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I prefer the original DKC trilogy to Retro's revival

TF is pretty overrated if you ask me. It did nothing new and left me with the feeling of a game that simply didn't need to be made.

Yeah. I mean it was good. Because DKCR was great, so some rehash automatically is good too. But it's also a redundant rehash, still (hence it became an ultra bomba, shocking).
Even Prime had much bigger jumps. Even some generic dark/light world mechanic was more original than TF and with new hardware, they at least made use of the Wiimote in Prime 3. Meanwhile, TF did nothing new.

Obviously, the jump between DKC1 and 2 was also significantly bigger (admittedly, also because DKC1 had lots to improve) and you didn't even need to buy new hardware for it...
 

chadboban

Member
I don't get the "sterile" "soulless" or "lacking atmosphere" complaints about the Retro games, especially Tropical Freeze. I mean sure they may not be your cup of tea but you can't play a level like Grassland Groove then look at me with a straight face and tell me that was soulless.
 

Astral Dog

Member
TF is pretty overrated if you ask me. It did nothing new and left me with the feeling of a game that simply didn't need to be made.

It needed to be made simply for the glorious return of David Wise.
I realize this is a very unpopular opinion, but I can't be the only one who feels this way.

.

Op you monster.

Nah, the atmosphere is better on the originals, true, i love the melancholic themes and darker levels, but the those games have aged to me, they feel tedious and very difficult to play in a way Retro' s games don' t, everybody says Returns and Tropical Freeze are too hard, but i found them just right except for the stupid rocket and car levels.

Retro' s games also have atmosphere, in part thanks to the music of David Wise, and some of the levels specially, like the burning forest, the frozen levels, the village at world 2, the underwater levels etc.

In the end Retro' s games aren' t trying to be SNES DKC, they are their own thing, for better or worse.
Edit: oh i remember something you said in the ALBW thread, but to have Link use the ToP it would need to be a very different game to make it justice.
 

Dizzy

Banned
And so you should. Retro's DK games were really dull IMO. I had a lot more fun with the original games on VC.
 

NotLiquid

Member
DKCTF = DKC2 > DKC > DKCR > DKC3

DKC2 mostly stands so high to me on a nostalgic level, but it did elevate the DKC formula in a good way by adapting the levels in a much better way, with superior environments, bonus levels and a fantastic progression.

That said, something that Tropical Freeze gets right on so many levels is feeling like a legitimate update (to the DKC series) and a sequel (to Returns). What I feel Retro took into account most of all into the new series, which makes the biggest change, is that they wholly account Rare's original mechanics as integral. The level designs are shaped around them this time around and feel a lot more calculated and deliberate, in contrast to the original trilogy's pre-rendered levels which was compensating a lot of the time for possibly inaccurate physics.

Tropical Freeze is about everything I could have hoped a modern day DKC could be. Returns felt like it was too caught up into being a homage to the original trilogy and having some mostly generic tropes to add onto the formula. Tropical Freeze is the true evolution in contrast, it makes Returns look archaic in comparison. There's an abundance of fresh new ideas for worlds, game play gimmicks, progression, amazing bosses and even bringing David Wise back felt like a conscious attempt in not necessarily recreating the games of old but evoking the spirit of them while pushing them to greater, newer things.

You can't tell me DKCTF doesn't ooze atmosphere and even though I admit that the original trilogy had a distinct vibe to it, it doesn't mean that the newer games don't have something unique to them either. It's not just evoked through the silhouette levels as some people like to bring up, it's evoked through the game play. World 6-6 for example; which is one of the penultimate levels of the game. This is one of my favorite platforming levels of all time. The entire atmosphere isn't just strengthened through the graphics; it's because of the game play, the ever-shifting landscape, the continuing culmination of the adventure and the feeling that you're constantly in control, with each and every shift in the terrain not forcing you into performing scripted actions but allowing you to continue your climb at a faster pace still determined by the physics of the game. It's made all the better knowing that the final world is a bit of a "reprise" world at a grand scale, your home and place of familiarity being overrun. It's kind of like the intense buildup during the final levels of K. Rool's Keep in DKC2, and much like DKC2 provided a greater sense of narrative progression to it's predecessor with a greater ultimate goal in mind, DKCTF does the same to Returns.

And you can't tell me that World 3-1 isn't absolutely fucking amazing. That savannah atmosphere and parade is incredible.
 
I don't get the "sterile" "soulless" or "lacking atmosphere" complaints about the Retro games, especially Tropical Freeze. I mean sure they may not be your cup of tea but you can't play a level like Grassland Groove then look at me with a straight face and tell me that was soulless.

People can't articulate that the style is different and not to their tastes. The Retro DKC titles have a lot of personality.
 

Gartooth

Member
Until Tropical Freeze I would have agreed with you OP. Since then though, I think the Retro games have managed to edge out the original trilogy. Their mechanics and level design are in a class of their own, and by bringing David Wise back TF managed to have what I think is the best soundtrack in the series. I lean towards the Rare games in terms of environment and character designs, and I still wish they would've been brought into the fold (particularly animal buddies) but at the same time I think Retro has done a fantastic job. The style of the game is a bit more over the top, but they nailed the look regardless of my preference. The environments and levels are intertwined with each other to a degree that I've never seen in a 2D platformer, and it impresses me every time I play the game.
 

chadboban

Member
I totally agree. My ranking is DKC2 > DKC3 > TF > Returns > DKC1

The new games feel sterile, like the new Mario games. There's no consistent theme really, it's just generic staples like fire world, water, ice etc. I thought they would try something different in TF, but the the whole freeze thing isn't really prevalent in the game nor is it compelling. It feels like a retread of DKCR (and by extension DKC1, again.) thematically and artistically, but the level design is pretty good.

What exactly was the "consistent theme" of DKC2 exactly? You mean that game where can take you from a pirate ship, to a volcano then to a swamp followed by visit to amusement park, then to a haunted forest then to a ice place which leads to a castle then a trip on an airship. All of which have worlds that feel out of place in each of them like Bramble Scramble is in the amusement park for some reason. It's one of my all time favorite games but I wouldn't exactly call it's theme's consistent.

Tropical Freeze's actually get's "consistency" a lot better than the previous games that's for sure. Look at the Bright Savannah world. Every single level in that world is based on savannah and Africa-like landscapes. The flora and the fauna also resemble their African variants, such as the baobab tree and fruits, and the Buffaloafer enemy being based off the African buffalo. Some of the levels are based on natural disasters that would occur in a savannah too, like tornadoes and wildfire.

Level 1
12915271455_4850267661_o.jpg
Level 2
Level 3
Level 4
Level 5

And Tropical Freeze should never be compared to the "New" Mario games, NEVER.
 
A neat little extra bit of visual consistency with Bright Savannah that I'm reminded of by those images is the time of day reflected in the worlds stage progression, from Grassland Groove to Twilight Terror you go from dawn, midday, a storm, the evening and as a bonus the aftermath of the storm (If I'm not mistaken lightning can cause wildfires), then twilight/night and back around to the day again for the various splinter stages afterwards depending on the exit you took.
Autumn Heights has something similar going on albeit on a smaller scale, it's a great little touch that Returns and DKC1 touched on a few times but neither followed through quite like this.
 
I realize this is a very unpopular opinion, but I can't be the only one who feels this way.

When I heard DKC was coming back, and being made by Retro studios, I was ecstatic. I'm a huge fan of the first three games. When I finally got around to playing Returns, and then later, Tropical Freeze, something about the games didn't click with me the same way DKC did. I think the main thing is the atmosphere - in the original three games, the art style and atmosphere was very different. It was more realistic, more oppressive, and less "goofy". The cartoony look and feel of DKCR and TF is very off putting.

Now, I realize Retro did a lot of things right, and did them very well:

-Mechanically, the new games are much more advanced and control more tightly, boss fights are much more involved

-Attention to detail is superb and you can tell the games were crafted with love for the material (seeing other stages in the background is my personal favorite example of this)

-Added their own little quirks, such as the silhouette levels

-Music in Tropical Freeze may be the best in the series

But despite all this, when I look at each set of games and judge them subjectively by the time period and environment that they were released in, I end up preferring the originals. Does anyone else agree with me, and if so, why?

Edit: I realize it's strange to argue for an opinion by defending the games I like less, but I don't dislike Returns or Tropical Freeze. And I can't put my finger on the exact reason I prefer the originals, besides that they were "more enjoyable for their time" and that the art style and atmosphere seemed more appealing.
I think you may have a bit of child nostalgia kicking in, but I see your points. As someone who played the living hell out of DK and still own all of them on their respective systems, I find that TF serves as a love letter pushing the series in a different direction (Different is good). In my opinion Tropical Freeze is a love letter to the kids that played it when it was released and built by people who feel the same passion we do.

Don't worry according to your post you won't finish it anyways... :p http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=934018
 
Tropical Freeze lets you beat up hundreds of owls, that's something it will always have over Rare's trilogy

What I'm inferring from this is that whippersnapper JC didn't deal too well with the Karbines/Owls in DKC3's Fireball Frenzy, hiding in the background, untouchable by Kong hands.
Now at long last Retro have granted the boyhood dream of revengeance with spiritual successors in TF being used as bounce fodder for an entire Temple stage, what a heart warming story.
 
Retro's DK do not have atmosphere they have themes which are two completely different things.
Absolutely disagreed, at least in terms of Tropical Freeze.

Nocturnowl has mentioned this example already but it cannot be brought up enough. In world 2, there's an owl civilisation all scattered and attached across a mountain. Said mountain is only viewed from a far in the first level of the world, but with each level as you ascend higher up the mountains, you're also getting closer and closer to the owls' mountain, which is noticeable from the background. Eventually you'll end up in their territory, in which the platforming consists of vines attached to the owls' buildings suspended in the skies (with this track no less). You end up meeting their leader on the top of the mountain, fittingly as the world's boss fight. That sense of progress coupled with the superb art direction made the whole experience atmospheric.

 

Socreges

Banned
What I'm inferring from this is that whippersnapper JC didn't deal too well with the Karbines/Owls in DKC3's Fireball Frenzy, hiding in the background, untouchable by Kong hands.
Now at long last Retro have granted the boyhood dream of revengeance with spiritual successors in TF being used as bounce fodder for an entire Temple stage, what a heart warming story.
This is a great post for a variety of reasons.
 

Mory Dunz

Member
What exactly was the "consistent theme" of DKC2 exactly? You mean that game where can take you from a pirate ship, to a volcano then to a swamp followed by visit to amusement park, then to a haunted forest then to a ice place which leads to a castle then a trip on an airship. All of which have worlds that feel out of place in each of them like Bramble Scramble is in the amusement park for some reason. It's one of my all time favorite games but I wouldn't exactly call it's theme's consistent.

Tropical Freeze's actually get's "consistency" a lot better than the previous games that's for sure. Look at the Bright Savannah world. Every single level in that world is based on savannah and Africa-like landscapes. The flora and the fauna also resemble their African variants, such as the baobab tree and fruits, and the Buffaloafer enemy being based off the African buffalo. Some of the levels are based on natural disasters that would occur in a savannah too, like tornadoes and wildfire.

Level 1

Level 2

Level 3

Level 4

Level 5


And Tropical Freeze should never be compared to the "New" Mario games, NEVER.

Welp, you just destroyed that argument.
 

Socreges

Banned
I've mentioned this before, and I'll mention it again because it makes a lot of sense to me:

The character::screen ratio of the Rare trilogy was a necessity due to limited technology and while it featured game play compromises (in retrospective comparison to Retro's DKC) it also allowed for a more oppressive and immersive experience as you felt more intimately connected to the environment. Retro's DKC, meanwhile, is pulled back which allows for more/better platforming opportunities, but also means the player will feel relatively disconnected from the experience.

Also, nostalgia.

This isn't to say I don't agree that DKC2 is darker with moodier music on average.
 
I also had DKC2 as my favorite DK for the longest time. I loved it's gameplay being more nimble due to it's characters and it's atmosphere was unmatched. However it has taken so many years but I think Tropical Freeze finally surpassed it.

The controls and level design in DKCTF are just god like, they are tailored both to normal speed and rolling+running speed in a way that must have been insanely hard to test. I also believe the atmosphere matches even DKC2. It doesn't have as dark or gloomy levels, but what it goes for it nails perfectly. The underwater levels are beautiful.

I truly hope that Retro is allowed to finish out the trilogy with one last entry, regardless of people complaining they are working on 'fucking donkey kong'. And bring the Kremlings back please.
 

trixx

Member
Absolutely disagreed, at least in terms of Tropical Freeze.

Nocturnowl has mentioned this example already but it cannot be brought up enough. In world 2, there's an owl civilisation all scattered and attached across a mountain. Said mountain is only viewed from a far in the first level of the world, but with each level as you ascend higher up the mountains, you're also getting closer and closer to the owls' mountain, which is noticeable from the background. Eventually you'll end up in their territory, in which the platforming consists of vines attached to the owls' buildings suspended in the skies (with this track no less). You end up meeting their leader on the top of the mountain, fittingly as the world's boss fight. That sense of progress coupled with the superb art direction made the whole experience atmospheric.

good example, My ranking TF>DKC2>DKCR>DKC3>DKC1. I'm gonna have to replay 2, hopefully the trilogy is out on e-shop shoon
 

me0wish

Member
TF is my favorite 2d platformer of all time, I hope that Retro will one day make DKCR3 with dark clayish graphics and atmosphere. I love the atmosphere in TF, but it doesn't feel like a DKC game.
 
I think its fine to be that way, especially when you're so level headed about it and display an in depth understanding of new games in your points.

Nothing beats Tropical Freeze for me though. I loved the old games in their day, especially 2, but right now TF is feast for the senses and a delight to control. I was really upset when I learned Retro was making another DK instead of a Metroid game, now I'm hoping for a Donkey Kong trilogy from them.
 

SegaShack

Member
I do too. The originals are much better and offer more variety for the bonus stages, as well as gameplay with all the animals. Controls were also much tighter in the trilogy. The environments also felt a lot more atmospheric. I still like the Returns games, but the originals are just better in so many aspects.
 
Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

In whole, TF > Returns > 2 = 3 > 1 > 64. You could break it up into individual criteria to try and shift it around a bit, but the only one that can possibly put the original games above TF would be the art style, and even then only 2 & 3 (and it'd still be pretty close). Tropical Freeze and Returns blow the others out of the water in regards to gameplay - the most important aspect by far - and TF has the greatest soundtrack in the series.
 
Just like with their take on Metroid, Retro's take on DKC is pretty damn different. Objectively, Retro has them easily beat if you dissect the various aspects of game design. But of course whenever a different team takes on a storied franchise, the "essence" of the franchise comes into question. It's not surprising that something feels "off" to many people. It happens with every series.

I played the DKC games when I was younger and enjoyed the hell out of them. But I always thought RARE's games felt like Nintendo's "B-Team" games to me. DKC was no 2D Mario, Banjo/DKC64 were no SM64, Diddy Kong Racing was no Mario Kart, etc. Retro's efforts, on the other hand, are as good or even superior to Nintendo's own best efforts. I can love and appreciate what RARE did just as I love and appreciate what R&D/SPD has done for Metroid, but in both cases, Retro's efforts have gelled more with me.

TF > Returns > DKC > DKC2 > DKC3.
 
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