I can vouch for that. I have 2 Kuro 9G's. They are highly resistant to image retention/burn-in and also give a brighter picture than the 2013 Panasonic's which I find useful for gaming. I have contrast at 40 for games and 30 for watching movies. The only large screen (non-42") Panasonic that gets anywhere close to the Kuro brightness with inky blacks is the GT60 but I got rid of it because I was sensitive to the DFC and image retention was bad. Kuro also has service menu options for the more knowledgeable owners to get the screen even brighter (boosting contrast ratio) if required by upping ABL setting but I haven't had the need to do that and the downside is the TV requires more electricity to run ad outputs more heat.
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Help me save my Plasma TV from Destiny HUD
- Thread starter amar212
- Start date
I can vouch for that. I have 2 Kuro 9G's. They are highly resistant to image retention/burn-in and also give a brighter picture than the 2013 Panasonic's which I find useful for gaming. I have contrast at 40 for games and 30 for watching movies. The only large screen (non-42") Panasonic that gets anywhere close to the Kuro brightness with inky blacks is the GT60 but I got rid of it because I was sensitive to the DFC and image retention was bad. Kuro also has service menu options for the more knowledgeable owners to get the screen even brighter (boosting contrast ratio) if required by upping ABL setting but I haven't had the need to do that and the downside is the TV requires more electricity to run ad outputs more heat.
My original comment was a snarky response to an idiotic post but it doesn't matter.
The LCD monitor I bought this summer (BenQ BL3200PT) also uses an AU Optronics AMVA panel (different panel, of course, since it's 1440p rather than 2160p) and, at least in this monitors case, the results are quite good. It's a massive step up from the awful IPS LCDs that I have in my triple screen setup (which is for work, not play since they don't really match up). From what I've seen of the X900A, though, I can agree that it is a beautiful display and I'd be fairly happy with it as well. Though I'm not sure 4K makes sense for a TV yet as that ultimately means you'll be upscaling everything. By the way, does it offer a nearest neighbor type scaling option? That would really make a difference.
I absolutely respect these issues and can understand completely.
The VT60 is a beautiful display but it definitely has some issues that hold it back compared to a Kuro Elite (which is why I'm using as my primary). When it was released, however, that wasn't really an option as it has long been off the market. I was disappointed that Panasonic never really managed to squash a few of its notable issues. I still feel that the Panasonic displays produce a grainier overall image with noticeable dithering when viewed from close proximity - it's not a real issue from a normal distance but I still found it distracting with games. More importantly, they were never able to overcome image retention issues. It's a non-issue for the Kuro and, considering its origins, I expected the same of the 2013 Panasonic plasmas but that didn't happen - they still suffer from pretty serious IR when not taken care of properly. Pioneer solved this issue and I do think, if others had managed to follow suit, it could have helped plasma survive.
That's a fair approach and I can understand the reasons for switching. When I moved to Europe I brought the Kuro (for my theater/gaming room) and bought an LCD TV for the living room due to IR issues faced by other plasmas, among other things. When I do play games on it, though, its shortcomings become obvious very quickly. Of course, I also have two head mounted displays with OLED screens (Sony HMZ-T1 and Oculus Rift DK2) and those really demonstrate the advantages of OLED versus LCD and I'm eager to get my hands on one of those OLED TVs.
Fahrenheit
Banned
My 60st30 had tons of IR till i put like 1,000 of use on it. Now I hardly get any IR.
55" ST50 owner here as well as avid Destiny player. I notice IR all of the time, but it generally fades fairly quickly. With Destiny's HUD I've noticed a much more prolonged time in order for the IR to fade. I love the set, but having seen the dithering in bright whites, horizontal line bleed, on top of the IR I'll probably never go with a plasma again. It certainly has it moments of beauty though.
I think the ability to customize your UI is the hallmark of a customer centric approach to game design. Giving people the power to alter the way in which they interact with the software based on their personal needs, tastes, etc. should be a top priority in my opinion and I'm always bummed when it's not. (I'm looking at you Diablo 3)
I think the ability to customize your UI is the hallmark of a customer centric approach to game design. Giving people the power to alter the way in which they interact with the software based on their personal needs, tastes, etc. should be a top priority in my opinion and I'm always bummed when it's not. (I'm looking at you Diablo 3)
I agree. All their focus went into "Lets make this thing as thin as possible!!", as well as bullshit 3D tech which no one cares about anymore, and they put PQ on the back burner.
Now 1080p sets are really going to get the shaft. The focus is now shifted to 4K sets. It'll be impossible to find a quality 1080p set going forward. They'll all be budget model LCD's with mediocre PQ at best.
I'm surprised you aren't recommending the Samsung F8500 given the closeout pricing. While the final Kuro Pro models have slightly lower black levels (particularly if you luck out with one of the 'magical' ones with the voltage set different), but the Sammy is still as black as pretty much anything else released that isn't an OLED. Plus it has better contrast, whiter whites, bright room performance, and far more features (interpolation, 3D, DNLA, apps, etc).
Not that I'd turn down a Kuro by any means, but since you can grab a F8500 new at crazy low prices ... seems like a reasonable alternative.
http://www.cnet.com/news/lg-wins-value-electronics-shootout-2014/
The Samsung F8500 tied overall with the current LG OLED (9300) at the annual HDTV shootout (this is a side-by-side comparison on a variety of categories ... all sets are calibrated and rated by professional calibrators ... and there is a second group of 'laymen' that also vote).
http://www.cnet.com/topics/tvs/best-tvs/picture-quality/
Also, c-net's reviewers place the Sammy only behind the LG based on their internal reviewers. The year prior, we saw similarly close ratings when looking at the prior models (with Samsung's OLED and Panasonic's VT/ZT Plasma in the mix). Basically it's been OLED/Plasma > LCD since OLED hit.
Regardless stating it destroys Plasma can only be attributed to you having not viewed a calibrated high-end Plasma. Obviously not all Plasma are of that caliber. Of note here as well, the Sammy can be had for like a 1/3 of the price of the LG (and has 3 sizes).
Ah that confirms it - you haven't seen a high-end Plasma. Modern 600Hz Plasma that use newer phosphor designs do not have green trails (that issue was due to a longer decay time in the green phosphor).
OLED does have objectively lower temporal (motion) resolution due to it using sample-and-hold like LCD's. Thankfully its response times means no added physical blurring like LCD, but its display method does inherently lower temporal resolution versus Plasma unless interpolation is used. Obviously whether that bothers you is a personal question.
Regarding the LG, it actually has some weird motion issues ... but I suspect that is either a firmware issue or potentially part of the panel drive system. I have no reason to assume it's systemic to OLED itself, but it's unknown when or if LG can fix it on the 9300. To be honest, I'm looking forward to LG OEMing panels to companies like Sony, etc. LG, regardless of their fabrication prowess, has never really had all that great of a record for image processing and the like.
Then I guess you must not like anything given the 'LCD fanbase' in this very thread and plenty of others is doing the exact sort of thing
Yeah, the F8500 is an awesome plasma. 0.0017 fL black level...you pretty much have to find the very best of the 9G Kuros to outdo that black level. But the F8500 can get much brighter while also having a MUCH, MUCH better AR filter than any Pioneer plasma. It's very hard to make it look washed out.
And I agree about OLED. Right now it's like an infinite black plasma but with LCD style motion. They need to fix that.
Image retention still ruins gaming IMO. It's disgusting.
Good thing the tech is essentially dead with Panasonic out of the game.
And plus if you use bias lighting (I highly recommend it), it's pretty damn impressive.
Yeah, and unfortunately it's unknown whether that can be fixed. The way our eyes work, it actually takes a little while for us to perceive something's absolute amplitude (brightness). And that's why OLED uses sample and hold ... it allows them to drive the image at a lower voltage and create the brightness we want. OLED still has aging issue, and it is unclear if and when they can use alternative driving methods that would improve temporal resolution (pulse code modulation, scanning, high frequency frame insertion, etc). All of those methods require the subpixels to display much brighter (but for a shorter duration), and I suspect they are running into aging issues.
Not all Plasma designs have notable IR issues though. And why would you want less choice? That's bad for everyone.
There were a couple things that couldn't be moved in the beta. Is it absolutely everything now?
I know there was an option to turn it all off completely but it's difficult playing like that in this game.
Yeah I'm fairly certain everything can be moved via the HUD controls except the chat box. I know it's possible to move this but it's a bit more fiddly. Though the chat box does also have some transparency controls as well. So yeah, between clearing everything except what I absolutely need and moving stuff around if anything starts showing it's all good. Apart from the chat box I haven't seen anything I couldn't move/hide through the HUD controls.
Objectively: OLED TVs have even better black levels (not that plasma isn't already great in this area), they have better black filters for daytime viewing, they have lower power consumption, but they have terrible motion resolution compared to plasma and much higher input lag.
Subjectively: Their picture isn't as organic as plasma and CRT type technologies - but this is a bit like the vinyl vs CD debate so probably not worth arguing here
Not true on input lag. The LG EC9300 gets down to 34ms with input renamed to PC. That's much better than the F8500 and comparable to the lowest-lag Plasmas.
DJ Lushious
Member
I thought you had picked up the LG OLED, judging by a post you made in the dedicated HDTV thread. Was it just a set you had hands-on time with?
No issues with my PN64H5000 Samsung, probably close to 50 hours. That said I mostly COOP and Raid, so I'm in orbit and the tower a lot.
I did notice the Destiny HUD is about 5-10% transparent, which seems to help with this particular set. Move the HUD from a bright light over a dark spot and you'll see the pixel color change.
Now, I do have some IR from a 8 hour session of Bloodborne Friday. Solid white HUD in a generally dark game did it. IR wipe and some cartoons have is mostly gone out of a gray test pattern (and only when looking for it). It's not noticeable otherwise.
Crazy to be that we still don't regularity get HUD opacity sliders. LCD is much, much, much less prone to IR and burn in, but it's still possible there as well. Let's go Dev's, this should be a standard option by now!
I did notice the Destiny HUD is about 5-10% transparent, which seems to help with this particular set. Move the HUD from a bright light over a dark spot and you'll see the pixel color change.
Now, I do have some IR from a 8 hour session of Bloodborne Friday. Solid white HUD in a generally dark game did it. IR wipe and some cartoons have is mostly gone out of a gray test pattern (and only when looking for it). It's not noticeable otherwise.
Crazy to be that we still don't regularity get HUD opacity sliders. LCD is much, much, much less prone to IR and burn in, but it's still possible there as well. Let's go Dev's, this should be a standard option by now!
The Lamonster
Member
My Panny plasma has a slow scrolling vertical white bar that wipes out any kind of burn-in.
Play around with your settings and see if you've got something similar.
Play around with your settings and see if you've got something similar.
I have that! Yeah, left it on a few hours and it doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference. I doubt it's total burn-in, probably more heavily persistent IR. It's the sort of darkish colour of the retention that concerns me, but that's probably just an IR thing anyway.
Caayn
Member
Static game huds can be really annoying, but I haven't had any real problems with them so far. I didn't have problems with the Destiny hud on my Panasonic VT60 but I do have the Xbox Orb burned in right now, it's been there for more two months. Causing me to actively avoid the dashboard of the Xbox One.
Who ever came up with the bright idea to put a pure white logo on screen across a device's dashboard and certain apps should be fired on the spot.
Who ever came up with the bright idea to put a pure white logo on screen across a device's dashboard and certain apps should be fired on the spot.
The Xtortionist
Member
I use a Panasonic S60 and have very few issues with burn-in. I believe keeping the contrast low can help (and I play in the dark, so a low contrast setting doesn't have much consequence), and the scrolling bars are also effective. I have the occasional IR with HUD elements such as Axiom Verge's border around the currently-equipped weapon, but it goes away. Guacamelee was the worst with its static, bright-white 2P PRESS START in the corner.
Are you talking about your plasma, or plasmas in general?
Pixel Orbiter works just fine with 1:1 pixel ratio on my TV (Kuro LX-5090). The standard setting is that the PO is disabled with 1:1 pixel ratio, but there's a setting which allows the PO to always be enabled, regardless of screen size. Not sure about your TV, though. You may not have the option to do so, but if you were talking about plasmas in general, i can tell you that that's not true.
Edit: Wasn't aware of the bump and that the thread was ancient while I wrote this.
DaxMedFlax
Member
You can adjust the 'safe zone' of your TV in Destiny settings, which should move the HUD slightly. Just change this every couple of hours. PS4 has this type of system wide setting also. Not ideal perhaps, but it makes a huge difference for me. (I'm on a Panasonic ST50)
Steve McQueen
Member
Got that too. My Panasonic has got some sort of pixel shift mode to prevent IR or burn in. My kids got a great LCD/LED screen recently, but the image never comes close to my 4 years old Panny plasma. Too bad that most people thought plasma was done for, expensive and old fashioned. Never seen any screen come close. Think of it as a 50 inch HD PS Vita screen.
Yup, unfortunately this makes little difference. In fact, it makes it a little worse. I experimented with this during one of my playthroughs (only three hours at most) and it just made an even larger area of IR.
Kor of Memory
Member
Destiny does let you move your HUD slightly.
I can't remember the option, but it's besically a sliding scale for HUD items distance from center.
You could pull this max in or max out so that you are creating some variety in the burn in portions.
I can't remember the option, but it's besically a sliding scale for HUD items distance from center.
You could pull this max in or max out so that you are creating some variety in the burn in portions.
Havent read the whole thread, but possibly backing off the brightness may prolong the panel health.
Does the Panasonic not come with some sort of Orbital technology like the Pioneers? It moves the image around the screen by a few pixels to prevent burn in. I can have multiple hours of static images on my Pioneer without even IR occurring let along burn in.
Does the Panasonic not come with some sort of Orbital technology like the Pioneers? It moves the image around the screen by a few pixels to prevent burn in. I can have multiple hours of static images on my Pioneer without even IR occurring let along burn in.
Seth Enosh
Member
I got some slight image retention of the Destiny HUD on my Panasonic 50S64 after playing the second or third Iron Banner, but after that I've just moved the HUD around using the safe zone option every once in a while and not had the problem recur (I also have the pixel orbiter turned on in TV settings). That said, I don't play destiny exclusively (only about 250-300 hours total on my account I think) and watch TV once or twice a week.
If you only play Destiny, try running the screen wipe for 90 minutes after every session. My panasonic has an option to auto-sleep the screen after a certain number of minutes (15, 30, 60, 90) and that can work together with the Screen Wipe function.
thoseAREmySHOES
Member
I've done that, now I just have the HUD retained in several spots >.>
Destiny and EA sports games are the only games I've had this issue with.
I use a UT50 and it does have the pixel orbiter function. Even with 1-to1 pixel mapping, it still shifts the image (if I turn off the pixel orbiter, the image shifts back, indicating it was offset despite the 1-1).
That's what I did too.
And when farming or doing boring stuff I'd even use the zoom options on the TV.
Eventually I stopped playing the game though.
Seriously.
Just give a damn "turn off" or transparency slider option.
Giving this thread yet another bump. It's just downright shocking to me they can't put in a simple HUD removal option.
I've put in a ton of hours into Destiny. For a while it was the only game I played. Thus, my S60 has some pretty stubborn IR on the bottom left of the screen. Haven't played Destiny nearly as much over the past few weeks and have been trying all the fixes mentioned in this thread. It's getting better, but still noticeable (especially on a white screen).
Been playing a ton of the Witcher lately and the HUD options are just astounding. You can customize every single piece of it and only display what you need...or even nothing at all. I've actually considered trying to do a hudless playthrough. I can actually get by fine without seeing my health, but not having the onscreen map is trouble sometimes. Anyway...
Bungie, pls.
I've put in a ton of hours into Destiny. For a while it was the only game I played. Thus, my S60 has some pretty stubborn IR on the bottom left of the screen. Haven't played Destiny nearly as much over the past few weeks and have been trying all the fixes mentioned in this thread. It's getting better, but still noticeable (especially on a white screen).
Been playing a ton of the Witcher lately and the HUD options are just astounding. You can customize every single piece of it and only display what you need...or even nothing at all. I've actually considered trying to do a hudless playthrough. I can actually get by fine without seeing my health, but not having the onscreen map is trouble sometimes. Anyway...
Bungie, pls.
Destiny wasn't designed with Plasma TVs in mind. I experienced the same issue with my VT50 and the best solution was to run the bars every time after playing and occasionally using the pixel orbiter feature from Disney's WOW disc. Thankfully, I haven't played the game in months so I haven't had to worry about it.
Third Eye Clear
Neo Member
I love my Samsung plasma!!! Those rich blacks.
The retention was one of the reasons I stopped playing Destiny. Plus all the grinding and ridiculous RNG.
I left the screen saver on and I'm sure you can find a burn in dvd to get rid of the retention.
As far as Bungie is concerned, is it that hard to implement some sort of hud opacity feature?
The retention was one of the reasons I stopped playing Destiny. Plus all the grinding and ridiculous RNG.
I left the screen saver on and I'm sure you can find a burn in dvd to get rid of the retention.
As far as Bungie is concerned, is it that hard to implement some sort of hud opacity feature?
Night Angel
Member
Move the hud around by changing the screen bounds.
Boom.
Boom.
Yep. I've used a plasma for years (entire PS3 era and current gen era) and I've never had the issue.
Certainly doesn't seem that hard, but who knows for sure? I just tweeted to DeeJ and Cozmo. Maybe they'll see it.
Been discussed in this thread already. Doesn't work.
Destiny image retention is so aggressive, that it only takes a few minutes to hit. For this reason, constantly moving the screen bounds actually just increases the area of IR.
Night Angel
Member
Worked for me on my ST50. /shrug
Lucky for you!
Yes
I did find a thread on Bungie's forums way back near launch where DeeJ actually commented and said it was being looked at. Kind of weird nothing at all has happened with it. Seems like an easy fix, but what do I know.Yeah, I was really hoping for a fix in time for the 15th so I could get The Taken King
It seems you and I are among the few people who care about this enough, lol. The bungie thread cracked me up because so many people in there were hating on plasmas and the "dated technology." Showing their ignorance when it comes to the picture and motion quality of the panasonic plasmas (and others). I love my TV so getting a new one isn't really an option for me.
diffusionx
Gold Member
This is how it is with plasmas. I forget which one I have - maybe a ST50. The people who said it was no longer an issue were clearly wrong. Even though it shouldn't be permanent, it's an open question as to when it will fade. Maybe I just got a dud panel, but after years of making these, that's no excuse.
I actually don't care anymore. My TV at any given time has various UIs persisting. Including from stuff like sports. I'll never buy a plasma again, although I guess the TV manufacturers made that decision for me. I bought a very expensive Sony for the living room and PQ strikes me as reasonably close to the plasma. It's just that plasmas had great PQ *and* price.
I actually don't care anymore. My TV at any given time has various UIs persisting. Including from stuff like sports. I'll never buy a plasma again, although I guess the TV manufacturers made that decision for me. I bought a very expensive Sony for the living room and PQ strikes me as reasonably close to the plasma. It's just that plasmas had great PQ *and* price.
Bungie's communities are horrible, so that doesn't surprise me.