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New Orleans Starts Tearing Down Confederate Monuments, Sparking Protest

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M

metalslimer

Member
Most residents of NOLA either are happy they are coming down or don't give two shits. There is nothing to honor about the confederate "heroes".
 
T

Toxi

Banned
You guys do realize display space in a museum is at a premium, right?

And a big-ass statue takes up a lot of display space.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Cocaloch said:
I mean literally in your statement you're turning this into it being about racial slavery. This is the root of the issue. Focusing on anything else gives apologists room in which to maneuver.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with semantic games here. I'm certainly not trying to paint this figures in a positive light.
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Because I'm not sure why we shouldn't call them traitors and bigots. Calling them traitors doesn't somehow distract or negate all the racial and slavery bull shit.
 
S

Silent_Ocarina

Member
I grew up in southern Louisiana where it's mostly Republican. I have had good friends I knew in high school fervently opposing the removal of these statues (funnily enough one of those guys LOVES calling Democrats snowflakes). They really like to twist the meaning of these statues. Some posts try to convince you the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Other posts try to highlight all the great things Robert E. Lee did in his life (ironically one of the highlights is "he actually opposed slavery).
 
F

Fercho

Member
Silent_Ocarina said:
I grew up in southern Louisiana where it's mostly Republican. I have had good friends I knew in high school fervently opposing the removal of these statues (funnily enough one of those guys LOVES calling Democrats snowflakes). They really like to twist the meaning of these statues. Some posts try to convince you the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Other posts try to highlight all the great things Robert E. Lee did in his life (ironically one of the highlights is "he actually opposed slavery).
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Yeah, i remember one show where supporters of these monuments (or confederate flag, i don't remember really well) where questioned on why they were mad. They say that because it was their heritage and were proud of it.

This is one thing i hate about these racists pricks. They are too afraid to actually own their shit. At least be open about it, cowards.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
Clickhole's take on this is savage.

Closing A Chapter: Last Night A Construction Crew Took Down The Controversial 400-Foot Statue Of Hitler That Welcomes Visitors To Wisconsin

Watch out, Wisconsin, because political turmoil is heading your way.

Protesters are up in arms over the latest controversy regarding a historical monument in the small town of Beloit, and this one shows no signs of simmering down: Last night a construction crew took down the divisive 400-foot-tall statue of Hitler that welcomes visitors to Wisconsin.

Let’s just say that while the statue might be gone, the rallies aren’t going away anytime soon.

...
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T

Toxi

Banned
Angelus Errare said:
You're right, they should be melted.
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Either that or just thrown into storage. Both are more reasonable than forcing museums to clear out public display space for a bunch of racist statues.

Melting them has the added benefit of seeing Robert E Lee reduced to slag.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Silent_Ocarina said:
I grew up in southern Louisiana where it's mostly Republican. I have had good friends I knew in high school fervently opposing the removal of these statues (funnily enough one of those guys LOVES calling Democrats snowflakes). They really like to twist the meaning of these statues. Some posts try to convince you the Civil War wasn't about slavery. Other posts try to highlight all the great things Robert E. Lee did in his life (ironically one of the highlights is "he actually opposed slavery).
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I like to show people the letters of secession from various states that specifically state that they are seceding due to them wanting to keep slavery around. That usually shuts them up.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Toxi said:
Either that or just thrown into storage. Both are more reasonable than forcing museums to clear out public display space for a bunch of racist statues.
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I honestly think most of these statues will end up in storage. Whether they find a spot at a museum or something is another question but I don't think they'll outright destroy them. Who know's, they could auction them off to rich racists who want to buy them.
 
E

EdibleKnife

Member
theCalamity said:
I like to show people the letters of secession from various states that specifically state that they are seceding due to them wanting to keep slavery around. That usually shuts them up.
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People should also just point blank be asked if and why they think a statue to such people is more worthwhile than Union statues, let alone statues clearly depicting slavery and the fact that it was in Confederate interests to keep such scenes going into the modern age
 
X

xDUMPWEEDx

Banned
Sou Da said:
Unsurprisingly enough his base have been giving him shit for it.
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They are probably Southerners who feel like they are being lectured by a Long Islander about Southern history. I don't know what else it could be. Colin attacks that point heavily though, that Southerners shouldn't place their heritage on the short few years that a failed secessionist movement lasted. The Confederacy only lasted like 5 years, yet some Southerners want to believe that all of southern heritage is wrapped into that tiny timeframe i.e. southern cross + stars and bars flags, south will rise again types, etc.
 
C

Cocaloch

Member
Covertshinobee said:
Pictures are enough for historical archives. They should just grind the statues and turn them into new public toilets.
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I don't care about whether or not the statues are preserved, but historians and art-historians would generally not agree with this. It's preferable to have the actual piece itself. If we want to preserve them, then there is a value to preserving them as intact statues.

HStallion said:
Because I'm not sure why we shouldn't call them traitors and bigots. Calling them traitors doesn't somehow distract or negate all the racial and slavery bull shit.
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Because that gives apologists a way to weasel out by focusing on the descriptor that isn't inherently negative, traitor. Which is exactly what actually happens whenever stuff like this is brought up with these people. What do you think the state's rights arguments are about?

Focus on the fact that these men supported a slave society with a racial hierarchy.
 
H

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Cocaloch said:
Because that gives apologists a way to weasel out by focusing on the descriptor that isn't inherently negative, traitor. Which is exactly what actually happens whenever stuff like this is brought up with these people. What do you think the state's rights arguments are about?

Focus on the fact that these men supported a slave society with a racial hierarchy.
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Again calling them traitors does not somehow affect the fact that they were a slave society in anyone's mind that isn't far gone down the rabbit hole. Calling them traitors doesn't somehow erase the last hundred and fifty or so years of American history since the Civil War.

I'd also say you're wrong and being a traitor is inherently a negative thing and even when used jokingly is implying betrayal even if for humor. Betrayal is not something most anyone looks kindly on.
 
C

Cocaloch

Member
HStallion said:
Again calling them traitors does not somehow affect the fact that they were a slave society in anyone's mind that isn't far gone down the rabbit hole. Calling them traitors doesn't somehow erase the last hundred and fifty or so years of American history since the Civil War.
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Except you're making a broader argument without additional analytical value.

Talking about them being traitors just opens up a superfluous line of argumentation. Leaner arguments are generally better. This is particularly true in this case.

Again, why do you think the state's rights thing is brought up?
 
K

kirblar

Member
Cocaloch said:
Except you're making a broader argument without additional analytical value.

Talking about them being traitors just opens up a superfluous line of argumentation. Leaner arguments are generally better. This is particularly true in this case.

Again, why do you think the state's rights thing is brought up?
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We talk about them beung traitors because today. people i n Union states fly the confederate flag, and we want to make it crystal clear who those people are.
 
T

theCalamity

Member
Cocaloch said:
Except you're making a broader argument without additional analytical value.

Talking about them being traitors just opens up a superfluous line of argumentation. Leaner arguments are generally better. This is particularly true in this case.

Again, why do you think the state's rights thing is brought up?
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You're assuming that people are rational. Calling the Confederacy tratitors appeals to their emotions, especially the ARE TROOPS types.
 
E

EdibleKnife

Member
Cocaloch said:
Because that gives apologists a way to weasel out by focusing on the descriptor that isn't inherently negative, traitor. Which is exactly what actually happens whenever stuff like this is brought up with these people. What do you think the state's rights arguments are about?

Focus on the fact that these men supported a slave society with a racial hierarchy.
Click to expand...

No conversation about these people stops at: "Well they were traitors and nothing else and that's bad." When people mention them, they talk about their traitorous nature as people who literally fit the definition laid out for being such during that time in US government, as well as the fact that they were unrepentant racists willing to start a war with their fellow Americans so they could continue to rape, abuse and use black people as cattle until they died. An apologist that stops when they hear the word "traitor" to interject about how "Well in some mythos uh the traitors are the heroes of the story!1" hasn't actually put up a functional argument for the preservation of the statues or the worth in praising the men they represent. Their "weaseling out" means nothing when they're throwing out the context of the word. These same people also aren't the type to be convinced of the evil nature of their heroes even if they were only ever referred to as "people who wanted to own and kill blacks and rejoiced at the idea of black subjugation for eternity".
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Well, we definitely don't want to erase our history. To that end, maybe we can replace these monuments with statues of William Tecumseh Sherman with his foot atop a miniature burning building. It would help us remember history.
 
T

The Last Wizard

Member
Z3M0G said:
I'm shocked by how many people say they should be destroyed instead of put on display in an isolated location, at the very least...

The bad points of history shouldn't be wiped out... they should be studied and learned from, even more so than the good points in history.
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Here's the thing, it's not being erased from books. Statues are getting destroyed. Also, the really terrible aren't in the books or taught to kids regardless. Lastly, even if they're still around people will constantly make the same mistakes. Look at the nazis and alt right on the come up now and how they're given a voice and people saying violence ain't the answer.
 
M

Matt

Member
Cyan said:
Well, we definitely don't want to erase our history. To that end, maybe we can replace these monuments with statues of William Tecumseh Sherman with his foot atop a miniature burning building. It would help us remember history.
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Deal!
 
X

Xe4

Banned
djplaeskool said:
God damn.
Mayor Landrieu broke it the fuck down.
This is an incredible speech.
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Yup. I was going to bump the thread with this but forgot. Thanks.

Such a beautiful speech. A must read, especially if you're wondering why it's important that we do this.

Here's the full speech and some excerpts.
America was the place where nearly 4,000 of our fellow citizens were lynched, 540 alone in Louisiana; where the courts enshrined ‘separate but equal'; where Freedom riders coming to New Orleans were beaten to a bloody pulp.

So when people say to me that the monuments in question are history, well what I just described is real history as well, and it is the searing truth.

And it immediately begs the questions: why there are no slave ship monuments, no prominent markers on public land to remember the lynchings or the slave blocks; nothing to remember this long chapter of our lives; the pain, the sacrifice, the shame ... all of it happening on the soil of New Orleans.

So for those self-appointed defenders of history and the monuments, they are eerily silent on what amounts to this historical malfeasance, a lie by omission.

There is a difference between remembrance of history and reverence of it. For America and New Orleans, it has been a long, winding road, marked by great tragedy and great triumph. But we cannot be afraid of our truth.
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The historic record is clear: the Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and P.G.T. Beauregard statues were not erected just to honor these men, but as part of the movement which became known as The Cult of the Lost Cause. This ‘cult' had one goal — through monuments and through other means — to rewrite history to hide the truth, which is that the Confederacy was on the wrong side of humanity.

First erected over 166 years after the founding of our city and 19 years after the end of the Civil War, the monuments that we took down were meant to rebrand the history of our city and the ideals of a defeated Confederacy.

It is self-evident that these men did not fight for the United States of America, They fought against it. They may have been warriors, but in this cause they were not patriots.

These statues are not just stone and metal. They are not just innocent remembrances of a benign history. These monuments purposefully celebrate a fictional, sanitized Confederacy; ignoring the death, ignoring the enslavement, and the terror that it actually stood for.

After the Civil War, these statues were a part of that terrorism as much as a burning cross on someone's lawn; they were erected purposefully to send a strong message to all who walked in their shadows about who was still in charge in this city.
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As clear as it is for me today ... for a long time, even though I grew up in one of New Orleans' most diverse neighborhoods, even with my family's long proud history of fighting for civil rights ... I must have passed by those monuments a million times without giving them a second thought.

So I am not judging anybody, I am not judging people. We all take our own journey on race. I just hope people listen like I did when my dear friend Wynton Marsalis helped me see the truth. He asked me to think about all the people who have left New Orleans because of our exclusionary attitudes.

Another friend asked me to consider these four monuments from the perspective of an African American mother or father trying to explain to their fifth grade daughter who Robert E. Lee is and why he stands atop of our beautiful city. Can you do it?

Can you look into that young girl's eyes and convince her that Robert E. Lee is there to encourage her? Do you think she will feel inspired and hopeful by that story? Do these monuments help her see a future with limitless potential? Have you ever thought that if her potential is limited, yours and mine are too?
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History cannot be changed. It cannot be moved like a statue. What is done is done. The Civil War is over, and the Confederacy lost and we are better for it. Surely we are far enough removed from this dark time to acknowledge that the cause of the Confederacy was wrong.

And in the second decade of the 21st century, asking African Americans — or anyone else — to drive by property that they own; occupied by reverential statues of men who fought to destroy the country and deny that person's humanity seems perverse and absurd.

Centuries-old wounds are still raw because they never healed right in the first place.
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So before we part let us again state the truth clearly.

The Confederacy was on the wrong side of history and humanity. It sought to tear apart our nation and subjugate our fellow Americans to slavery. This is the history we should never forget and one that we should never again put on a pedestal to be revered.

As a community, we must recognize the significance of removing New Orleans' Confederate monuments. It is our acknowledgment that now is the time to take stock of, and then move past, a painful part of our history. Anything less would render generations of courageous struggle and soul-searching a truly lost cause.

Anything less would fall short of the immortal words of our greatest President Abraham Lincoln, who with an open heart and clarity of purpose calls on us today to unite as one people when he said:

”With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to do all which may achieve and cherish: a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations."
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http://pulsegulfcoast.com/2017/05/t...or-landrieus-address-on-confederate-monuments
 
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