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Calamari41 · Jan 30, 2015

As far as cinematic inspiration goes, it's very telling that in the exact same Grand Theft Auto V interview where Dan Houser sees fit to name drop Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time unprompted, he has nothing to say about Final Fantasy 7 even when directly asked about the cinematic nature of his games:

Q. I think of you guys as a particularly cinematic studio.

A. I suppose what weve borrowed from cinema is cinematography. We havent borrowed a lot structurally. Weve borrowed from TV structurally, weve borrowed from long-form novels structurally. Even a short game like Max Payne is 10, 12 hours long. Its several action movies back to back, in terms of how the story works.

Mael · Jan 30, 2015

Frillen said:
Clearly you haven't read the thread, if you had you would learn that Mario 64 has influenced a whole lot more than platformers.

Also, you can thank MGS more than FFVII when it comes to the bullets point you had about FFVII. And lol at epic bosses. Have you actually played any games before the N64/PSone generation?

And lol @ epic bosses, like that's something so prevalent these days to begin...
Or that was something that was totally unheard of before...

I could go on forever.

Calamari41 · Jan 30, 2015

This boss fight was just as epic and got my pulse pounding just as much as any boss fight in Final Fantasy 7.

Effect · Jan 30, 2015

Super Mario 64 easily. It helped shape how 3D movement would be handled going forward and the camera control for that. Not just for platformers but other genres as well.

I honestly can't say Final Fantasy 7 impacted RPGs more other then the inclusion of FMVs and even then that's questionable because those just replaced scenes that were already in RPGs. For example the scene in Final Fantasy 6 where Celes is singing in the opera house. Something like that would very likely be a FMV cut scenes instead of being controlled by the player. Hell the opening walk in Final Fantasy 6 is a cut scene. Those were being done prior to FF7. That's pretty cinematic as the tech would allow then. The bike portion of FF7 as you escape Midgar had been done prior to that in Chrono Trigger. FF7 really isn't as revolutionary as many people think. I would argue it's not revolutionary at all.There are other rpgs that are more deserving of that claim and I loved FF7.

Hiko · Jan 30, 2015

OoT is far more revolutionary than FFVII. Maybe even more than Mario 64.

Sgt.Pepper · Jan 30, 2015

Shadow_FFVI said:
I'm starting to see a patern...

I see a circle, there's no end.

Shadow_FFVI · Jan 30, 2015

Sgt.Pepper said:
I see a circle, there's no end.

Pretty much.

As for my own stance. I think FF VII's influence was more culturally and in terms of style. It definitely had an impact in favor of PlayStation becoming what it is today. That's as big an impact as a game can have in the industry. Being in the right place on the right time certainly helped.

Mario 64's influence was in it's mechanics and camera control.

Overall, I would give Mario the edge, without understating FF VII's impact.

Frillen · Jan 30, 2015

Shadow_FFVI said:
I'm starting to see a patern...

You don't. FFVII is my fourth favorite jRPG of all time (behind FFVI, Skies of Arcadia and Chrono Trigger). I just fail to see how it influenced the industry more than Mario 64. Because it didn't, and this thread has provided us with multiple points and facts that's hard to counterattack. There's a reason as to why 90 % of the posters says Mario 64.

Stallion Dan · Jan 30, 2015

The pro FF reasons were already done by other games. Resident Evil and Tomb Raider as some big name examples.

FDC1 · Jan 30, 2015

Mario 64 has probably more impact on how games are done today

But you can't neglect FF7 impact on the industry. It created the momentum that changed Playstation status from "successful console" to "total domination", which led to PS2, the most successful console of all the time. Almost 20 years later, we still have consoles called Playstation which dominate the market.

flak57 · Jan 30, 2015

Calamari41 said:
Definitely a precursor to the systems that Mario 64 put in place, but still very primitive in comparison. It really appears to have missed the fully independently controlled camera, which was the major difference maker from Mario 64. Your comment about Zelda and Z-Targeting from a couple pages back applies well here, too: "I think the industry was pushing and prodding, and [Mario 64] comes along and takes a bulldozer to the wall."

I don't see how it's similar to SM64 at all.

And wtf at the bolded... I don't even know what to say to that. I'll at least say the games were setting out to do completely different things and both succeeded. And both still feel great to play in modern times. Paying out the ass for expensive twin sticks required of course.

Oh, and that quote is exactly what Virtual On also did.

Shadow_FFVI · Jan 30, 2015

Frillen said:
You don't. FFVII is my fourth favorite jRPG of all time (behind FFVI, Skies of Arcadia and Chrono Trigger). I just fail to see how it influenced the industry more than Mario 64. Because it didn't, and this thread has provided us with multiple points and facts that's hard to counterattack. There's a reason as to why 90 % of the posters says Mario 64.

The trend was more with you being condecendent. A bit passive agressive if I say so myself.

You have tempted me to actually count the votes, but I have spent enough time in this thread as it is.

Will probably end up doing it in spite of my better judgement, ugh.

FF VII is my favorite game of all time by quite the margin, but that doesn't stop me from accepting Mario 64's legacy.

MrBadger · Jan 30, 2015

I'm frequently seeing the kinds of characters and story lines that FF7 had getting mocked, altered or removed in modern western games. It's why we get characters like this

Shadow_FFVI · Jan 30, 2015

MrBadger said:
I'm frequently seeing the kinds of characters and story lines that FF7 had getting mocked, altered or removed in modern western games. It's why we get characters like this

You're finally accepting FF VII's influence, good...

You can blame FF VII for horrible characters of today as much as you can blame Mario 64 for horrible platformers.

Mael · Jan 30, 2015

FDC1 said:
Mario 64 has probably more impact on how games are done today

But you can't neglect FF7 impact on the industry. It created the momentum that changed Playstation status from "successful console" to "total domination", which led to PS2, the most successful console of all the time. Almost 20 years later, we still have consoles called Playstation which dominate the market.

Saturn was already dead by the time FFVII came out.
And Nintendo's fantastic 3rd party relations ensured that sony would be the prime partner for most game makers.
Give credit is due Sony did it pretty much single handedly.
On top of that the market presence of gaming outside Japan/NA is pretty much Sony's perfect move that ensures its sales performance was well above anything else.
Seriously Nintendo released it's performance in Europe during the Wii era, from NES -> Wii well Nintendo barely existed in Europe. So the market was ripe for the picking.
That's not due to FFVII at all, heck if that was the case Gran Turismo wouldn't be the best selling ps1 game.

Shadow_FFVI said:
You're finally accepting FF VII's influence, good...

You can blame FF VII for horrible characters of today as much as you can blame Mario 64 for horrible platformers.

Nah you can blame horrible writing, I won't blame Twilight on FFVII for example.

Calamari41 · Jan 30, 2015

flak57 said:
I don't see how it's similar to SM64 at all.

And wtf at the bolded... I don't even know what to say to that. I'll at least say the games were setting out to do completely different things and both succeeded. And both still feel great to play in modern times. Paying out the ass for expensive twin sticks required of course.

Oh, and that quote is exactly what Virtual On also did.

I'm not trying to fight you. In fact, I was trying to agree with you. I'm giving Virtual On props in the development of third person movement and combat mechanics. The primitive comment was with regards to the fact that it seems like its easy to lose track of the opponent in a way that was improved upon with Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time's camera systems. I've watched a bunch of videos since you mentioned the game yesterday, and losing track of the enemy for a few seconds and having to kind of re-calibrate yourself came up a lot.

If the stance is now that Virtual On has nothing to do with Mario 64, I'm not sure why it was even put forward?

MrBadger · Jan 30, 2015

Shadow_FFVI said:
You're finally accepting FF VII's influence, good...

You can blame FF VII for horrible characters of today as much as you can blame Mario 64 for horrible platformers.

Hey, I'm not blaming FF7 for horrible characters, I'm saying western games don't take much inspiration from FF7 when it comes to characters and stories. The fact that Donte is a horrible character's irrelevant

flak57 · Jan 30, 2015

Calamari41 said:
I'm not trying to fight you. In fact, I was trying to agree with you. I'm giving Virtual On props in the development of third person movement and combat mechanics. The primitive comment was with regards to the fact that it seems like its easy to lose track of the opponent in a way that was improved upon with Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time's camera systems. I've watched a bunch of videos since you mentioned the game yesterday, and losing track of the enemy for a few seconds and having to kind of re-calibrate yourself came up a lot.

That's vital to the strategy of the game, here's a vid of multiplayer -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHLCe4CLkXk

Note that's the 1998 sequel (ported to 360 it looks like), same idea though

Calamari41 · Jan 30, 2015

flak57 said:
That's vital to the strategy of the game, here's a vid of multiplayer -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHLCe4CLkXk

Note that's the 1998 sequel (ported to 360 it looks like), same idea though

As I've said, it looks like a lot of fun and I would love to play it, but it's looking less and less like the mechanics in this game are precursors to the mechanics in either Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time, so I'm wondering why it's being put up as a counter-example to Mario 64's innovations.

flak57 · Jan 30, 2015

Calamari41 said:
As I've said, it looks like a lot of fun and I would love to play it, but it's looking less and less like the mechanics in this game are precursors to the mechanics in either Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time, so I'm wondering why it's being put up as a counter-example to Mario 64's innovations.

Btw, they are jumping because that's one of the ways to regain a lock.

It was a response to this -

xsive said:
You have no idea what you're talking about. Before Mario 64 third-person 3D games came in only one flavour: fixed-perspective games with tank controls ala Alone in the Dark or Ecstatica.

Meanwhile you have VO looking like Vanquish in 1995.

I doubt VO had anything to do with SM64's development, but I'm not so sure about OOT. It was a successful Sega franchise after all so you'd think the dev team would have heard of it, and clearly there are similarities. Namely circle strafing combat, lol.

BDGAME · Jan 30, 2015

M°°nblade;149792030 said:
Yep, there was no free camera. But it was a 3D platform game that had camera-relative controls as well, rather than player-relative controls.

You could say the same about character navigation and camera controls regardless of mario 64.
I don't see what's 'cinematic' about the techniques FF6 used for story telling. It was 'basic text balloon - press X'
FFVII was a behemoth, it launched on 3 discs with hours of CGI cutscenes. I believe it was also the first RPG to have close-ups and dynamic camera movement during battles.

You could say FFVII is one of the first videogames that had the ambition to give the player a hollywood/blockbuster AAA experience, which became the norm for console releases in the gaming industry. You could say Mario defined how modern games are played while FFVII defined how modern games are served.

I can't agree more. If you look, that is the true influence of these games on actual marketing.

Mael · Jan 30, 2015

What is Hollywood like in the presentation of FFVII?
The photography or the directing of the cutscenes is nothing like how movies ever did it.
How is FFVII providing an experience close to Hollywood blockbusters in any way?

As for maturity, character development and other narrative focused gaming :
Tactics Ogre

2 years before FFVII available on SNES, rereleased on Saturn/PS1 then remade on PSP.

dragonfart28 · Jan 30, 2015

Just an additional note, and this is entirely my opinion, but I think cinematic gaming would likely develop just as prominently without FF7.

Conversely, I think it could be argued that most developers didn't even have the concept of a floating camera implanted in their head until Mario 64 came out.

Mael · Jan 30, 2015

dragonfart28 said:
Just an additional note, and this is entirely my opinion, but I think cinematic gaming would likely develop just as prominently without FF7.

Conversely, I think it could be argued that most developers didn't even have the concept of a floating camera implanted in their head until Mario 64 came out.

I think someone would have figured it out eventually, after all the cues from the cinema gaming took I would be surprised if no one would have ever thought of making the gamer the director who choose the camera angles.
Heck when you're making a 3D scene there's 1 thing you really have to deal is the camera placement after all.
It's true that it's a very elegant solution and a very nice metaphor to boot.
Even Nintendo used the trick of the Lakitu camera only once, they could have made Navi the camera in OoT for the whole game instead of the just the opening cutscene.

djtiesto · Jan 30, 2015

Gonna have to go with Mario 64, even though I much prefer FF7. The way you moved the character in 3D space can't be denied, and is something nearly every game has taken influence from... plus the game added some sort of camera controls, which nearly every free-roaming 3D game has nowadays (ironically enough the more recent Mario 3D platformers greatly limits them

)

FF7 was a spectacle of marketing budget and was a great deal responsible for the PS1's strong worldwide success (which led to the PS2, PS3)... its influence on the industry is crazy. But cinematic games have existed much before FF7, did we all forget Dragon's Lair and the glut of FMV games on Sega CD, PC, CD-i, 3DO?

Mr. Poolman · Jan 30, 2015

Mario 64 created a whole new way to play.
No contest for me.

TheRedSnifit · Jan 31, 2015

Parhelion69 said:
We see more FFVII influence nowadays: cinematic games, emotional stories, character development, symphonic soundtracks, cutscenes (now done in real time), epic bosses.

On the other hand, 3d platformers is a genre practically dead, only nintendo does it (but the stage design is different. Mario 3d World feels more like a 2.5D game)

Both are excellent games on their own right, but the FFVII impact nowadays is bigger, and clear to see.

Cinematic games had already existed. Wing Commander 3 & 4 came out in 1994 and 1996 (respectively), were voice-acted, were full 3D, had FMV cutscenes, live action cutscenes, "symphonic" soundtracks, branching cutscenes, were released alongside accompanying novels and trading card games, and came on multiple CDs (3 had four CDs, and 4 had 6). All told, the games cost about $10 million each at a time where your typical game cost about $500k, and reviewers frequently called them "interactive movies". Acting as though FFVII was even close to starting this trend shows that you don't know very much about gaming at the time.

So what other things did FFVII influence? JRPGs continue to be niche, and almost no modern games - including Final Fantasy itself - bear any resemblance to it. Of the big games people keep bringing up in this thread (Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Ocarina of Time, Quake, etc.), FFVII was probably the least influential.

Big One · Jan 31, 2015

Honestly I do not find FF7 revolutionary in the slightest. There was FMV style games already on the PCs for a couple of years before it came along and even on consoles so you can't say it innovated cutscenes by any means. In terms of gameplay, it's pretty much FF6 in 3D more or less so I don't see much innovation there.

Great game and it's definitely many people's first Final Fantasy game, but in retrospect it isn't that innovative.

Super Mario 64 on the other hand pretty much revolutionized third person 3D gaming. It was somethign never done before and everything ever since has copied things from it whether it's a platformer or a shooter.

FreezerGeezer · Jan 31, 2015

Mario 64 and personally I don't think it is remotely close.

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