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Nintendo's Super Smash Bros. for 3DS National Open Tournament
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
I think that would be a bit much.
Really, my opinion is just that the Rosalina player should have to think about Luma. Do you want Luma to be your meatshield? Okay, but when it gets KO'd that means you are going to be punished by not having Luma for a while (more than 8 seconds for sure). Do you want to send it out to do attacks? Okay, but it's not going to take damage for you. As it is, Luma reliably does both and within the rules of Smash I think that's a bit much.
Rosalina is a completely competent character even without Luma, dramatically more than Popo, who didn't get Nana back until he lost his stock. Even 15 seconds wouldn't severely hurt her. 20 wouldn't be unfair.
This.
Wii U demo release tonight?
Wait what?
Wait what?
that's definitely not happening lmao
theprodigy
Member
I mean, Dabuz was probably the best player in the field going into this tournament, so.....lol
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'd like to see more matches with rosalina on more normal competitive stages. I think the lack of extra platforms on Omega stages makes it harder to use mobility to counter her zoning.
Ragingnight
Member
Again, the game hasn't been out long so people still need to figure it out I agree but from watching this tourney the Luma did not seem gone for long. Granted, this Mario did not try to disable Luma much which may have been the issue. 8 secs is way to short considering the toolset that Rosalina has though. I also don't think Rosalina recovery was what people were having trouble containing either. Rosalina without Luma isn't worthless which is the main issue as well.
puppets characters being worthless without their puppets is bad design. They should still be able to put up a fight, but have to struggle for it. For example, when you lose all your persona cards as a persona reliant character, it hinders you hard for those 10-15 secs because the other player still has all their tools, while your primary tool and stength is gone. But that doesn't mean they are straight up free kills, and they shouldn't be.
I think that would be a bit much.
Really, my opinion is just that the Rosalina player should have to think about Luma. Do you want Luma to be your meatshield? Okay, but when it gets KO'd that means you are going to be punished by not having Luma for a while (more than 8 seconds for sure). Do you want to send it out to do attacks? Okay, but it's not going to take damage for you. As it is, Luma reliably does both and within the rules of Smash I think that's a bit much.
Rosalina is a completely competent character even without Luma, dramatically more than Popo, who didn't get Nana back until he lost his stock. Even 15 seconds wouldn't severely hurt her. 20 wouldn't be unfair (in Melee it might, but Smash 4 stocks last a lot longer).
She isn't a completely competent character. Thats like saying relius, carl, yukiko, elizabeth and etc are competent without their puppets. Yes they still have access to a good amount of moves, but they are severely hindered when they do not have access to their puppet in comparison to the cast. Rosa can't zone, which is her primary strength without luma.
yeah.
would make more sense if she takes a 50% or so damage decrease or something for those 8 seconds.
It's interesting that unlike all the other new characters in this game with different pros and cons, i can't really think of any cons of Rosalina.
she's fine herself, and luuma just makes her great.
Her cons is that she is reliant on luma. If she never had luma, she would be mediocre at best.
taking more damage for the time that luma isn't on the field is not bad either but 50% more damage would be too much. Maybe 35% more.
The big things that I dislike about the luma design is that luma can still hit you when rosalina is getting hit. That is completely dumbbbbb in 1v1. Fair in FFA and maybe 2v2.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
She isn't a completely competent character. Thats like saying relius, carl, yukiko, elizabeth and etc are competent without their puppets. Yes they still have access to a good amount of moves, but they are severely hindered when they do not have access to their puppet in comparison to the cast. Rosa can't zone, which is her primary strength without luma.
She has access to all her moves except two, one of which just moves Luma around. There were several matches just in this tournament where Rosalina players (including Dabuz) barely even used Luma, regularly just letting it fall off the stage and die since it would respawn so quickly.
If she was a character that was weak outside of zoning I'd agree, but that's just not the case. She has strong attacks with disjointed hitboxes and multiple KO options. She is absolutely competent. Luma makes her better, and that's okay, but the player should have to think about Luma and what it's doing. Not just ignore it until they need it.
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Little Mac
Rosalina
So who's next for the "nerf pls" line up? FWIW, I feel like people are knee jerking a tad here. Rosalina does have some nutty things that I think should get addressed (free breaks out of grabs with Luma nearby, knockback power of both Rosa and Luma, Luma acting independently if Rosalina is in stun [from a shield break most prominently]) but I also feel as though a large part of her "superiority" is just because of people being unfamiliar with that character play style in a Smash environment. After having a long discussion with my brother wherein I didn't know what to say to suggest how to balance her, I feel as though the most I could reasonably agree with was an increase in time between Luma spawns but his suggestion of a 20 second interval with no Luma just doesn't sit with me right at all. That's far too long a period to be without tools for in any fighting game. While his argument was that it'd force Rosa players to be more protective of their Lumas, I feel as though it'd create a situation for the RosaLuma players that would only get worse over time as people learned how to fight her and what characters fight her best (protip: kill Luma; characters that get Luma out quick will shine in that matchup).
Bowser
Little Mac
Rosalina
So who's next for the "nerf pls" line up? FWIW, I feel like people are knee jerking a tad here. Rosalina does have some nutty things that I think should get addressed (free breaks out of grabs with Luma nearby, knockback power of both Rosa and Luma, Luma acting independently if Rosalina is in stun [from a shield break most prominently]) but I also feel as though a large part of her "superiority" is just because of people being unfamiliar with that character play style in a Smash environment. After having a long discussion with my brother wherein I didn't know what to say to suggest how to balance her, I feel as though the most I could reasonably agree with was an increase in time between Luma spawns but his suggestion of a 20 second interval with no Luma just doesn't sit with me right at all. That's far too long a period to be without tools for in any fighting game. While his argument was that it'd force Rosa players to be more protective of their Lumas, I feel as though it'd create a situation for the RosaLuma players that would only get worse over time as people learned how to fight her and what characters fight her best (protip: kill Luma; characters that get Luma out quick will shine in that matchup).
Ragingnight
Member
She has access to all her moves except two, one of which just moves Luma around. There were several matches just in this tournament where a Rosalina player barely even used Luma, regularly just letting it fall off the stage and die since it would respawn so quickly.
If she was a character that was weak outside of zoning I'd agree, but that's just not the case. She has strong attacks with disjointed hitboxes and multiple KO options. She is absolutely competent. Luma makes her better, and that's okay, but the player should have to think about Luma and what it's doing. Not just ignore it until they need it.
err her moving luma also acts as a projectile. Also we do not know how good these players are. The game hasn't been even a month and you are saying she is strong outside zoning. This is literally the sentinel issue in mvc3
1) omg he has armor
2) his zoning is so good with spit, drones and HSF
3) his rushdown is great because of the wave dash
4) OMG he has a command grab, on top of an armored launcher and low
5) omg he has 1.3 million hp
6) omg he has invincible in one of his supers.
7) omg he does so much damage and kills people in 5 hits in XF3!
The game isn't even out on the wii-u, and when it does, mobility characters will only get better due to controls.
We don't know the skill caliber of the players. Most smashers thought Dabuz was going to win on default due to skills from previous games alone.
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Little Mac
Rosalina
So who's next for the "nerf pls" line up? FWIW, I feel like people are knee jerking a tad here. Rosalina does have some nutty things that I think should get addressed (free breaks out of grabs with Luma nearby, knockback power of both Rosa and Luma, Luma acting independently if Rosalina is in stun [from a shield break most prominently]) but I also feel as though a large part of her "superiority" is just because of people being unfamiliar with that character play style in a Smash environment. After having a long discussion with my brother wherein I didn't know what to say to suggest how to balance her, I feel as though the most I could reasonably agree with was an increase in time between Luma spawns but his suggestion of a 20 second interval with no Luma just doesn't sit with me right at all. That's far too long a period to be without tools for in any fighting game. While his argument was that it'd force Rosa players to be more protective of their Lumas, I feel as though it'd create a situation for the RosaLuma players that would only get worse over time as people learned how to fight her and what characters fight her best (protip: kill Luma; characters that get Luma out quick will shine in that matchup).
I agree with all of this. I think the stuff that is "OP" are little nuances here and there. The biggest advantage that she has is that she is a new archetype character in smash. She was always going to smash face in 1v1 to people that are new to puppet characters. Its the same shit in most fighting games when people fight their first puppet character
To just the bolded; She is a competent character without luma for about 8 secs and if she is truly reliant on luma, the short respawn time for luma would never show it.
I have no idea what you are trying to say outside "nu uh I don't agree!" The game just came out, the character archetype is new to the series, and the game is on a system where mobility based characters are handicapped. Are we really talking about balance issues this far in outside of bugs and exploits? The same argument that you used has been used for other characters and none of them were "op"
puppets characters being worthless without their puppets is bad design. They should still be able to put up a fight, but have to struggle for it. For example, when you lose all your persona cards as a persona reliant character, it hinders you hard for those 10-15 secs because the other player still has all their tools, while your primary tool and stength is gone. But that doesn't mean they are straight up free kills, and they shouldn't be.
She isn't a completely competent character. Thats like saying relius, carl, yukiko, elizabeth and etc are competent without their puppets. Yes they still have access to a good amount of moves, but they are severely hindered when they do not have access to their puppet in comparison to the cast. Rosa can't zone, which is her primary strength without luma.
Her cons is that she is reliant on luma. If she never had luma, she would be mediocre at best.
taking more damage for the time that luma isn't on the field is not bad either but 50% more damage would be too much. Maybe 35% more.
The big things that I dislike about the luma design is that luma can still hit you when rosalina is getting hit. That is completely dumbbbbb in 1v1. Fair in FFA and maybe 2v2.
To just the bolded; She is a competent character without luma for about 8 secs and if she is truly reliant on luma, the short respawn time for luma would never show it.
What the hell is going on in here? Are people saying Rosa&Luma are broken?
Don't you know different is always broken?
I'm just fucking around. RosaLuma is a fine archetype with one or two inconsistencies at the most.
SuperBowser
Member
I think rosalina had some very good matchups for the tournament. If you put her against rushdown and spam-happy characters, it might be much more difficult for her. People like greninja, sheik and bowser jr. are probably more favourable.
But either way, she's obviously a strong character with incredible defensive options at the moment.
But either way, she's obviously a strong character with incredible defensive options at the moment.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
What the hell is going on in here? Are people saying Rosa&Luma are broken?
Broken is a bit of a strong word, I just think Luma is a bit too reliable even when the player isn't worry about what's happening to it. I wouldn't change anything else about the character.
I think rosalina had some very good matchups for the tournament. If you put her against rushdown and spam-happy characters, it might be much more difficult for her. People like greninja, sheik and bowser jr. are probably more favourable.
But either way, she's obviously a strong character with incredible defensive options at the moment.
I actually feel like Bowser, Shiek, & Greninja are the easiest trio to deal with her. Little Mac is a dark horse too because while most think "oh God, I'd be eaten alive", anything Mac does = dead Luma thanks to armor and his high damage/knockback leading to a neutered Rosalina vs. Mac. Keep in mind that hitting Luma also builds Mac's attack gauge.
I'd love to hear more about Bowser Jr. though.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
How does streaming a handheld work?
Sooooo who won?
Dabuz as Rosalina.
I have no idea what you are trying to say outside "nu uh I don't agree!" The game just came out, the character archetype is new to the series, and the game is on a system where mobility based characters are handicapped. Are we really talking about balance issues this far in outside of bugs and exploits? The same argument that you used has been used for other characters and none of them were "op"
Your right, I don't agree but in any other smash bros game I would. In smash 4 we have extend blast zones, great recoveries for all characters(sorry little mac), and vectoring. My complaint is that an 8 sec respawn is too short for a puppet character in smash 4 and the amount of time used, for any character that can't hit hard enough, to get rid of luma is disproportional to the respawn time.
I have no problems with the archetype just how it's implemented. It is just that, as people have stated in this thread already, luma can be used as a throwaway item, with little repercussions to losing it.
Edit:
I should mention that I don't think Rosaluma is broken.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
How does streaming a handheld work?
Typically a modded 3DS. This being Nintendo, they probably just had dev kit units with video output or something.
sixteen-bit
Member
How does streaming a handheld work?
steady camera
Ragingnight
Member
Your right, I don't agree but in any other smash bros game I would. In smash 4 we have extend blast zones, great recoveries for all characters(sorry little mac), and vectoring. My complaint is that an 8 sec respawn is too short for a puppet character in smash 4 and the amount of time used, for any character that can't hit hard enough, to get rid of luma is disproportional to the respawn time.
I have no problems with the archetype just how it's implemented. It is just that, as people have stated in this thread already, luma can be used as a throwaway item, with little repercussions to losing it.
Edit:
I should mention that I don't think Rosaluma is broken.
bleh none of my response saved.
basically TL;DR version
We haven't seen high level play, we don't know if luma is a throwaway item.
We won't see high level play for atleast a few months.
We should not ask for balance changes until we see high level play and consistent results
Even HDR akuma, metaknight were never banned initially.
Basically, let it rock and see how things end up in 2-3 months. We need to see the wii-u version, where mobility based characters only get better. Where the controller does not handicap players.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Looks like I missed it. Where can I catch a stream?
bleh none of my response saved.
basically TL;DR version
We haven't seen high level play, we don't know if luma is a throwaway item.
We won't see high level play for atleast a few months.
We should not ask for balance changes until we see high level play and consistent results
Even HDR akuma, metaknight were never banned initially.
Basically, let it rock and see how things end up in 2-3 months. We need to see the wii-u version, where mobility based characters only get better. Where the controller does not handicap players.
Ok, I see your point.
Why would you do that?
Member
Looks like I missed it. Where can I catch a stream?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRKkGQqyRe4
I missed it too, so I'm going to give it a watch. Any highlights?
They just put up a highlight video for those who don't want to watch 4 hours worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEodTAPBOjE&hd=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEodTAPBOjE&hd=1
sixteen-bit
Member
They just put up a highlight video for those who don't want to watch 4 hours worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEodTAPBOjE&hd=1
Thanks. I remember the live event had really long breaks between matches.