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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.

I understand why matchmaking should be removed. You need to have a group with voice chat because a hard raid will be ruined by a mute 'Leroy Jenkins'.
If you let people select the raid and hit launch, then players will do this. They won't stop to read the text that says, "This is a 3 hour mission and you'll want to have voice chat on".

BUT, what's bad is that there is currently no 'easy' option for forming a group.
You either need a huge friends list, or need to randomly try to invite people to your fireteam in the tower or whatever (the latter is not a realistic option since the default is to only allow fireteam requests from friends).

IMO the game needs is some easy method of setting up a fireteam to enjoy the raid.
Some sort of LFG system is needed, that allows you to grab someone and know that they have a mic and understand what's necessary for the raid.

Honestly, I can see them patching matchmaking back in if people demand it. They'll have their cake and eat it because Bungie can say, "We'll allow matchmaking because of player demand, but don't jump in and then start complaining that your un-coordinated group found it too hard".

My biggest concern with the game is that it'll be too time-consuming to find a group. I want to jump on for an hour or two and spend it playing with DestinyGAF. I don't want to spend half my time messing around on a phone/tablet/laptop, posting on the DGAF community/bungienet thread and waiting for responses/friends requests/invites.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
I have 50 people in my friends list, but even I would probably have a hard time finding someone to play with in these raids. Expect a lot of pissed off people when the game launchers.

No one is going to the touching the raid for weeks, maybe a month+ if the Grinding required to reach it is

They have set up roadblocks, tiers for you to level up off of and then earn new stats to even get to that level to complete

Even the most HC players will need 2+ weeks to get the gear needed for you to tackle it, this is barring if said requirement might have a cap on it, then the time gets stretched

So far the PvP portion is capped to 100 marks a week, can't earn more than that, and a lot of the items that are bought using said marks are 125+ items
(Also a win = +2 marks and a loss earns you +1, so yeah a Grind right there for PvP gear so to speak)
 

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
Not entitled? I buy the game? I am entitled to the full content, whether I have friends (online) or not. The only requirement is that I have a machine capable running the game, the game itself and internet connection. Or should they also lock it away for people without the microphone plugged in?

And 10+ hours? Extensive planning? I think you are reading to much into this.... They confirmed it was more in the range of 4-5 hours. The first 10+ tries of most people will be just random trying things to figure it out and wiping many times. Let random's do that too!
And what if I just want to play just an hour the raid with some random's. Because we aren't hard-core enough we shouldn't be allowed? The Gods of Bungie apparently decided we, the common people that are casuals, aren't entitled to try it even. Insane. But apparently it is actually working for their hard-core players, who now even feel more special. They are given the gift of special content from Bungie to reach the heavens, not like other filthy casual peasants.
AGAIN; THEY ARE NOT STOPPING YOU FROM DOING THIS CONTENT IN ANY WAY. You can make a Fireteam with any five other players at any time you want. They don't need to be your friends, they can be just people you meet in the game world, they don't even need to be good at it. As long as you get them into a Fireteam, you can play the Raid. You are not being blocked out of anything.

They invited a top clan and they took 16 hours and didn't beat it. You're not going to get through the Raid in four hours in one try. Oh, and again; THEY ARE NOT BLOCKING YOU OUT OF TRYING THIS CONTENT IN ANY WAY. No, they didn't throw out matchmaking because they want to induce some elite snobbery into the Destiny community. They threw it out because they made the Raid, had it ( extensively ) play-tested and came to the conclusion that matchmaking was not an ideal fit for that type of content ( and they are right that it isn't ). They are not blocking you from playing this content in any way, they are not doing this to create some eilte snob club, they are not doing this because they don't want casuals playing it, they are doing this because they are game developers making a game and making game design decisions based on how they intend that game to be played and based on play-testing that game.

And I'm just going to add this as a disclaimer to all of my posts in this thread from now on;

DISCLAIMER: I am in no way against adding matchmaking in some form or another, but the way some of your are demanding it be added to the game out of some misguided principle that all content should be easily accessible to all players, even those it is not intended for, is quite unreasonable. Bungie did not make this decision on a whim and there is nothing inherently wrong with having content designed for a certain type of player.

there is already a checkpoint system though
But since you are tied to a Fireteam when in a Raid, one person leaving means that the entire Fireteam leaves. Thusly, everyone stops at the same checkpoint and continues from that same checkpoint in a future continuation with that Fireteam.
 

Nipo

Member
No one is going to the touching the raid for weeks, maybe a month+ if the Grinding required to reach it is

They have set up roadblocks, tiers for you to level up off of and then earn new stats to even get to that level to complete

Even the most HC players will need 2+ weeks to get the gear needed for you to tackle it, this is barring if said requirement might have a cap on it, then the time gets stretched

So far the PvP portion is capped to 100 marks a week, can't earn more than that, and a lot of the items that are bought using said marks are 125+ items
(Also a win = +2 marks and a loss earns you +1, so yeah a Grind right there for PvP gear so to speak)

I think someone will clear the raid within 2 weeks. The pull to be first in world to clear it will be strong and most MMO guilds that do those things require members to play 12-16 hours a day.

Since the average player won't play 150-200 hours in 2-3 months (2 to 4 hours a day) I would be surprised if bungie made it so you needed more than that before you could tackle the raid.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Not entitled? I buy the game? I am entitled to the full content, whether I have friends (online) or not. The only requirement is that I have a machine capable running the game, the game itself and internet connection. Or should they also lock it away for people without the microphone plugged in?

I bought FFXIV CE for $90, the first 30 days were free, but I paid roughly $80 for the next 6 months in bulk

I got to level 50 (max) within the game launching, I had BETA carryover + early access and blazed through 1 day after it went on sale to hit max level

I could have forced myself and tried to join a static and do end game content, but for that time, the Raid of FFXIV required at least an ilvl70 leveled character, I was i55
Some players just burned the midnight oil and did everything in i55 while earning their i70/i90 gear in the process to combat the DPS check the game had set up

You got to do the raid once a week, beat a Turn (5 Turns total, 4 of them being where the gear dropped), wait till next week, reset, to do it again
I didn't start Raiding almost a month and half later cause, it was necessary for me to farm the gear necessary to even do it
Also I needed to have gil (currency) to purchase things that will help me stand a better chance in said Raid

I had to advertise myself to different guilds and then get into a static or form one with other like-minded players who wanted to Raid

There was no matchmaking at that time
Most knew what the game offered and accepted that you needed to go out of your way to do these things to accomplish them
It took roughly 6 months after FFXIV that the old Turns went into matchmaking due to new turns becoming available
All the old turn got nerfs and buffs added so casual players can at least finish up the first Raid set (some still fail with a 20% buff and nerfs on the last Turn of the 1st Raid set, people don't want to practice, learn patterns, they just want insta-win and phat loot)

So yeah, getting there will be a tough task, but can we first get the community to reach said task and then ask for matchmaking to be put in if there isn't enough resources out there to achieve said goal
 

Meneses

Member
8. If matchmaking is good enough for Strikes? Why include it at all for them, too? Why not make really hard three man strikes? Why match-make for some things but then not allow it for others? They already know the benefits of mm systems, so why ignore them for end level content?

You raise valid points and this one especially makes the most sense to me.

Let's have the Raid system be like the Strikes: you can form your own, "well prepared" fireteam and do it with careful planning, or you can go in randomly if you just need a couple people to complete a group, or if you really just want to go totally random.

People would know what they are getting into by doing the raid randomly.
 

Metra

Member
You can make a Fireteam with any five other players at any time you want. They don't need to be your friends, they can be just people you meet in the game world, they don't even need to be good at it. As long as you get them into a Fireteam, you can play the Raid. You are not being blocked out of anything.
Ah, that's good, I guess. Requiring "friends-only" would be a bummer. But is there a way to know who is willing to raid, in the tower? Because, as far as I know, the only way you can "talk" to other players in destiny is through XBL/PSN's PMs.

EDIT: on a second thought, how finding "randoms" to play raid in the tower is any different than matchmaking? It's just manual matchmaking, no?

EDIT 2:
We are hoping Bungie gets it's shit together with their App and bungie.net for info/meet-ups
Also hoping the in game invite system gets either overhauled or really streamlined for players to quickly invite people
Oh, I see. Thanks.
 
I guess I'll be gaming with GAF, then! I have basically no friends that game IRL. Combined with my pretty unpredictable hours have made pick-up pub games basically the only online experience I've had for the past 6 or 7 years.

Gaf - help me!
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Ah, that's good, I guess. Requiring "friends-only" would be a bummer. But is there a way to know who is willing to raid, in the tower? Because, as far as I know, the only way you can "talk" to other players in destiny is through XBL/PSN's PMs.

We are hoping Bungie gets it's shit together with their App and bungie.net for info/meet-ups
Also hoping the in game invite system gets either overhauled or really streamlined for players to quickly invite people
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Yes, so they will be pissed off after 2 weeks instead. But the point doesn't change. What was your point?

Can we at least see how many people reach end game before causing a ruckus for matchmaking, that's what I'm trying to imply

Also you really think casual/core players will be hitting end game within 2 weeks, those same people who can't find 5 people to join up and play with
Those same people who have jobs, lives, kids, etc. in 2 weeks will have reached the last scenario this games offers...
 
Mind boggling. Any other game and gaf Would be up in arms screaming 'GIVE US THE OPTION'

'You need voice chat and teamwork to complete bungie'samazing intricate, best raids ever'

Does this mean you can only voice chat with friends??? Seriously, why all the apologies and excuses gaf. Trust me, bungie will cave on this. There's no way this content can't be completed with an experienced group of randoms.
 
While I agree they need to include easier options for creating fire teams, I really don't see the difference between trying to fill a raid group by using said system or using matchmaking. In fact if matchmaking where involved it's essentially just doing the work for you, and pulling from a pool of people that absolutely want to do the raid content. I just don't see the point in wasting people's time like that.
 
3 dances 1 salute = I want to raid

2 sits 1 dance = I want to strike

6 dances 1 sit = I need to go to the toilet

So much easier then a simple matchmaking system. Thx bungie.
 
Mind boggling. Any other game and gaf Would be up in arms screaming 'GIVE US THE OPTION'

'You need voice chat and teamwork to complete bungie'samazing intricate, best raids ever'

Does this mean you can only voice chat with friends??? Seriously, why all the apologies and excuses gaf. Trust me, bungie will cave on this. There's no way this content can't be completed with an experienced group of randoms.

Voice chat works for everyone in your fireteam, friends or not.
 

Ken

Member
I would simply like to enter a raid with randoms and actually have some fun. Coordinating 5 people for days in advance just to play an hour or two of a certain mode is not my idea of fun.

Progression raiding, especially with randoms, will probably be more painful than fun. And then there's the issue of starting at step one when you find a new set of randoms.
 
And [it will] demand of you things you’ve never even really been asked to do in a shooter before.
Like attacking one enemy for half an hour. Yeah. Right. Destiny's raid bosses were some of the most dumb and ridiculous bullet sponges I've seen in any FPS.
 

Karl Hawk

Banned
Like attacking one enemy for half an hour. Yeah. Right. Destiny's strike bosses were some of the most dumb and ridiculous bullet sponges I've seen in any FPS.

FTFY. You didn't even play a Raid, you just played a Strike. Who knows what kind of bosses they'll throw at us for the Raid.
 
Progression raiding, especially with randoms, will probably be more painful than fun. And then there's the issue of starting at step one when you find a new set of randoms.
Maybe if your team is mostly randoms, but I feel that the main argument for mm, is to fill a few empty spots or combine 2 fireteams.

PS I feel like im posting in this thread a lot, and though I am more hyped for Destiny than I have been for a game in a long long time, and finding people to raid with probably wont be that bad for me personally... I really feel like this design is an unneeded hinderance/time sink, that I feel will make it difficult for bungie to justify developing a good amount of content for, since the adoption rate could be low. Raiding was one of the main things I was looking forward to in this game, but this news really bummed me out :(
 

ObiDin

Member
Kinda sucks. Wish it was like the strikes. I was in a party with one of my friends in the beta and being auto matched with a third player to do the strike was cool.
 

BokehKing

Banned
Yes, randomly meeting up with people in the tower is essentially matchmaking, but people are leaving out key factors in that theory.


It's pre-meditated, you're getting to know them and what their goals are for that night ect ect. . If you get lumped in with a bunch of COD players.... Eh... Better example..


Think Nazi Zombies, you want to go 50+ rounds and do all the Easter Eggs, chances are you're not going to accomplish that with no mic having randoms not familiar with the content (watching it on YouTube is not the same as playing it)
 

jaosobno

Member
Can we at least see how many people reach end game before causing a ruckus for matchmaking, that's what I'm trying to imply

Also you really think casual/core players will be hitting end game within 2 weeks, those same people who can't find 5 people to join up and play with
Those same people who have jobs, lives, kids, etc. in 2 weeks will have reached the last scenario this games offers...

I think that there is a fundamental problem with posters in this thread that defend the "no PUGs" attitude. That problem is that you think of this game in the same way you would think about WoW or any other classic MMOs.

This game isn't an MMO. That much is clear. It doesn't have any form of decent social system, voice communication is lacking, you can't even text chat in the game via your mobile device (combined with Destiny app).

This is an online FPS with a "storyline" mode that will probably last no longer than 15 hours (missions are finished VERY fast, even strikes take no more than 30 minutes) and when that's done, people will probably be almost ready to start raiding.

So once again, this isn't World of Warcraft of FPS games where you take months you reach lvl 60/70/80/90 and only then have an opportunity to enter a decent raid (and even then, you have to have a certain iLvL). This game sees leveling as much less tedious task (something akin to Guild Wars 1) and wants to prepare you for max level tasks as soon as possible, so I fail to see why you think that anyone with a job/family/etc. would take long time to start raiding.

Raids themselves will probably be infinitely simpler than they are in WoW. This isn't tank/healer/DPS type of game. The only job you'll probably have in a raid is to worry about positioning and positioning is learned by dying or by having someone tell you where to be (and only person that can do that is your friend because you can't chat with anyone else).
 

DenogginizerOS

BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
I feel, much like I did in the Beta and Alpha, I will find over time people doing strikes and fire team stuff that use mics, work together, and perhaps will forge a friendship.
 

BokehKing

Banned
Kinda sucks. Wish it was like the strikes. I was in a party with one of my friends in the beta and being auto matched with a third player to do the strike was cool.
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"
 

frontieruk

Member
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"

You can, shouldn't the voice chat come out the tv unless they've opted otherwise? They just can't reply.
 

Danis

Neo Member
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"

You sound like an absolute joy to play with.
 

mitchman

Gold Member
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"

They can't hear you speaking if they have no mic? Missing mic just means they can't tell _you_ this.
 
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"
Could they require a mic to queue up for raid MM?
 

Tiops

Member
Look at the strikes though, people with no mic and you can't tell them

"shoot the legs"
"take cover"
"don't revive him yet"
"you died in the same spot 3 times in a row, go somewhere else"
"why are you two both standing next to me, spread out"
I think it took 1 hour the first time I tried that strike, because of the other 2 players that were with me. 2 seconds remaining for my respawn time, the idiot rushes to my body and try to revive me, only to receive a fucking missile directly to his head and making start all over again.

And it was the first strike in the game.


I can understand people requesting matchmaking and agree with them, the option should exist. But I would never use it.
 

MADGAME

Member
Yes, randomly meeting up with people in the tower is essentially matchmaking, but people are leaving out key factors in that theory.


It's pre-meditated, you're getting to know them and what their goals are for that night ect ect. . If you get lumped in with a bunch of COD players.... Eh... Better example..


Think Nazi Zombies, you want to go 50+ rounds and do all the Easter Eggs, chances are you're not going to accomplish that with no mic having randoms not familiar with the content (watching it on YouTube is not the same as playing it)

Except raiding is endgame content, meaning anyone queuing up to do it is high-level with gear they put time into obtaining. Chances are they are aware of the requirements, so even if they are a "bunch of COD players" as you put it they still put the time into the game to get to raid status

So baffled regarding all the comments that if you form a team by matchmaking you end up with inept chimpanzees
 

Danis

Neo Member
Honestly, there is not a single good argument here against matchmaking.

Do you really think you'll even be able to click on the Raid icon until you're level 20? For craps sakes, Bungie locked out Multiplayer with normalized weapon values until level 5!

Everyone jumping into the Raids will have high level gear. Everyone playing them will learn, within one play session, if the Raids are for them or not. Deciding to not include matchmaking just muddies the process. There will still be greifers accepting invites to Raid fireteams. There will still be poor players and lone wolves (yes, even in the GOD INSPIRED HOLY DESTINY GAF) messing up teamwork.

The ONLY thing that changes by not including it: Frustrated players wasting time tying to get a Raiding party together dancing and pointing at the tower, or searching/typing/messaging on forums.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
You guys gotta understand that a 16+ hours raid for Bungie testers translates to about an hour for people who still have thumbs attached to their hands.
 
And I thought Strikes was the same stuff. Okay, if this is not so I stand corrected.

Well if the strike is any indication of their Raid design, then we might be in for some serious bullet sponges.

On the upside, the Devils Lair raid did change between the alpha and the beta.
 
Honestly, there is not a single good argument here against matchmaking.

Do you really think you'll even be able to click on the Raid icon until you're level 20? For craps sakes, Bungie locked out Multiplayer with normalized weapon values until level 5!

Everyone jumping into the Raids will have high level gear. Everyone playing them will learn, within one play session, if the Raids are for them or not. Deciding to not include matchmaking just muddies the process. There will still be greifers accepting invites to Raid fireteams. There will still be poor players and lone wolves (yes, even in the GOD INSPIRED HOLY DESTINY GAF) messing up teamwork.

The ONLY thing that changes by not including it: Frustrated players wasting time tying to get a Raiding party together dancing and pointing at the tower, or searching/typing/messaging on forums.

Except raiding is endgame content, meaning anyone queuing up to do it is high-level with gear they put time into obtaining. Chances are they are aware of the requirements, so even if they are a "bunch of COD players" as you put it they still put the time into the game to get to raid status

So baffled regarding all the comments that if you form a team by matchmaking you end up with inept chimpanzees

Excellent points, couldn't agree more.
 

frequency

Member
PUGS in WoW were not clearing content regularly until Wrath and even then that was only after Blizzard instituted time based nerfs to the content.

I just wanted to note that Pugs were successful in WoW since Vanilla.

Full pugs were a bit rare but partial pugs (an established guild filling out the group with randoms) was a regular occurrence from the very beginning.

And I would actually use that as a counter argument to the, "they will nerf raids and make them too easy if you allow matchmaking!"

From Molten Core to Siege of Orgrimmar (Heroic), you had less than 1% of players completing the raids. The difference now is that with LFR a greater number of players can actually see the content while the top end of WoW is as (if not more) challenging and complex as it has ever been.

Perhaps that is what Destiny needs. An easier mode for matchmaking so that people can experience the content you're making. While the harder mode will be as hardcore as you want with the absolute best rewards.
(Note that Destiny already has a normal and hard mode for each mission/strike)
 

Static Jak

Member
The ONLY thing that changes by not including it: Frustrated players wasting time tying to get a Raiding party together dancing and pointing at the tower, or searching/typing/messaging on forums.
Yup, this doesn't stop randoms joining together. It just makes it so you have to do it out of the game. BAy making it a chore.

Overall, Bungies like of social features, like chat and clan integration, will just make most things more of a chore than they need to be.
 
I just wanted to note that Pugs were successful in WoW since Vanilla.

Full pugs were a bit rare but partial pugs (an established guild filling out the group with randoms) was a regular occurrence from the very beginning.

And I would actually use that as a counter argument to the, "they will nerf raids and make them too easy if you allow matchmaking!"

From Molten Core to Siege of Orgrimmar (Heroic), you had less than 1% of players completing the raids. The difference now is that with LFR a greater number of players can actually see the content while the top end of WoW is as (if not more) challenging and complex as it has ever been.

Perhaps that is what Destiny needs. An easier mode for matchmaking so that people can experience the content you're making. While the harder mode will be as hardcore as you want with the absolute best rewards.
(Note that Destiny already has a normal and hard mode for each mission/strike)

Totally agree here. As a guild leader during vanilla WoW, I had to manage three raid groups going into MC and ZG and Ony, etc. There were always people missing and had to be pugged in - typically by a few guys shouting or /fl. Some of the best players/recruits came from these PUG guys. They were skilled and learned the fights quickly, they just didn't have a home or large /fl.

And that last paragraph, yeah I'm all for that!
 

Homeboyd

Member
Honestly, there is not a single good argument here against matchmaking.

Do you really think you'll even be able to click on the Raid icon until you're level 20? For craps sakes, Bungie locked out Multiplayer with normalized weapon values until level 5!

Everyone jumping into the Raids will have high level gear. Everyone playing them will learn, within one play session, if the Raids are for them or not. Deciding to not include matchmaking just muddies the process. There will still be greifers accepting invites to Raid fireteams. There will still be poor players and lone wolves (yes, even in the GOD INSPIRED HOLY DESTINY GAF) messing up teamwork.

The ONLY thing that changes by not including it: Frustrated players wasting time tying to get a Raiding party together dancing and pointing at the tower, or searching/typing/messaging on forums.
I suppose if you knew the activities/challenges required to complete the raid, then I'd believe you were speaking from a point of authority on the matter and that what you were saying is true. Since you don't know, I can't say what you're saying is accurate.

Based on what I've seen and read from Luke, the raids aren't going to be simple *aim and shoot* like a lot of the activities have been up until that point (i.e. how they were able to rank up to level 20, get better gear, etc...). It seems the "puzzles" associated with completing these raids, along with having no sort of waypoints/instructions on what to do next, will require everyone to communicate and work together. It's not a matter of simple skill and how well you can aim and take down enemies or what kind of gear you brought along.

My point; what if in order to open the next door to get to the next phase requires all 6 players to stand at 6 different points in a room and shoot an object? The guys you brought with you, on your fireteam (let's say there's 5 of you), that have mics, can brainstorm and come up with solutions and maybe eventually figure it out. "Oh hey, what are these weird pillars sticking up out of the ground?? I noticed there's six of them... what if we all go stand on them at the same time and see what happens?" You go take point and meanwhile, the 6th dude, who doesn't have a mic and is jamming Green Day in the background and stuffing his face with Cheetos while you guys try to figure out what to do, isn't paying attention and can't hear you. Or even if he could hear you, you'd have to explain what you're doing to him, without him being able to talk back, and hope he understands and follows through (and consider you'd have to do this EVERY TIME your faced with one of these puzzles, which I'm sure will be more complex than I'm describing).

In the raid video, they show the raid team jumping on pillars at the same time while they disappear below. How many times would it take for the 5 of you to start jumping only to realize your buddy you picked up in matchmaking has no idea what's going on and is sitting back at the start with his thumb up his ass b/c he has no idea what you guys are doing before you got frustrated? So you start over. Again and again.

I know this is extreme, and like you guys are saying, not all people you pick up in matchmaking are going to be complete morons... I understand that. But they're requiring that you bring along 6 people that you know and WILL communicate and WILL be team players to complete these tasks. You guys saying, "well I'll just have to go find random people in the tower, or on GAF, to come with me... and that's just the same thing as matchmaking!" True, it is... except they don't want you doing that either! Yes, you can do it that way... i.e. you can access the raid by picking up randoms and circumvent the "only bring your friends" requirement, but again, this is not what they want you doing. Bring along people with mics, who also have the gear/stats needed (which I agree, most people at this point will have anyways, MM or not), who you know will follow along with the plan and will stick around to finish the job.

It sounds like Luke and his team who built this raid put a lot of thought and careful consideration into how they want you to complete these challenges and they know if you don't put likewise careful considerable effort into forming worthwhile teams to complete them, you're gunna french fry when you should've pizza'd and you're going to have a bad time. They don't want your first few experiences with the raids to be ruined by attempting them this way. Pick up a good team, communicate, work towards a common goal, and if you fail, get together and figure out what went wrong and try again. Much easier to do that with people you know rather than random guys you pick up in the tower or on some forum somewhere that may or may not be interested in being a "team player" or even have the ability to communicate to begin with.

That's it. That's the best I can do to try and explain why I think they did it this way.
 

StUnNeR H2K

Member
I see a lot of people blowing up about this decision (especially on the Bungie.net forums).

I think people are overreacting for one, but at the same time at least Bungie is giving everyone a heads up to plan your fireteam teammates now instead of everyone learning about it after release.

Personally I think this is a great decision. Coming from a history of hardcore raiding in WoW the game needs to have something that players have to work for, and that isn't as easy as queuing up for free loot. Finding other players to play with and creating a relationship with them is part of that. This will make the games social environment much better in that players will have to communicate in order to achieve some of the higher end gear/loot.

Hopefully the game can integrate the Clan system in-game so it becomes easier to make friends to eventually team up with for raid content. I look forward to doing this myself. Most of my friends I have on XBL today are ones I met playing Halo 2, or through the old clan system in Halo 2 days.
 

tranciful

Member
Perhaps that is what Destiny needs. An easier mode for matchmaking so that people can experience the content you're making. While the harder mode will be as hardcore as you want with the absolute best rewards.
(Note that Destiny already has a normal and hard mode for each mission/strike)

Look at this:
Not entitled? I buy the game? I am entitled to the full content, whether I have friends (online) or not. The only requirement is that I have a machine capable running the game, the game itself and internet connection. Or should they also lock it away for people without the microphone plugged in?

They'd still whine about not being able to get the gear because "wah wah I don't have friends/time/skill but I paid for this content so I should get it anyway." It's insane. Even with the current plans, the content isn't locked away in any way -- it just has higher requirements. They're simply not willing to meet those requirements and they expect the developers to dumb it down and cater to their needs. Don't have friends? Find friends! Play a strike mission (with matchmaking) and if you run into somebody who you did well with, send them a fucking message and see if they'd be down for raiding. Wow so hard.

What will probably end up happening is that future Destiny expansions will add more powerful gear, effectively lowering the difficulty of older raids allowing more casual players to complete them. And then they'll keep bitching about the new high end content that they don't meet the friend/time/skill requirements for and still feel entitled to it.
 
Personally I think this is a great decision. Coming from a history of hardcore raiding in WoW the game needs to have something that players have to work for, and that isn't as easy as queuing up for free loot. Finding other players to play with and creating a relationship with them is part of that. This will make the games social environment much better in that players will have to communicate in order to achieve some of the higher end gear/loot.
Why cant that be done through matchmaking? I've already made 2 friends being match-made in the strike, no reason the same cant be said for the raid. This design seems elitist imo, not wanting to streamline a process is boggling to me.
 

BokehKing

Banned
Except raiding is endgame content, meaning anyone queuing up to do it is high-level with gear they put time into obtaining. Chances are they are aware of the requirements, so even if they are a "bunch of COD players" as you put it they still put the time into the game to get to raid status

So baffled regarding all the comments that if you form a team by matchmaking you end up with inept chimpanzees
It comes from years of raiding in Warcraft and seeing why it doesn't work


Don't get me wrong, there will be early mornings/nights were I wish there was a matchmaking for it... But sadly I understand all too well this is for the best
 

BokehKing

Banned
They can't hear you speaking if they have no mic? Missing mic just means they can't tell _you_ this.
The beta you were defaulted to 'friends only'
You would have to change that setting to public
Not many people knew that
I personally think Bungie should default it to public (hence why you couldn't invite strangers into your fire team 95% of the time)
 

tranciful

Member
Why cant that be done through matchmaking? I've already made 2 friends being match-made in the strike, no reason the same cant be said for the raid. This design seems elitist imo, not wanting to streamline a process is boggling to me.

The strikes are designed to be beaten with randoms. The raids aren't, so matchmaking would result in people spending time forming parties that would fail and people would think the game is broken -- pairing matchmaking with content that isn't tuned for matchmaking would be poor design, so Bungie didn't pair matchmaking with raids. There you go -- no more mind boggling.
 

BokehKing

Banned
You sound like an absolute joy to play with.
I am, because I will tell you
'that's a poor spot to stand in, try standing there instead'


Or

'no no no don't revive me and risk us losing the mission, hide out for 10 seconds and wait until we revive'

Or sometimes I'm out of ammo and the only way to get more ammo is to die and revive, I don't want to be revived with zero ammo
 
It comes from years of raiding in Warcraft and seeing why it doesn't work


Don't get me wrong, there will be early mornings/nights were I wish there was a matchmaking for it... But sadly I understand all too well this is for the best
Im not sure its fair to really compare this to WoW raiding, though obviously we should all reserve judgment until the content is out. There are two major differences already that make this seem much more fit for mm than old school wow raiding.

1. Team size, 6 as compared to 25-50 is much more manageable, and much easier to get people on the same page.

2. The holy triumvirate doesn't exists in destiny, and on the surface seems like the coordination required wont be as involving, but maybe not based on the design. Obviously wait and see on this.

Im not 100% MM is right the way it currently is, but there has to be something similar in place to encourage players to try it, otherwise its dead in the water, and future raid content becomes much less likely.
 
The strikes are designed to be beaten with randoms. The raids aren't, so matchmaking would result in people spending time forming parties that would fail and people would think the game is broken -- pairing matchmaking with content that isn't tuned for matchmaking would be poor design. There you go -- no more mind boggling.
The point I was making was in reference to forming friendships in the game. This can be done with matchmaking, in strikes, or raids.
 
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