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Golden_Pigeon
Banned
(07-17-2017, 02:57 AM)
You're saying that that kind of stuff cannot occur in a democratic/secular country, i'm pointing out that it does and it don't change the secular/democratic character of those country. Your statement just call for comparison. And also you cannot have your own definition of secularism and we should all subscribe to it. Speaking about God or using piety is not against secularism. Secularism is about the power structure, not the people using them.

I would point out the flaws of AKP/Erdogan if i was speaking to a pro-Erdogan audience, as i regularly do. Here on GAF, there is absolutely no need for it.

Political Islam is not different from political christianity. The party of Merkel is called Christian Union. Is this a red flag too ? It's why the term "islamist" don't mean much. You can't put in the same bag Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood or Khomeini. Every ideology is so different that you cannot group them together. There is nothing that point out that Erdogan will one day announce that the Turkish republic is over and now you will be ruled by the Diyanet (state-religious authority).

Patriotism is political, you're right. But i was speaking about partisan politics. It's perfectly fine that every church/mosque/whatever goes out to defend the society against a military coup. Everybody should stand against a military coup to defend an elected civil power. I would do so even to defend somebody of the "other side". To be clear, i rather have a CHP elected government than an AKP in office by a military coup. There is some issue who totally transcend the partisan politics and that call to every citizen, regardless of religious or political affiliation. Erdogan will remain an important figure in the history of modern Turkey for ever, not because of his affilation to AKP but because of the symbol he represent in Turkish history. Another military coup, but this time it failed because of popular opposition (and a part of the military of course).

About your questions:

2. Waiting on the proof that Zaman is a Gülen-run newspaper. Don't use a Turkish news source.

The BBC.


And a complete investigation, but in french.

4. Hoo boy, it's the "you have democratic elections so you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE JEOPARDIZATION OF DEMOCRACY WHATSOEVER!" argument once again.
Come again when suspicious power cuts during election day are no longer literally blamed on cats.
Come again when the opposition viewpoints are given an equal time of day as Erdoğan's viewpoint in any election or referendum campaign.
Come again when there are no more reports of blatant election fraud (in one case even holding people at gunpoint) and never to meet repercussions, always committed by Erdoğan supporters.
Come again when not every single action of political dissidence like the Justice March is called "supporting terrorism".
Come again when we haven't just had the first anniversary of Turkey's state of emergency that lets Erdoğan go wild with purges and bills as he pleases.

You have the right to criticize all those important breach and flaws of Turkish government. You have the absolute right to speak and fight against it. But it does not legitimate a military coup. It's a flawed democracy, not a dictatorship. A military coup will just turn orange into red.