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Funyarinpa
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(07-17-2017, 03:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Golden_Pigeon

You're saying that that kind of stuff cannot occur in a democratic/secular country, i'm pointing out that it does and it don't change the secular/democratic character of those country. Your statement just call for comparison. And also you cannot have your own definition of secularism and we should all subscribe to it. Speaking about God or using piety is not against secularism. Secularism is about the power structure, not the people using them.

I would point out the flaws of AKP/Erdogan if i was speaking to a pro-Erdogan audience, as i regularly does. Here on GAF, there is absolutely no need for it.

Political Islam is not different from political christianity. The party of Merkel is called Christian Union. Is this a red flag too ? It's why the term "islamist" don't mean much. You can't put in the same bag Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhood or Khomeini. Every ideology is so different that you cannot group them together. There is nothing that point out that Erdogan will one day announce that the Turkish republic is over and now you will be ruled by the Diyanet (state-religious authority).

Patriotism is political, you're right. But i was speaking about partisan politics. It's perfectly fine that every church/mosque/whatever goes out to defend the society against a military coup. Everybody should stand against a military coup to defend an elected civil power. I would do so even to defend somebody of the "other side". To be clear, i rather have a CHP elected government than an AKP in office by a military coup.

Again, I know that Turkey is still a technically secular and democratic country. That does NOT mean that Erdoğan cannot pose any danger to these properties of a prospering democracy. Erdoğan CAN do undemocratic and non-secular things, and CAN be unfit to lead a secular country given his deeply religiously bigoted personality. That Turkey is still secular and democratic (to an extent) under Erdoğan doesn't mean we should ignore everything he's done to undermine those two traits of the Turkish Republic.

Religion and religious morality playing into politics is a global problem. I am as opposed to Political Islam as I am to Political Buddhism, Political Christianity, etc. If you find the specific term too vague (and therefore enough to dismiss any concern over Islamist rhetoric hacı a negative influence on the country), then let's go with "the politicization of Islam by Erdoğan in the Turkish Republic", or "TPOIBEITTR" for short. TPOIBEITTR is fucking disgusting because it radicalizes the pious population of the country and prioritizes religion over science and logic, leading to acts like the removal of evolution from school curricula and disproportionate funding to Diyanet, the Ministry of Religious Affairs. Are you done with any issues of semantics in this regard?

Secondly, no, I'd definitely not condone the influence of mosques in politics. Even during a coup, their interference leads to an association between the religion and the state. Even if they WERE used during the coup itself, there's no fucking reason to proceed with a ritual that includes the participation of NINETY THOUSAND MOSQUES. That is obvious politicization of religion, especially when you realize that opinions are split on the celebrations (and so the "defending the integrity of the elected state" excuse doesn't even apply).

Edit: Just going to quote this little bit.

You have the absolute right to speak and fight against it.

No, no I do not.

When peaceful protests are gassed,

When a march for justice (with TWO MILLION PEOPLE, MORE THAN 2% OF THE POPULATION) is denigrated as "supporting terrorism",

When we're the leading country in the amount of journalists we have jailed,

When the President himself has sued more than 1500 people for insulting him,

When a state of emergency lasts a year and causes a purge of 150 000 people,

My rights to speak and to act are not "absolute". My government tries to limit those rights. I am rendered unable to exercise these rights- therefore, they're not absolute rights for me.

If your only basis for me to be against this coup in principle is that it's against a democratic government, then we will have to disagree. Erdogan's democracy is not merely "flawed", it's EXTREMELY corrupt, one-sided, and distorted. I can still vote in elections rife with cheating, I can still participate in protests that will be forcibly dispersed. I can still participate in Turkish online places, with a looming threat of a lawsuit AND a myriad of banned websites like Pastebin or Imgur (not to mention your traffic is obviously monitored on some websites like Wikipedia).

You see, for me, Turkey is not a "flawed" democracy, it's a DYSFUNCTIONAL one.