply jihad. What I mean the was that Islam was being brought into politics, and Islam itself was being influenced by political motives as well. But feel free to continue talking about "both siiides are igggnorannntttt waah wah".

2. Waiting on the proof that Zaman is a Gülen-run newspaper. Don't use a Turkish news source.

3. Skipping the speculation on the coup's culprit.

4. Hoo boy, it's the "you have democratic elections so you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE JEOPARDIZATION OF DEMOCRACY WHATSOEVER!" argument once again.
Come again when suspicious power cuts during election day are no longer literally blamed on cats.
Come again when the opposition viewpoints are given an equal time of day as Erdoğan's viewpoint in any election or referendum campaign.
Come again when there are no more reports of blatant election fraud (in one case even holding people at gunpoint) and never to meet repercussions, always committed by Erdoğan supporters.
Come again when not every single action of political dissidence like the Justice March is called "supporting terrorism".
Come again when we haven't just had the first anniversary of Turkey's state of emergency that lets Erdoğan go wild with purges and bills as he pleases.

Turkey can still breathe and wave for help but that doesn't mean Erdoğan isn't dragging us down under to drown us, and we have gulped down enough of the seawater of ignorance already.