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VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

MickeyKnox said:
His point is made moot because as a consumer he's voted with his dollar by NOT buying the game he's using as a benchmark for visuals since he doesn't have the hardware to run it.

He's still free to voice his perspective. It's gonna be somewhat annoying if he spamms the Skyrim threads with that kind of comment, but if he doesn't, arguments will only erupt if people picks up the provocation.

Just acknowledge his opinion and ignore it from now on. There's no right or wrong on this issue.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
And I have already acknowledged that it may very well be the reason why Betsheda don't make a bigger effort, but

a) I am a consumer, not a corporate cheerleader

That's just being selfish and ignorant. It's not all about you and your desires. It's about, "Can we do this on 6 year old technology and still make a profit?" Bethesda is a company, ergo a business. And like all business, they aren't going to hang themselves for a small portion of players who can't appreciate the years of work that goes into developing a game as large, open, and free as TES.

Yes, there can always be improvements, but the hardware is limiting the software. You want TES to look super nice? Okay cool. Do us a favor and nag Microsoft and Sony to release new consoles sooner and nag Bethesda to wait next-gen until they release Skyrim. Then come back here and apologize to everyone for forcing the game to be delayed another year or two.

DennisK4 said:
b) I think they are being shortsighted by being so far behind.

Listen, if you are going to keep complaining about how bad Skyrim is, then don't play it and don't keep flooding the threads with your complaining. If you want a game that looks better, but isn't as open a free as TES, then play some BioWare games. And don't take this out of context: I absolutely love BioWare (...well, pre-Dragon Age 2), but the fact is that their games are not as open and free as TES/Fallout3/New Vegas. They may be behind graphically, but that's for a reason: Consoles can't render graphics that high with open games like TES.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
Consoles can't render graphics that high with open games like TES.

I think his argument is that Bethesda should basically approach the PC Skyrim version and the PS360 Skyrim version much like most devs approach the Wii - PS360 dychotomy.

bengraven · Jun 5, 2011

Unicorn said:
That's where the mods come in.

It's really sad that Bethesda has stepped down a bit, knowing that people will mod the game to be what it should be at ship.

They are then able to cut corners, cost, time, and effort, just to make the extra dollar. It then results in threads like these where people quibble about the graphics, when the fact is that Bethesda decided to undershoot, fully knowing the community would pick up the torch, just like Oblivion.

I'm glad the robust mod tools are there, but it shouldn't make the actual dev team hold back what they could potentially do.

That's exactly it. They're trying so hard to become a major mainstream title on the level of Call of Duty or God of War that they're thinking "how can we give them a badass experience while holding the players' hands?"

And then someone in the back raises his hand and is like "but doesn't it need to be set in a non-linear world?"

And Todd grimaces and says "well fuck, that's right, we still gotta do that kind of game too. Well, cut the resources for the exploration parts."

subversus · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
That's just being selfish and ignorant. It's not all about you and your desires. It's about, "Can we do this on 6 year old technology and still make a profit?" Bethesda is a company, ergo a business. And like all business, they aren't going to hang themselves for a small portion of players who can't appreciate the years of work that goes into developing a game as large, open, and free as TES.

Yes, there can always be improvements, but the hardware is limiting the software. You want TES to look super nice? Okay cool. Do us a favor and nag Microsoft and Sony to release new consoles sooner and nag Bethesda to wait next-gen until they release Skyrim. Then come back here and apologize to everyone for forcing the game to be delayed another year or two.

the problem is that we don't know if downgrading textures requires any effort from artists. If it does not and they do high-res as we know then it's a pure "politics" decision. And a stupid one I must say since, as I said before, console players don't care about graphics on PC, but PC players do.

Mr_Brit · Jun 5, 2011

I love how there are 10x as many posts complaining about Dennis than there are posts actually by Dennis. If you don't like what he's saying then either skip his posts or respond to his points reasonably, don't make personal accusations/insults just because he doesn't agree with you on a point.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
That's just being selfish and ignorant. It's not all about you and your desires.

I honestly feel that is somewhat a weird point of view. Because in regards to being a consumer, it is all about what I am getting from the game I am paying for. It is not really my concern to make Betsheda rich or even just "successful".

Listen, if you are going to keep complaining about how bad Skyrim is, then don't play it and don't keep flooding the threads with your complaining.

I have mostly been responding to attacks. I made one comment that the new screenshots were disappointing. That was pretty much all it took for the personal attacks to start, and I don't see why people just expect me to roll over.

I have in this thread, and others, time after time stated my excitement for this game. The one thing I am not pleased with I really think is every bit as legitimate a topic for discussion as any other aspect.

balladofwindfishes · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
I think his argument is that Bethesda should basically approach the PC Skyrim version and the PS360 Skyrim version much like most devs approach the Wii - PS360 dychotomy.

Which is a ridiculous request for a game company.

Chiggs · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
I honestly feel that is somewhat a weird point of view. Because in regards to being a consumer, it is all about what I am getting from the game I am paying for. It is not really my concern to make Betsheda rich.

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't give a crap about their revenues or profit margin. I'm the consumer and I want the best product for my dollar.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

balladofwindfishes said:
Which is a ridiculous request for a game company.

Look, as you can see it's not like me and Dennis are exactly in an honeymoon, but isn't he acknowledging that?

He's more or less repeating (with less eloquence) Amir0x's argument that he's a consumer, and he's not supposed to give a damn about what is profitable/doable/smart/efficient for a company, but he cares about what would make him happy as a buyer.

You may argue he's crossing the line when calling Bethesda "lazy", and you may argue that the idea of approaching PC gaming as its own beast is currently borderline insane (but that may be changing and changing fast), but are we really willing to sink the thread under the discussion of what Dennis thinks?

Is ignoring an opinion you disagree with so hard?

Mr_Brit · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
Look, as you can see it's not like me and Dennis are exactly in an honeymoon, but isn't he acknowledging that?

He's more or less repeating (with less eloquence) Amir0x's argument that he's a consumer, and he's not supposed to give a damn about what is profitable/doable/smart/efficient for a company, but he cares about what would make him happy as a buyer.

You may argue he's crossing the line when calling Bethesda "lazy", and you may argue that the idea of approaching PC gaming as its own beast is currently borderline insane (but that may be changing and changing fast), but are we really willing to sink the thread under the discussion of what Dennis thinks?

Is ignoring an opinion you disagree with so hard?

It would hardly take a massive budget increase or manpower increase to make a good PC version.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
I honestly feel that is somewhat a weird point of view. Because in regards to being a consumer, it is all about what I am getting from the game I am paying for. It is not really my concern to make Betsheda rich or even just "successful".

I meant you as in specifically you and not in the generalized you.

But I do have to point out that most business tend to revolve around money and not consumer happiness. It is a rather contradictory subject, since consumer happiness will usually generate more revenue. But it's rarely the consumers that drive a developer....it the money that drives the developers to make the consumers happy....if that makes any sense.

DennisK4 said:
I have mostly been responding to attacks. I made one comment that the new screenshots were disappointing. That was pretty much all it took for the personal attacks to start, and I don't see why people just expect me to roll over.

I have in this thread, and others, time after time stated my excitement for this game. The one thing I am not pleased with I really think is every bit as legitimate a topic for discussion as any other aspect.

Point taken and noted.

Van Buren · Jun 5, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
It would hardly take a massive budget increase or manpower increase to make a good PC version.

I recall coming across an audio interview where Todd Howard mentions that the PC version will have better textures at the very least. Let me try to track it down.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sw_1P2dvWU

disappeared · Jun 5, 2011

Even if Skyrim ain't looking like it possibly could, it still does destroy Oblivion. That's all I wanted, honestly.

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

Mr_Brit said:
It would hardly take a massive budget increase or manpower increase to make a good PC version.

I guess we will see when we see how good TW2 looks on X360. But generally speaking, I disagree, because in terms of power, right now... the relationship IS sort of similar to the Wii-PS360, at least if you go for high end rigs.

And to get a game that does PC gaming justice, you need to think it as a PC game, not an embellished console version.

Snuggles · Jun 5, 2011

I can't wait to hunt the mastodons.

Hopefully I can carve out the heart and eat it as a declaration of triumph over my prey.

Q: will there be sabretooth tigers as well?

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

disappeared said:
Even if Skyrim ain't looking like it possibly could, it still does destroy Oblivion. That's all I wanted, honestly.

Well, of that there is no doubt.

Especially the characters have been much improved:

disappeared · Jun 5, 2011

Snuggler said:
I can't wait to hunt the mastodons.

Hopefully I can carve out the heart and eat it as a declaration of triumph over my prey.

Most likely:

"Mastadon Meat - Regenerates 1 health for 10 seconds."

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

wit3tyg3r said:
I meant you as in specifically you and not in the generalized you.

But I do have to point out that most business tend to revolve around money and not consumer happiness. It is a rather contradictory subject, since consumer happiness will usually generate more revenue. But it's rarely the consumers that drive a developer....it the money that drives the developers to make the consumers happy....if that makes any sense.

It's ultimately about reaching the point where you think it's enough. There's no such thing as "enough budget spent on graphical assets". You could always go for more. You could always put in more content. You could always perfect things.

The question would be, is Skyrim sufficient in your eyes? Does it "do enough" to be a worthy product?

That's why I disagree on the perspective. I have a pretty beastly gaming rig (i7 2600k at 12gb ram and a GTX580) but I'm not gonna lose my sleep over the fact that devs don't plan their games around me and the what, 100k? 200k? 500k? active gamers with similar computers.

disappeared · Jun 5, 2011

I hope Bethesda took a prompt from Fallout and allows us to sex up some bar wenches.

Chiggs · Jun 5, 2011

I hope there are more than 7 people walking around the streets whenever I enter a city.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
It's ultimately about reaching the point where you think it's enough. There's no such thing as "enough budget spent on graphical assets". You could always go for more. You could always put in more content. You could always perfect things.

The question would be, is Skyrim sufficient in your eyes? Does it "do enough" to be a worthy product?

That's why I disagree on the perspective. I have a pretty beastly gaming rig (i7 2600k at 12gb ram and a GTX580) but I'm not gonna lose my sleep over the fact that devs don't plan their games around me and the what, 100k? 200k? 500k? active gamers with similar computers.

My rig is almost exactly that (the only difference is that I have 8GB of RAM whereas you have 12). The only issue is that the leading development platform is a console, and not a PC. Now if the screenshot we've seen were from the PC, then I would probably be in the same boat as Dennis and the others who share his perspective....but not quite as extreme since graphics are a slightly important factor to me. But the issue here is that because the 360 is their primary platform of revenue, the 360 has taken lead. And because of that, it is much harder to upscale meshes and textures than to downscale them. I agree wholeheartedly that the PC should have been the lead platform, but unfortunately it's not. Us PC gamers aren't the primary target.

But I think that this argument has gone far enough and should be ended promptly. Let's hold off until we hear more from E3.

All I can say is, I am super excited about this game, and it looks a ton better than Oblivion, which is all I really care about, graphically. I don't expect graphical behemoths from Bethesda because I know that I will always have fun with their TES/Fallout games despite how bad they look compared to other games released in the same time.

..And that there are 188 days until release....at least that's time to finish other games

Chiggs said:
I hope there are more than 7 people walking around the streets whenever I enter a city.

This.
It always bothered me that the Imperial City had only a handful of people when there should be hundreds bustling around.

...okay maybe not hundreds, but 30-40 per district at LEAST...but again, rendering issues with the old hardware would present problems. Sony and Microsoft should have ditched their motion controlling peripherals for updated hardware. Then everyone would be happy....well, at least happier

fizzelopeguss · Jun 5, 2011

Don't even have to redo assets, just bang in AO and extra post process effects so it doesn't look so fucking flat.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

Snuggler said:
I can't wait to hunt the mastodons.

Hopefully I can carve out the heart and eat it as a declaration of triumph over my prey.

Q: will there be sabretooth tigers as well?

I just want to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of the women.

Lakitu · Jun 5, 2011

I read the Playstation Magazine article. It sounds so good.

Did I read it right, NPCs will chant 'Dovahkiin' after a battle?

Sn4ke_911 · Jun 5, 2011

Skyrim - so much better.

shadowsdarknes · Jun 5, 2011

From the footage I have watched of The Witcher 2, and that of TES:V, I absolutely believe TES:V graphics are vastly better than The Witcher 2. I think the first-person perspective brings the world to life. The mountains, forests, lakes and other landscapes have such a more organic feel to them. One of the mountains in Skyrim actually looks like it has an elevation above 10,000ft whereas a similar mountain in The Witcher, or any 3rd person POV game looks like an ant hill and fake. That is one major reason why I think Skyrim's graphics waste The Witcher 2's.

Dennis: It all comes down to opinion homie. You may be disappointed by Skyrim's graphics and believe they can be better, but most of us are impressed by what Bethesda has done, especially with the in-game footage running in motion. You don't need to respond to "personal attacks" either, just ignore them, because it's shitting up the thread. It's just not worth defending your opinion because that is all it is, an opinion. You do have, however, valid points but are they worth taking a stand against all the fans over? There is nothing wrong with criticism, however, criticism can only go too far before the conversation turns into a shitty argument, ruining the thread for people anticipating new information about new gameplay additions/mechanics in turn.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

Lakitu said:
I read the Playstation Magazine article. It sounds so good.

Did I read it right, NPCs will chant 'Dovahkiin' after a battle?

The screenshots are amazing, too. There's some badass looking armor in there.

The author of the article describes his own character raising his fists and shouting Dovahkiin! after taking out a Dragon, though. Not sure if that'll be in the game. :lo

VisanidethDM · Jun 5, 2011

shadowsdarknes said:
From the footage I have watched of The Witcher 2, and that of TES:V, I absolutely believe TES:V graphics are vastly better than The Witcher 2. I think the first-person perspective brings the world to life. The mountains, forests, lakes and other landscapes have such a more organic feel to them. One of the mountains in Skyrim actually looks like it has an elevation above 10,000ft whereas a similar mountain in The Witcher, or any 3rd person POV game looks like an ant hill and fake. That is one major reason why I think Skyrim's graphics waste The Witcher 2's.

I'd have to disagree. TW2 does a few impressive tricks with vistas and draw distance, and while you can't always (or rather, almost never) go anywhere you can see, it's not truly a corridor game. What is shown, in terms of quality and detail, massively overshadows what we saw so far of Skyrim. The texture work in TW2 is insane.

I think when Dennis will have played it his opinion on it will change a bit. It's a great title, but my personal opinion is that it's a console game optimized for PC.

GhaleonEB · Jun 5, 2011

NullPointer said:
I actually just ran into a pretty serious conflict of interest in my most recent thieves guild mission. The item in question was being kept by a court mage of Bravil, and you're given a license to kill under certain conditions if need be. No matter what I tried or how long I waited (days and days) this guy would just not leave the sight of his precious. I even popped an invisibility potion and tried to snag it right in front of him, but as soon as you open a chest the invisibility dispels.

So I made a new save, snuck up and killed him (6x damage, huzzah) and a message popped up immediately that I had been banned from the mage's guild. Not seeing any other way to accomplish my mission I reloaded my previous save, ran in, took the item and booked it to the nearest lake and swam my Argonian ass off Never did get any bounty for doing it that way, which is strange.

Interesting, I never ran into that one myself. I was thinking more along the lines of factional warfare or rivalries in my reply. Might be best to take them sequentially.

The Dark Brotherhood is the best thing in Oblivion (outside of the Shivering Isles). Can't wait for it in Skyrim.

Sn4ke_911 said:
Skyrim - so much better.

http://i.imgur.com/0XFEX.jpg

Oblivion's characters were always fugly, but hot damn. That's just comical in comparison. :lol

Van Buren · Jun 5, 2011

shadowsdarknes said:
From the footage I have watched of The Witcher 2, and that of TES:V, I absolutely believe TES:V graphics are vastly better than The Witcher 2. I think the first-person perspective brings the world to life. The mountains, forests, lakes and other landscapes have such a more organic feel to them. One of the mountains in Skyrim actually looks like it has an elevation above 10,000ft whereas a similar mountain in The Witcher, or any 3rd person POV game looks like an ant hill and fake. That is one major reason why I think Skyrim's graphics waste The Witcher 2's.

Having played Witcher 2, I'm going to have to disagree. What's been shown of Skyrim is good for what it is, considering the sacrifices to visual fidelity arising out of being developed for dated console tech. Witcher 2 features the most organic environments I've seen in a game, and the stunning art direction is further bolstered by the most detailed texture work in a game.

Besides, discounting the graphical prowess of a game owing to the lack of a huge mountain seems bewildering to me, especially since a mountain of such scale would have seemed out of place without a story to go along with it.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

More info from the magazine:

- The city of Whiterun is surrounded by brown and green tundra
- Mammoths travel in herds, and usually with giants. Attack one mammoth, and youll get the entire herd after you.
- An attacking dragon is decribed as picking up a Giants body in its claws
- Dragons can sometimes back eachother up in combat (though its not common)
- Not every dragon is a fire dragon. There are other types.
- One of the boss-level enemies is called a Draugr Overlord
- Ward spells are a magical shield, and are an effective alternative to using a corporeal one.
- The three crafting systems in the game are enchantment, alchemy and smithing.
- The dungeons in Skyrim are Bethesdas way of making a more scripted, dramatic experience
- You can loot giants noses and toes.
- Contrary to what the magazine says, armor is still in seperate pieces. PRAISE THE LORD.

ezekial45 · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- According to the magazine, armor and clothing will be single-piece now, rather than in different pieces like in Oblivion or Morrowind. I distinctly recall Pete Hines denying this a few weeks back, so Im not sure if its true or not. If it is What the fuck, Bethesda?

That suuuuuuuuuuuucccckkkkkkkss.

Dennis · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- You can loot giants noses and toes.

wat

Gravijah · Jun 5, 2011

ezekial45 said:
That suuuuuuuuuuuucccckkkkkkkss.

I would kill someone if that were true.

UrbanRats · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- According to the magazine, armor and clothing will be single-piece now, rather than in different pieces like in Oblivion or Morrowind. I distinctly recall Pete Hines denying this a few weeks back, so Im not sure if its true or not. If it is What the fuck, Bethesda?

Fuck no.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

Okay guys, according to the Bethesda forums, the information is indeed false. I'll update you in a sec.

Sorry 'bout the panic for a moment.

shadowsdarknes · Jun 5, 2011

VisanidethDM said:
I'd have to disagree. TW2 does a few impressive tricks with vistas and draw distance, and while you can't always (or rather, almost never) go anywhere you can see, it's not truly a corridor game. What is shown, in terms of quality and detail, massively overshadows what we saw so far of Skyrim. The texture work in TW2 is insane.

I think when Dennis will have played it his opinion on it will change a bit. It's a great title, but my personal opinion is that it's a console game optimized for PC.

The texture work in TW2 is insane for sure, and there is no doubt its better than Skyrim's. For me, on the other hand, textures are the least common denominator in terms of creating an engrossing, atmospheric environment to play in.

I haven't watched enough of TW2 to make a fair judgment so I am calling it how I have seen it thus far, and we only have one gameplay trailer and a few in-game screen shots which have varied from shot to shot for Skyrim. Nonetheless, with what I have seen of Skyrim, I can honestly say I am very impressed and believe it will be one of the most beautiful RPG to traverse through the diverse landscapes like all the other Elder Scrolls games have been before.

Gravijah · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
Okay guys, according to the Bethesda forums, the information is indeed false. I'll update you in a sec.

Sorry 'bout the panic for a moment.

Now you deserve death.

K.Sabot · Jun 5, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- According to the magazine, armor and clothing will be single-piece now, rather than in different pieces like in Oblivion or Morrowind. I distinctly recall Pete Hines denying this a few weeks back, so Im not sure if its true or not. If it is What the fuck, Bethesda?

It's over, RPGs are finished.

Edit: Oh thank god.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

Gravijah said:
Now you deserve death.

Just reportin' what I read, good sir. Kill the Playstation Magazine folks for their shoddy journalism. :lol

Here's the original Bethesda thread on the subject.

Stahsky · Jun 5, 2011

K.Sabot said:
It's over, RPGs are finished.

It's over, reading is finished.

Blue Ninja · Jun 5, 2011

DennisK4 said:
wat

Apparently, they're edible. If the magazine is correct. Which it may not be. At all.

I also updated the OP. I removed the part about the "possible dual-wielding loadouts", because the way it was reported on Bethesda's forums and the way it was in the magazine is rather different. :lol

ajb1888 · Jun 6, 2011

Release this now, Bethesda (by that I meant that it should have been planned for summer release). Games like this are fucking perfect to spend 200-300 hours in Summer when not many high profile/big budget games are releasing.

I totally agree! Summer's a great time to play games lol. If November wasn't the start of a holiday shopping season, maybe Skyrim coulda released in June... sigh :/

ajb1888 · Jun 6, 2011

MirageDwarf said:
Release this now, Bethesda (by that I meant that it should have been planned for summer release). Games like this are fucking perfect to spend 200-300 hours in Summer when not many high profile/big budget games are releasing.

I totally agree! Summer's a great time to play games lol. If November wasn't the start of a holiday shopping season, maybe Skyrim coulda released in June... sigh :/

bananaman1234 · Jun 6, 2011

They need all the time they can get to make this game stable

Sinoox · Jun 6, 2011

ajb1888 said:
I totally agree! Summer's a great time to play games lol. If November wasn't the start of a holiday shopping season, maybe Skyrim coulda released in June... sigh :/

Well you could always hold off on playing it until the following summer : /

ajb1888 · Jun 6, 2011

isoku said:
They need all the time they can get to make this game stable

The occasional bug can be quite amusing sometimes lol... but yeah. I just hate the wait.

wit3tyg3r · Jun 6, 2011

Blue Ninja said:
- Contrary to what the magazine says, armor is still in seperate pieces. PRAISE THE LORD.

This is exactly what I would be doing if my family weren't in the room with me

ajb1888 · Jun 6, 2011

Sinoox said:
Well you could always hold off on playing it until the following summer : /

Might be a GOTY edition by then haha..

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