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Masahiro Sakurai, The only Nintendo Dev that knows his fan base?

J

Josephl64

Member
fredrancour said:
I nominate Konno. Mario kart consistently leads the company's online effors each gen, and he's now adding the options to restrain items. If he were to offer the option of a double dash mode and improve battle mode, he'd have fulfilled all the fan's stereotypical complaints laundry list.



The animal crossing one is totally right. However....

Many, many 3d mario fans preferred the exploration elements to linear action-oriented elements. EAD Tokyo expressly stated their design goal was to chase consumers who previously only played 2d mario. 3D World was defined by Nintendo's business goals, not their impressions of 3D mario fans' desires.

While FEA was a success, the overwhelming majority of the people that made it one were people new to the franchise. The majority of fire emblem's tiny existing fanbase found it to be a downgrade in terms of the things they were buying the game for to begin with.
Click to expand...

completely true, which is why the old FE fanbase still usually hold Genealogy of the Holy war and Thracia in higher regards.

Awakening is still good, but I just hate how easy it is with the new supports, no great map variation, no tower defending mechanisms, etc. ...but that's a discussion for another time.

We are tiny, so I expect the next FE to be pretty much like Awakening
 
C

Comfort Jones

Banned
botty said:
Why are you undermining what has been changed? Smash 4 has directly addressed several major issues that fans (not just the competitive scene) have complained about:

  • tripping
  • shallow online
  • speed
  • floatiness
  • character balance
  • adding actual Nintendo enemies to the "adventure"/Smash Run
Click to expand...

It's like I....already addressed that with this: "Those issues in Brawl were added to that game. They were not present in Melee or 64. Hell the guys that worked on those games are nowhere to be seen in Brawl, and it shows. Saying "I'm not putting tripping in this game" is like someone's crazy ex girlfriend saying they won't shit in their cereal again. And then he "trolled us". That's not worthy of applause."

So we got tripping, maybe the dumbest intentional design decision of all time, a lack of speed and floatiness, also all intentional, shitty character balance, something that was obvious within less than a month after the game came out, and shallow online. These are not minor flaws in an otherwise good game. They were major flaws in a sequel to a good game and somehow I'm supposed to be impressed that they aren't returning.

Once again, wow, thanks for not taking a dump in my cereal!

Also this
Your complaints are all rooted in melee/brawl mentality competitive mentality. We don't know what the tier list will look like, and we don't know if stuff like yoshi island, FoD, or PS will even return. Either way, playing with friends allows for fully customizable battles... so what really is the issue here?
Click to expand...

is a straw man and does nothing to actually refute my argument that he is not somehow "in tune" with his fanbase.
 
A

astrogamer

Member
I don't get why everyone is so upset about For Glory being FD only. It's reasonably fair especially if chain grabbing is limited and playing actual tournaments online won't be done in that mode. It will be played in the friends portion of online where you choose the rules and the stage. If you want a few rounds practice and serious about smash, you go to For Glory. It makes the most basic metagame. Then, the community forms a better metagame encompasses all stages that most of community will play. It's was a little sad that Sakurai doesn't get that platforms are pretty important to the meta, but it's a pretty good step towards.
 
F

Freezie KO

Banned
astrogamer said:
I don't get why everyone is so upset about For Glory being FD only. It's reasonably fair especially if chain grabbing is limited and playing actual tournaments online won't be done in that mode. It will be played in the friends portion of online where you choose the rules and the stage. If you want a few rounds practice and serious about smash, you go to For Glory. It makes the most basic metagame. Then, the community forms a better metagame encompasses all stages that most of community will play. It's was a little sad that Sakurai doesn't get that platforms are pretty important to the meta, but it's a pretty good step towards.
Click to expand...

It's more important that it's timed only instead of stock.
 
G

GamerJM

Banned
astrogamer said:
I don't get why everyone is so upset about For Glory being FD only. It's reasonably fair especially if chain grabbing is limited and playing actual tournaments online won't be done in that mode. It will be played in the friends portion of online where you choose the rules and the stage. If you want a few rounds practice and serious about smash, you go to For Glory. It makes the most basic metagame. Then, the community forms a better metagame encompasses all stages that most of community will play. It's was a little sad that Sakurai doesn't get that platforms are pretty important to the meta, but it's a pretty good step towards.
Click to expand...

It's a decent first step towards it. I think it's just sort of frustrating to people because, well, like, look at it this way. Most people probably had it in their heads that Smash 4 wouldn't do anything to appease the "core competitive market" directly aside from faster speed than Brawl. However, they figured that there's would be a very slim chance that the team does try to appease that market a little more, they would do something more direct. This shows Sakurai's team trying to appease the core base but doing it in a way that doesn't actually fit the fans. It's a weird because it shows willingness to try and appease the fanbase but ignorance about what they actually want, which I think is frustrating to the competitive community, as they've made several attempts to reach out to Nintendo over the years.

Personally I'm not really upset though, just a little disappointed that they're doing a mode like this but they're leaving it at FD/timed.
 
B

botty

Banned
Comfort Jones said:
It's like I....already addressed that with this: "Those issues in Brawl were added to that game. They were not present in Melee or 64. Hell the guys that worked on those games are nowhere to be seen in Brawl, and it shows. Saying "I'm not putting tripping in this game" is like someone's crazy ex girlfriend saying they won't shit in their cereal again. And then he "trolled us". That's not worthy of applause."

So we got tripping, maybe the dumbest intentional design decision of all time, a lack of speed and floatiness, also all intentional, shitty character balance, something that was obvious within less than a month after the game came out, and shallow online. These are not minor flaws in an otherwise good game. They were major flaws in a sequel to a good game and somehow I'm supposed to be impressed that they aren't returning.

Once again, wow, thanks for not taking a dump in my cereal!

Also this

is a straw man and does nothing to actually refute my argument that he is not somehow "in tune" with his fanbase.
Click to expand...

Making Brawl's gameplay floaty, long winded, and slower is not a flaw like you're making them out to be. They are issues, yes, but definitely not flaws. The game was meant to appeal to a wider audience and fit into the Wii's narrative. Based on its sales, I'd say it did a damn good job of doing so. Now tripping is something that I would consider a flaw, and also that dire online, but of the things I listed those are probably the only things.

We must remember that the core smash players with wavedash hardons are not the only people buying this game, and what happened with Brawl comes off completely different to some. I'd say Sakurai is doing his best to please both sides with a lot of these tweaks. This isn't him not fucking up, this is him trying to appeal to everyone.
 
C

Comfort Jones

Banned
botty said:
Making Brawl's gameplay floaty, long winded, and slower is not a flaw like you're making them out to be. They are issues, yes, but definitely not flaws.
Click to expand...

Issues...but not flaws.

Uhuh.

So the game being super campy, slow, unbalanced, recovery is now way easier and edge guarding is watered down to shit etc, that's all an "issue" but not a flaw.

We must remember that the core smash players with wavedash hardons are not the only people buying this game, and what happened with Brawl comes off completely different to some. I'd say Sakurai is doing his best to please both sides with a lot of these tweaks. This isn't him not fucking up, this is him trying to appeal to everyone.
Click to expand...

Wow I love how you're just casually using derogatory language (Wavedash hardons? Really?) while continuing to not actually refute my points. I'm saying he fucked up big time. Melee already appealed to everyone, he actively went out of his way to screw with the game to make it not very viable for competitive play. Removing tripping and SUPPOSEDLY fixing other issues does not make him "in touch" when his work with Brawl is basically the polar opposite of being in touch with the fanbase.

You keep arguing around my points or you choose to casually insult people who play the game even somewhat seriously. The straw man is real.
 
B

botty

Banned
Comfort Jones said:
Issues...but not flaws.

Uhuh.

So the game being super campy, slow, unbalanced, recovery is now way easier and edge guarding is watered down to shit etc, that's all an "issue" but not a flaw.



Wow I love how you're just casually using derogatory language (Wavedash hardons? Really?) while continuing to not actually refute my points. I'm saying he fucked up big time. Melee already appealed to everyone, he actively went out of his way to screw with the game to make it not very viable for competitive play. Removing tripping and SUPPOSEDLY fixing other issues does not make him "in touch" when his work with Brawl is basically the polar opposite of being in touch with the fanbase.

You keep arguing around my points or you choose to casually insult people who play the game even somewhat seriously. The straw man is real.
Click to expand...

Think about the context in which you are referring to the game being campy, slow, and unbalanced. This is all based on a competitive mentality. Do you think the millions of people who purchased Brawl only play on tourney sanctioned stages? With items on and banned stages available, most of those complaints are completely null. And let's not forget that Brawl outsold Melee, so it clearly appealed to more people... which what Nintendo and Sakurai wanted.

Dude, don't get sensitive on me. The language is casual, but hardly derogatory. And remember, we aren't talking about him being in touch with his fan base during the Brawl error. I'm talking about here and now. I mean... you say I am avoiding your points, but I don't see how openly directly addressing issues your fans had with the previous game and working to fix them isn't being in tune. He could have just gave us Brawl 2.0
 
F

Freezie KO

Banned
botty said:
And let's not forget that Brawl outsold Melee, so it clearly appealed to more people... which what Nintendo and Sakurai wanted.
Click to expand...

That's a grossly inaccurate reading of the situation. You're completely ignoring install bases and what drives people to actually buy the hardware in the first place. You can't make that call either way.
 
C

Comfort Jones

Banned
Freezie KO said:
That's a grossly inaccurate reading of the situation. You're completely ignoring install bases and what drives people to actually buy the hardware in the first place. You can't make that call either way.
Click to expand...

Yeah pretty much this.

It's not exactly like only competitive players took issue with the game also. But yeah sorry for thinking the quality of the game wasn't good and him somehow fixing it shows that he's in touch, which has my point from the get go? If he's so fucking in touch why has he made such insanely huge changes to the game? Are we going to pretend the people buying the game have somehow changed from SUPER HARDCORE to SUPER CASUAL and now something in between? He's even said they're aiming for something sorta in between, which is kinda hilarious seeing how Melee already perfectly appealed to both crowds.
 
B

botty

Banned
Freezie KO said:
That's a grossly inaccurate reading of the situation. You're completely ignoring install bases and what drives people to actually buy the hardware in the first place. You can't make that call either way.
Click to expand...

True. Maybe. Tell that to Metroid: Other M.

Comfort Jones said:
Yeah pretty much this.

It's not exactly like only competitive players took issue with the game also. But yeah sorry for thinking the quality of the game wasn't good and him somehow fixing it shows that he's in touch, which has my point from the get go? If he's so fucking in touch why has he made such insanely huge changes to the game? Are we going to pretend the people buying the game have somehow changed from SUPER HARDCORE to SUPER CASUAL and now something in between? He's even said they're aiming for something sorta in between, which is kinda hilarious seeing how Melee already perfectly appealed to both crowds.
Click to expand...

Can you clarify what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're saying by addressing the issues he isn't in touch.
 
C

Comfort Jones

Banned
Botty I love this mental acrobatics you're going through while we continuously go in the same circle. I'm done as long as you continue this kind of dialogue, it's ridiculous. I start by saying it's stupid to think that somehow him responding to backlash to CLEARLY stupid design decisions does not equal "in tune" and we're now at WELL IT SOLD BETTER LOL WAVEDASH HARD ONS. Boy so I guess sales is all we need to measure if someone is in touch with their fanbase now, makes sense. Totally.
 
T

theprodigy

Member
Freezie KO said:
What if the 3DS does better than Smash 64 and the Wii U version does worse, but the 3DS and Wii U play the same?!
Click to expand...

oh yeah I forgot about the even more obvious 3DS sales>Wii U sales part
how silly of me

although, if people still want to play better sales=more accessible game, we can do this all generation long....
 
B

botty

Banned
theprodigy said:
So when the Wii U version does worse than Smash 64, the 64 version was more liked than SSB4 Wii U?
I don't think so
Click to expand...

Now we can't measure how "liked" a game was, so I won't go down that route. However, I don't think saying Brawl appeals to more people because it sold more than Melee is incorrect at all. I brought up Other M because the situations are similar if we're referring to install base: GCN versus Wii. However, we know Other M sold less than Prime. If we want to stick within the same "series," then I guess the gap between MP3 and MP1 should have been much larger if install base is to be added this equation. Now, obviously a large install base does offer a broader audience... a larger group to appeal to, if you will. So when I saw Brawl appealed to more people and that it sold more, I can't detect the lie.

Comfort Jones said:
Botty I love this mental acrobatics you're going through while we continuously go in the same circle. I'm done as long as you continue this kind of dialogue, it's ridiculous. I start by saying it's stupid to think that somehow him responding to backlash to CLEARLY stupid design decisions does not equal "in tune" and we're now at WELL IT SOLD BETTER LOL WAVEDASH HARD ONS. Boy so I guess sales is all we need to measure if someone is in touch with their fanbase now, makes sense. Totally.
Click to expand...

Why are you so stuck on "wavedash hardons"?

And do you think those design decisions were stupid because they were anti-competitive or?
 
T

theprodigy

Member
botty said:
Now we can't measure how "liked" a game was, so I won't go down that route. However, I don't think saying Brawl appeals to more people because it sold more than Melee is incorrect at all. I brought up Other M because the situations are similar if we're referring to install base: GCN versus Wii. However, we know Other M sold less than Prime. If we want to stick within the same "series," then I guess the gap between MP3 and MP1 should have been much larger if install base is to be added this equation. Now, obviously a large install base does offer a broader audience... a larger group to appeal to, if you will. So when I saw Brawl appealed to more people and that it sold more, I can't detect the lie.
Click to expand...

if your definition of appeal is purely based on sales, then this is a completely vapid definition that has no meaning
if not......Infamous has broader appeal than Mario these days, you can't dispute that cause sales

especially because it should be obvious that supposed system sellers are affected by the hardware much more than relatively niche games like Metroid, unless you want to claim Super Mario 3D World is also worse than Sunshine because ~sales~

Freezie KO said:
Brawl may have reached tons of people who bought the Wii U and never even heard of Melee.
Click to expand...

eh you said what?

:p
 
F

Freezie KO

Banned
botty said:
Now we can't measure how "liked" a game was, so I won't go down that route. However, I don't think saying Brawl appeals to more people because it sold more than Melee is incorrect at all. I brought up Other M because the situations are similar if we're referring to install base: GCN versus Wii. However, we know Other M sold less than Prime. If we want to stick within the same "series," then I guess the gap between MP3 and MP1 should have been much larger if install base is to be added this equation. Now, obviously a large install base does offer a broader audience... a larger group to appeal to, if you will. So when I saw Brawl appealed to more people and that it sold more, I can't detect the lie.
Click to expand...

It's way more nuanced than you're making it out to be.

Melee may have appealed to more people, but the extra people didn't feel like the Gamecube platform as a whole was worth the investment just to play Melee. Brawl may have reached tons of people who bought the Wii U and never even heard of Melee. In that case, there's no way to make a direct comparison. Perhaps those players would've been more enticed by Melee, but the game was on a much lower profile system. Etc. etc. etc.

There are tons of variables that you're not accounting for. Maybe Brawl does appeal to more people. Maybe not. A strict sales accounting doesn't tell the whole story.

Similarly, Other M was a 2D game with poor word of mouth and less than stellar reviews. Prime was the first of its kind with GOTY-type reviews. Also, the install base on Wii did not have the same demographic make-up as the typically core+kids Gamecube make up. So how a Metroid game appeals to each install base is a question.

Again, you're not accounting for a vast number of variables that a simplistic sales comparison leaves out.
 
B

botty

Banned
Freezie KO said:
It's way more nuanced than you're making it out to be.

Melee may have appealed to more people, but the extra people didn't feel like the Gamecube platform as a whole was worth the investment just to play Melee. Brawl may have reached tons of people who bought the Wii U and never even heard of Melee. In that case, there's no way to make a direct comparison. Perhaps those players would've been more enticed by Melee, but the game was on a much lower profile system. Etc. etc. etc.

There are tons of variables that you're not accounting for. Maybe Brawl does appeal to more people. Maybe not. A strict sales accounting doesn't tell the whole story.

Similarly, Other M was a 2D game with poor word of mouth and less than stellar reviews. Prime was the first of its kind with GOTY-type reviews. Also, the install base on Wii did not have the same demographic make-up as the typically core+kids Gamecube make up. So how a Metroid game appeals to each install base is a question.

Again, you're not accounting for a vast number of variables that a simplistic sales comparison leaves out.
Click to expand...

The appeal of these games is made up of all the things you've mentioned: word of mouth, reviews, and then also things like trailers and hype. Brawl did not sell 11+M over night, so it's safe to say the game continued to be appealing far after the complaints of those that wanted a Melee/more competitive experience from the game. However, Smash also has party aspects that were highlighted more so than before with Brawl. Adding to the fact that the game was critically acclaimed, and an over all well made experience, I'd say you're correct in that sales do not tell the entire story, but they do sure give us a far more palpable idea than "more people preferred this game."

I'd also argue that most if not virtually all of the gamecube owners eventually became Wii owners, too. The install base for the Wii was much to high for them not to have made up at least a nice chunk of that demographic. But whose to know, I guess.
 
T

theprodigy

Member
botty said:
The appeal of these games is made up of all the things you've mentioned: word of mouth, reviews, and then also things like trailers and hype. Brawl did not sell 11+M over night, so it's safe to say the game continued to be appealing far after the complaints of those that wanted a Melee/more competitive experience from the game. However, Smash also has party aspects that were highlighted more so than before with Brawl. Adding to the fact that the game was critically acclaimed, and an over all well made experience, I'd say you're correct in that sales do not tell the entire story, but they do sure give us a far more palpable idea than "more people preferred this game."

I'd also argue that most if not virtually all of the gamecube owners eventually became Wii owners, too. The install base for the Wii was much to high for them not to have made up at least a nice chunk of that demographic. But whose to know, I guess.
Click to expand...

like you so conveniently dodged with this post, what is your definition of "broad appeal"
because if you're riding this sales argument train, have fun taking it to the grave this generation
 
B

botty

Banned
theprodigy said:
like you so conveniently dodged with this post, what is your definition of "broad appeal"
because if you're riding this sales argument train, have fun taking it to the grave this generation
Click to expand...

Meant to appeal to more people by being more of an accessible game aka casual oriented. Brawl is a lot less punishing than Melee, which makes it easy to jump into, imo, for new players.

Sakurai said:
And so the vision for the overall balance of the game in Smash Bros Melee, it was sort of more focused towards more hardcore players. Then when it came around to making Brawl, this was a game that was targeting a Wii audience where there were a lot of beginner players, so it sort of leaned a little bit more in that direction.
So now, for this time around, we're sort of aiming for something that is in between those as far as the speed of the game. Because I don't really think this time we're in a situation where we're trying to accommodate that many new players.
Click to expand...
x

In targeting this "Wii audience" the game was always trying to have broader appeal.
 
T

theprodigy

Member
botty said:
Meant to appeal to more people by being more of an accessible game aka casual oriented. Brawl is a lot less punishing than Melee, which makes it easy to jump into, imo, for new players.


x

In targeting this "Wii audience" the game was always trying to have broader appeal.
Click to expand...

so I take it you agree with my statement that Infamous currently has broader appeal than console Mario?
or does it only count when it's convenient
 
L

LordGouda

Member
theprodigy said:
so I take it you agree with my statement that Infamous currently has broader appeal than console Mario?
or does it only count when it's convenient
Click to expand...

Where did this come from and how are they related in anyway?

And look at all these aggressive posts, holy crap.
 
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