Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Hmm gonna expect an actual shot of the blob tomorrow if that guy in /vp/ manages to do it.
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So besides the mysterious possible Zygarde forme, there's a new Pokemon too?
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
Are you that determined to deny there's a difference?
There is a difference, yes, but you shouldn't just dismiss them as not counting as new creatures just because of that. New features and mechanics like this are necessary to prevent stagnation, and they did a good thing. There will forever be new Mega Evolutions alongside new Pokémon. You need to accept it.
Maybe the blob is just an alternate form of Zygarde as well, maybe once it's "shed" it's skin and that's what's leftover? Some of the fanart of this thing gives me a slight snake impression as well, even though it mostly looks like a blob.
It just seems too soon for a new gen, we haven't even gotten the 3rd version yet and Nintendo has never skipped over it in favor of a new gen. Also, unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a true, new Pokemon to debut in a 3rd version of a game, has there? New Pokemon have always debuted in it's initial generation games. All that points to something alternate instead of being a hint to a new gen.
I'd love to be wrong about this though, new generations always get me excited as hell.
It just seems too soon for a new gen, we haven't even gotten the 3rd version yet and Nintendo has never skipped over it in favor of a new gen. Also, unless I'm mistaken, there's never been a true, new Pokemon to debut in a 3rd version of a game, has there? New Pokemon have always debuted in it's initial generation games. All that points to something alternate instead of being a hint to a new gen.
I'd love to be wrong about this though, new generations always get me excited as hell.
No one cares if Megas are here to stay what people care about is that actual new Pokemon aren't sacrificed for new Megas.
Cloud Strife
Member
Sorry Joe, I know where you're coming from, but I'm of this mind as well.
But they are as valid a new thing as new Pokémon.
This is the sixth generation. Typically, the even numbered generations include evolutions of Pokémon from previous generations:
Gen 2 had 11 Evolutions and 7 Pre-evolutions totalling 18, so 18% of the new Pokémon.
Gen 4 had 22 Evolutions and 6 Pre-Evolutions totalling 28, so 26.1% of the new Pokémon.
Gen 1 was all new, Gen 3 had 2 pre-evolutions and that's it, and Gen 5 had none
Rather than do that, they did Mega Evolutions. Granted, the percentage is higher (49 of the 122 new creatures provided being Mega Evolutions of Pokémon introduced before Generation VI so 40% but in X & Y it was 30 of 102 which is 29% bringing it in line with Gen IV), it's just they went with this brand new concept and they had every right to choose it over doing new species. They added a new concept to change things up and they had to go full hog
Ground Dragon with ThickFat
Cloud Strife
Member
I don't dislike Mega-Evolutions, but I can't see them being comparable to new Pokemon. For the many reasons people have already said like having only one per team (more subjectively how little they differ aesthetically in comparison to their normal forms) . Again, more subjectively, I don't play online as I find it very tedious, so the amount of Mega-Stones even available to me during the main story in X/Y and OR/AS were limited, as opposed to new Pokemon I could use and try out.
That's where I'm coming from.
I think it would have been interesting to have a Mega-Evolution only battle mode, though.
I understand the whole stagnation bit, but there are dozens of other ways to prevent that from happening by tweaking other areas and aspects of the games (story, progression, new battle modes, etc.).
Yeah but story/progression doesn't affect the multiplayer, new battle modes are irrelevant when the majority focus on the existing modes. These things were needed to give a new element of strategy to the actual multiplayer.
Also I disagree with the "how little they change". Only a couple fall into that category.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I'll quote myself from a previous page.
And thinking about it more, 10-15 more new Pokemon probably would have been enough honestly.
I count Megas as Pokemon, but I think they really needed a few more new Pokemon that weren't related to previous Pokemon in Gen VI.
Cloud Strife
Member
This is where we get into subjectivity: what's more valuable in a Pokemon game? The Multiplayer or the Single-player?
If, by your post, we are concluding that Mega-Evolutions main contributing factor to the games are their "new element of strategy", then you can see why people don't think that Megas are new Pokemon since that contribution is lost on those who play single-player.
What? When did I dismiss them as not counting as Pokemon? You keep trying to play it off as if I have some sort of vendetta against Mega Evolutions, but as I've said before - I like them and what they add to competitive battles. I also know that they are going to be a fixture in the series going forward. I just don't like that we are getting a drastically reduced number of new evolutionary lines as a result. I like that GF spiced things up a bit with Mega Evolutions, but not everyone is going to happily ignore or outright deny the clear downsides that come with them. You need to accept it.
Nobody is saying that they aren't valid, so please stop spouting that. All that has been said is that they aren't the same as regular Pokemon, because they aren't. Mega Evolutions also can't be directly compared with regular evolutions, because even disregarding that they aren't balanced for single player at all and that most of the stones aren't available until after beating the game, you are only able to use one of them on your team anyway. And as I've said before - even discounting the new evolutions of older Pokemon in G/S, that game introduced far more new lines of Pokemon than XY. THAT is what this argument is about. Not whether or not Mega Evolutions count lol.
I'm fine with Megas but they really should have added more new Pokemon. Hope they heard that criticism and address it in Gen 7.
I have to side with Joe on this one, all your distinctions of what "differences" you choose to percieve as mattering or not mattering enough to "count" as new pokemon, or be the "same as regular pokemon" are completely arbitrary.
It doesn't matter when you get the stones, or any of the other stuff that your emotions validate. They are new designs, new animations, new stats. Not that different from a regular evolution. I would even argue that form changes are almost new pokemon too. They are content that needs to be added and the only differences really are the similarities they share with already existing pokemon, which is true for any evolution.
And you're over-reacting when you get mad at him for saying that people are saying mega evolutions don't count. It's reasonable of him to say that, because even if we're not talking about you, there are others who say that, but yo, this was in fact in response to you specifically implying that they don't count. On the last page someone gave a pokemon count for Gen VI including megas and you disputed it saying theres a difference. Implying you say they don't count lol
I know what you mean and see where you're coming from, but its a little disingenuous. Why is it that megas don't count but lickylicky does, or igglybuff? A pokedex entry?
And why do I have to "admit" that sacrifices are being made to include megas, when
1) I disagree with your idea of it entirely on the premise that megas ARE new pokemon so uh...its a relevant argument.
2) Including content doesn't mean other content was axed for that content. The same as people not liking characters in smash bros because it meant in their head that the character they wanted got axed.
Nope. No new Pokedex numbers, no record in the game of if you've caught them, no incentive to bother. Catching them all is the whole fun for me. I'd've been entirely satisfied if there was a Megadex or something keeping track of which ones you had but there isn't. So instead there were only 70ish new Pokemon; which is an absolute disappointment.
Megas are an awesome idea and a totally valid way to take the series, but you can't say that Pokemon 650-720 are 'as valid' as 'Pokemon 003 again we guess.' They deliberately made Megas less off a 'new thing' than the new Pokemon so there's no problem treating them like it.
ArchedThunder
Banned
It does keep track though, they're under forms for each Pokemon in the dex.
I do agree though, a Mega dex would be so much better.
You're right, I meant no one place to see all off them but I suppose it is true that the game does keep track. In fact why is there no Formedex? Couldn't they at least have a different coloured Pokeball for Pokemon you've caught every forme of on the list or something? (Excluding Shinies and Gender, obviously.)
Dude, I literally say in the post you quoted that I count them as real Pokemon, and on the last page I agreed with Joe that they obviously require the same resources. That has never been my issue. What I want is new evolutionary LINES of Pokemon, and there were far less of those in XY. Is this not a well known term or something? As an example, Froakie/Frogadier/Greninja - that's an evolutionary line. Mega Charizard is cool, but it's an extension to a previously existing line - it doesn't fill the role I'm talking about at all. Do you agree with me there? This isn't an arbitrary distinction.
This argument literally started when I mentioned being disappointed in the small variety of new Pokemon available for use during the storyline of XY. That is all I'm discussing. I don't like that Mega Evolutions have directly reduced the number of new LINES being added in a generation. So yes - where you obtain the stones is pretty relevant, since it heavily restricts what new Pokemon can be used during the story.
Acknowledging there's a difference isn''t the same thing as saying they don't count. He had replied to someone else's disappointment over the small number of new Pokemon - and again . that person is clearly referring to brand new 'mons, rather than extensions to previously existing lines.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
The Mega Evos do get added to the Pokédex, just in the same entry as the non-Mega (a seperate dex, or their own dex entries with lore would have been better/cooler, but it's not like there's currently no collection/recording aspect to it at all like you mistakenly imply). It even changes the little sprite icon that leads to the Pokédex entry: it replaces the non-Mega with the Mega which is really cute. So you do need to get all the Mega Stones and use them to Mega Evolve the corresponding Pokémon in battle at least once to get them to show up in the Pokédex. In other words you still need to catch all the Pokémon, find their Mega Stones and Mega Evolve them all to truly complete the dex. I'm like you in that I love to catch 'em all and it was one of the most fun aspects to collecting all the Megas in XY and ORAS to me.
As I already said, I am aware the game keeps track of it and I think it's really cool. I enjoyed doing it when I got round to it in OR, but I didn't 'mistakenly' imply anything; Professor Sycamore gave me the whole 'way to go champ you completed the pokedex' speech in Y without my rounding up the Megas. Mega Pokemon aren't treated like full new Pokemon by the game, is my problem.
EDIT: Well, I did mistakenly imply it's not monitored by the game at all. If that's what you meant then yeah you're totally right. But I stand by 'a Megadex would've been cooler'
This is an image of in game Pokédex show casing the current 719 Pokémon, Hoopa and Volcanion aren't obtainable yet, oh look not a single Mega is part of the 719.
If they aren't part of the Pokédex numbering or bump the count up then they aren't new Pokémon, it's as simple as that.
Can you PM the picture to me, I want to see the ugly bastard.
I don't care if mega go or stay just as long they don't get in the way of the Pokémon count, I want to see new real Pokémon and proper new evolution for past gen Pokémon, not some burst mode form change.
Forme change also fall in the changing the sprite category, heck so does shiny, even to the point of finding a way to active them.
They aren't new Pokémon period.
burn this down
Banned
Genuine question: What separates Megas from form changes (Giratina, Keldeo, Meloetta, etc.)? Because they do the same stuff, right? Mess with the stats and change the appearance of a Pokemon?
Because while I agree that an equal amount of design and balance work goes into them as a brand new Pokemon, I have a hard time seeing the major difference between a Mega Evolution and a form change.
Because while I agree that an equal amount of design and balance work goes into them as a brand new Pokemon, I have a hard time seeing the major difference between a Mega Evolution and a form change.
On the surface , there's no real difference. Mechanically, you can only have one mega evolution per team and it takes up an item slot to have one (with one notable exception), which isn't required of many form changes.
edit: I guess I could add that form changes also affect the Pokemon outside of battle as well as having a large variety of ways to activate or alter forms. Mega evolutions are always activated in battle only and last only until the battle ends and are triggered on command.
ShironRedshift
Member
This talk of Mega Evolutions really reminds me a lot of the "even generation problem" Pokemon seems to have in general. Take Gen IV for instance, where only 106 new Pokemon were introduced and a significant chunk of that Pokedex were evolutions of Pokemon from previous generations and Legendaries/Mythical Pokemon, leading to there being a feeling of there being even less new stuff added than there actually was. Similarly, in Gen II, only 100 new Pokemon were introduced but a chunk of them were also pre-evolutions/evolutions of Gen I Pokemon and gameplay further confounded the problem by sticking a number of new Pokemon (such as Houndour, Larvitar, and Sneasel) all the way in Kanto such that they really weren't usable for the main game at all.
I view Mega Evolutions as pretty much an extension of that problem. Sure, they're pretty cool (some of them particularly so), the second-leash on life it gives to some families is very nice to see and the strategic elements of only being able to use one Mega Evolution per battle and if the boost from the Mega Evolution is worth giving up the options other hold items allow are definitely fascinating to me. But while all that's true, ultimately I just... don't really care that much though and while I have nothing against Mega Evolutions, I'd rather just have new Pokemon families much, much, more, the same way I preferred the new Pokemon over the barrage of pre-evolutions we got in Gen II and he same way I preferred new Pokemon over the barrage of evolutions and Legendaries we got in Gen IV.
And I mean, it's one thing when they have say like 5 of the things and still have like 100 other completely new Pokemon, which is kinda sorta how Gen IV handled the new evolutions, but when they start making up like a 1/3 of the total count of "new" Pokemon added to a Generation ala Gen VI, that balance just feels... off. It's one thing to throw a few nods to the prior Gens in the form of pre-evolutions, evolutions, and Mega Evolutions, but when there's a low amount of new Pokemon in a generation to begin with and of that amount a significant amount is just extensions of already existing family-trees, that balance just feels off IMO and leads to that generation not having enough of its own "identity" since so much of what it contributed to the Pokemon world is just extensions of previous generations instead of it's own unique flavor and varieties of new Pokemon, if that makes any sense.
It's not the Mega Evolutions themselves I have a problem with, but just how many of them there are in Gen VI in comparison to the relatively few new family trees of "Kalos-native" Pokemon, just like the respective problems in Gen II and Gen IV as those Gens struggling to form their own unique identities as so much of what makes them what they are is tied to prior generations instead of truly being able to stand on their own and while that's fine in the expanded third version or whatever, that's not what I like to see in the main entries that mark the beginning of a new Generation at least. That might not exactly make sense, and apologize if that's the case since it's kind of tricky to put exactly what I'm getting at into words I guess since it's kind of a really abstract thing, but yeah, that's pretty much how I feel on this.
I view Mega Evolutions as pretty much an extension of that problem. Sure, they're pretty cool (some of them particularly so), the second-leash on life it gives to some families is very nice to see and the strategic elements of only being able to use one Mega Evolution per battle and if the boost from the Mega Evolution is worth giving up the options other hold items allow are definitely fascinating to me. But while all that's true, ultimately I just... don't really care that much though and while I have nothing against Mega Evolutions, I'd rather just have new Pokemon families much, much, more, the same way I preferred the new Pokemon over the barrage of pre-evolutions we got in Gen II and he same way I preferred new Pokemon over the barrage of evolutions and Legendaries we got in Gen IV.
And I mean, it's one thing when they have say like 5 of the things and still have like 100 other completely new Pokemon, which is kinda sorta how Gen IV handled the new evolutions, but when they start making up like a 1/3 of the total count of "new" Pokemon added to a Generation ala Gen VI, that balance just feels... off. It's one thing to throw a few nods to the prior Gens in the form of pre-evolutions, evolutions, and Mega Evolutions, but when there's a low amount of new Pokemon in a generation to begin with and of that amount a significant amount is just extensions of already existing family-trees, that balance just feels off IMO and leads to that generation not having enough of its own "identity" since so much of what it contributed to the Pokemon world is just extensions of previous generations instead of it's own unique flavor and varieties of new Pokemon, if that makes any sense.
It's not the Mega Evolutions themselves I have a problem with, but just how many of them there are in Gen VI in comparison to the relatively few new family trees of "Kalos-native" Pokemon, just like the respective problems in Gen II and Gen IV as those Gens struggling to form their own unique identities as so much of what makes them what they are is tied to prior generations instead of truly being able to stand on their own and while that's fine in the expanded third version or whatever, that's not what I like to see in the main entries that mark the beginning of a new Generation at least. That might not exactly make sense, and apologize if that's the case since it's kind of tricky to put exactly what I'm getting at into words I guess since it's kind of a really abstract thing, but yeah, that's pretty much how I feel on this.
Even though I do consider Mega-Evo's 'mons in their own right, Pokedex stuff otherwise, I get what you're saying and I agree.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
This blob dude is getting fanart lol
UnnecessaryTodd
Member
People in this thread are arguing about completely different things. Joe especially you seem to be arguing points that Macka isn't.
There's a distinction between playing through the storyline of the game, and the entirety of the game. Pokemon is at least 50% end-game content (if not more), in that most of the time spent playing is done after the E4 is beaten. What Macka is arguing is that Mega-Evolutions, and by extension the lack of new evolutionary lines in Gen VI made his first playthrough of XY somewhat disappointing, as he was not able to experience the new gen with the variety of new pokemon he would've liked to. As Shiron said it's about the game having its own identity when played. He never argued that Mega-Evolutions don't count, simply that by proxy of them taking up 1/3 of the "new pokemon" slots, and a maximum of ONE being allowed in your team, and of that ONE it has to be a previous gen pokemon as no Gen 6 pokemon have Megas, and that more than half of the potential mega-evolutions are locked until post E4, it drastically cuts down on the options and variety that has been allowed to the player in selecting a team of pokemon, moreso than any other generation including II/IV.
I agree with Macka in that it did make XY feel a little barren despite the diversity on a first playthrough where I wanted everything to be as new as possible, but I also LOVED the diversity it had on a second playthrough. I consider XY to be the best games in the series for their pokemon diversity and region alone, it's just a little disappointing that playing through the game I only really got to play with and experience a small handful of new pokemon and that I struggled to find a team of 6 new ones that I felt comfortable with.
Mega-Evolutions count, that's obvious to me and I don't think anybody should really argue otherwise, but it's also undeniable that they are at the expense of new species of pokemon. Mega-Evolutions are undoubtedly new pokemon, but from a design perspective and in practice through the initial playthrough they feel different to regular pokemon, and during a vanilla playthrough of XY the options are extremely limited for Mega-Evolutions and by extension the new pokemon choices.
There's a distinction between playing through the storyline of the game, and the entirety of the game. Pokemon is at least 50% end-game content (if not more), in that most of the time spent playing is done after the E4 is beaten. What Macka is arguing is that Mega-Evolutions, and by extension the lack of new evolutionary lines in Gen VI made his first playthrough of XY somewhat disappointing, as he was not able to experience the new gen with the variety of new pokemon he would've liked to. As Shiron said it's about the game having its own identity when played. He never argued that Mega-Evolutions don't count, simply that by proxy of them taking up 1/3 of the "new pokemon" slots, and a maximum of ONE being allowed in your team, and of that ONE it has to be a previous gen pokemon as no Gen 6 pokemon have Megas, and that more than half of the potential mega-evolutions are locked until post E4, it drastically cuts down on the options and variety that has been allowed to the player in selecting a team of pokemon, moreso than any other generation including II/IV.
I agree with Macka in that it did make XY feel a little barren despite the diversity on a first playthrough where I wanted everything to be as new as possible, but I also LOVED the diversity it had on a second playthrough. I consider XY to be the best games in the series for their pokemon diversity and region alone, it's just a little disappointing that playing through the game I only really got to play with and experience a small handful of new pokemon and that I struggled to find a team of 6 new ones that I felt comfortable with.
Mega-Evolutions count, that's obvious to me and I don't think anybody should really argue otherwise, but it's also undeniable that they are at the expense of new species of pokemon. Mega-Evolutions are undoubtedly new pokemon, but from a design perspective and in practice through the initial playthrough they feel different to regular pokemon, and during a vanilla playthrough of XY the options are extremely limited for Mega-Evolutions and by extension the new pokemon choices.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Mods gave an okay sign!
Here's the pic in question.
I hope someone gets to snap Blobby.
Here's the pic in question.
I hope someone gets to snap Blobby.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Bumping because finally, there's a capture of this "new creature"
http://webm.host/d3cc4/
Enjoy the cuteness
http://webm.host/d3cc4/
Enjoy the cuteness
Not75Drops
Member
That last sketch was pretty much spot on then
It's very unlikely they'll leave it a mystery too long. Still betting on a Worlds reveal
Note: the above is speculation and not indicative of insider knowledge
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah I must agree that the sketches were very spot-on.
Exterminieren
Banned
Yeah, I'd be very surprised if that had anything to do with Zygarde. The shade of green's not even similar.
Mr. Pointy
Member
I think it'll be a 6.5th / 7th Gen base form Pokemon.
Beyonce Beytwice
Member
Me too, similar to Kecleon back before gen III.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Is it August 21st yet? X_x
I bet this Pokémon isn't even in Z and we won't get a name for it until the marketing build up for next year's movie and it won't even be mentioned in the Z announcement.
I'd say that's a lock, it already happened in the past. It would be veeery surprising if they added a completely new Pokemon mid-gen.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh shit.
The blob has a "dead" eye on its right. Zygarde also has a dead eye (check its model, its right eye doesn't glisten nor is it colored green, it just remains white without flashing like the other hexagonical whites). Also the red spot is hexagonical.
You can see the dead right eye here
The blob has a "dead" eye on its right. Zygarde also has a dead eye (check its model, its right eye doesn't glisten nor is it colored green, it just remains white without flashing like the other hexagonical whites). Also the red spot is hexagonical.
You can see the dead right eye here
ArchedThunder
Banned
Is it? It looks like an oval to me.Oh shit.
The blob has a "dead" eye on its right. Zygarde also has a dead eye (check its model, its right eye doesn't glisten nor is it colored green, it just remains white without flashing like the other hexagonical whites). Also the red spot is hexagonical.
You can see the dead right eye here
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh shit.
The blob has a "dead" eye on its right. Zygarde also has a dead eye (check its model, its right eye doesn't glisten nor is it colored green, it just remains white without flashing like the other hexagonical whites). Also the red spot is hexagonical.
You can see the dead right eye here
It's actually on its left eye though
Those animations appear to have been flipped. The creator doesn't seem to realise that some Pokémon are asymmetrical so flipping can be an issue.
Bumping because finally, there's a capture of this "new creature"
http://webm.host/d3cc4/
Enjoy the cuteness
Daw it's cute, now to play the waiting game for more information to be released.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
It's actually on its left eye though
Those animations appear to have been flipped. The creator doesn't seem to realise that some Pokémon are asymmetrical so flipping can be an issue.
So I guess this means the white eye is the "living" eye then if it matches Zygote.
Yeah I'll call it Zygote because it looks like a mutant sperm cell.