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nomoment
Member
(08-17-2005, 03:23 AM)
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ManaByte
Banned
(08-17-2005, 03:28 AM)
SpiderJerusalem
Member
(08-17-2005, 03:33 AM)
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Bleh I know he looks at pics for things from meeting him at cons, I don't care. I love his art. :P Fuck Liefeld, btw.
GoutPatrol
Forgotten in his cell
(08-17-2005, 03:35 AM)
GoutPatrol's Avatar
Is that 2nd one Freddy Prince Jr?

Because I just can't tell who that is.
Dreamfixx
I don't know shit about shit
(08-17-2005, 03:41 AM)
It's Topher Grace, I think that's from the poster to Win a Date with Tad Hamilton.

BTW, I don't think artists should be called out for using references. It's just that Liefield can't fucking draw.
ManaByte
Banned
(08-17-2005, 03:42 AM)

Originally Posted by Dreamfixx

It's just that Liefield can't fucking draw.

Yet his comics actually sell to people.
Brannon
Ladies! On my signal,
unleash boobs.
(08-17-2005, 03:43 AM)
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:D That's pretty damn funny for some reason.
Ninja Scooter
bow down to the
Kings in Raider hats
(08-17-2005, 03:43 AM)
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i dont get it. How do you know he traced? How is this any different from Alex Ross taking pictures of people in the poses he wants to paint/draw beforehand?
Macam
Member
(08-17-2005, 03:49 AM)
I don't even know how people actually catch this stuff given that the references could be from anyhthing.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
(08-17-2005, 03:53 AM)
HomerSimpson-Man's Avatar
So he used real life or close to real life references for poses and images, what's the problem again? It's art. Never drawn from reference before or something, especially regarding real people?
Matlock
Banned
(08-17-2005, 04:44 AM)
I've always suspected as such--most of his old covers were pinup photogs airbrushed over. :p
J2 Cool
Member
(08-17-2005, 04:59 AM)
yeah, that's crap given how many people out there wouldn't go to that. Alex Ross meanwhile Im not a huge fan of like some others, but he is fantastic at rendering. It's not like it's incredibly simple to create paintings so close to real life. Not to mention the thinking involved in using humans to create superhuman like actions. Take a lot of creative thinking. This is kinda weak, but whatever.
allegate
Member
(08-17-2005, 05:18 AM)
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as good a place as any I guess: what is this from?

FightyF
Banned
(08-17-2005, 05:37 AM)
I'm doing the exact same thing as well, haven't actually started yet but will next month.

It's been years since I've drawn, and I need to come up with concept art for my little MOD which features mechs (more of the Japanese style, but kinda my own style).

So I've downloaded many pics of superhero poses off the net, and I also downloaded pics of concept cars.

Using the poses, I will trace them (not exactly, but keep the bodily form and shape quite similar) and in it's place some shielding, and this shielding's look will be influenced by these concept cars. I wanted mechs that were distinct, and not considered "anime" off the bat. Very humanoid, just like anime Mechs, but something very exotic and sexy looking. The same feeling someone gets when they see a car like THIS , I want the person to have when they see one of these Mechs.

Anyways, sorry for being off topic.

I think that if someone wants a realistic look to their art, it doesn't hurt to reference real life.

Some people lack certain skills, and make up for it in other ways. As a musician, I know I can make killer hooks and melodies, but my song structures are always whack.

In my latest track, I've completely copied the song structure, mimicking how long the intro lasts,when the breakdown kicks in, and how many bars the out-tro should last. The end result was pretty good. Hmm...I'm just talking about myself this entire post :P

edit
please excuse my grammar and spelling....f*ck I'm getting bad!
belgurdo
Banned
(08-17-2005, 05:46 AM)

Originally Posted by Fight for Freeform

I'm doing the exact same thing as well, haven't actually started yet but will next month.

It's been years since I've drawn, and I need to come up with concept art for my little MOD which features mechs (more of the Japanese style, but kinda my own style).

So I've downloaded many pics of superhero poses off the net, and I also downloaded pics of concept cars.

Using the poses, I will trace them (not exactly, but keep the bodily form and shape quite similar) and in it's place some shielding, and this shielding's look will be influenced by these concept cars. I wanted mechs that were distinct, and not considered "anime" off the bat. Very humanoid, just like anime Mechs, but something very exotic and sexy looking. The same feeling someone gets when they see a car like THIS , I want the person to have when they see one of these Mechs.

Anyways, sorry for being off topic.


I think that if someone wants a realistic look to their art, it doesn't hurt to reference real life.

Some people lack certain skills, and make up for it in other ways. As a musician, I know I can make killer hooks and melodies, but my song structures are always whack.

In my latest track, I've completely copied the song structure, mimicking how long the intro lasts,when the breakdown kicks in, and how many bars the out-tro should last. The end result was pretty good. Hmm...I'm just talking about myself this entire post :P

edit
please excuse my grammar and spelling....f*ck I'm getting bad!

I keep a large folder of magazine clippings, printed illustrations, and photos for drawing references. Sometimes, artists just can't draw everything
Matlock
Banned
(08-17-2005, 06:04 AM)

Originally Posted by bune duggy

as good a place as any I guess: what is this from?

If it's the tits? Grenadier.
If it's a picture of a guy? Charlie Frye.
If it's anime dude? Lupin.
Rorschach
Quis custodiet ipsos Batman?
(08-17-2005, 06:07 AM)
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This is a lot different than Liefeld tracing existing art (and adding teh cheekbones!) and not crediting the original artists.

[edit] what was the third image?
Laguna X
Nintendogs Member
(08-17-2005, 08:48 AM)
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Btw, there's a huge difference between tracing and drawing from references (life or otherwise). Just want to make that clear for those folks who think using references is some kind of cheat. It isn't.

Also, there are times when tracing is acceptable. I will trace my own rough sketches to get cleaner lines for inking or coloring, for instance. The Wonder Woman I did for the ART thread is an example of when it's acceptable to trace. I did the pencils freehand using a photo reference for the pose and to make sure I got Diana's outfit correct. I then traced what I wanted over to a clean sheet of paper where I laid down the inks. Threw that into a scanner and colored it in photoshop.
Laguna X
Nintendogs Member
(08-17-2005, 09:01 AM)
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I just took a look at several covers done by Land and they were all pretty spectacular. It'd be shame if most of them were the result of tracing. If most of it was freehand, with or without references, then I gotta say he's got some mad talent.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(08-17-2005, 03:38 PM)
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Land does trace. Arguably Ross comes damn close to tracing his pencils. The one example is if you look at the Kingdom Come TPB and he has a shot of the actor for Orion and then the scene where Orion and Superman meet. The pencils for that scene looked traced (even doing a PS comparison) from the photo.

Whatever. I don't care one way or another. My problem with Land (and Ross) is that there stuff looks SOOO real (Justice and UFF are perfect examples) that it takes me out of the book. It looks like photographs or paintings with word baloons slapped on them.

SHIT! Actually what it looks like (just thought of this) is bad fucking photoshops.. LOL!! Looks like someone took fine art or photos and just photoshopped them with some word balloons..

Both of them should stick with covers. That is definitely where their art shines the best.
Outcast2004
Banned
(08-17-2005, 04:49 PM)
The people screaming "TRACER" obviously aren't artists themselves....

Well I am, so listen up...

Photo reference is a huge part of what you do. No one draws completely from memory, influences and reference can be taken from many different forms of media.

Ross's stuff is great, but he does almost nothing unless he's got a photo of reference with one of his character models. You need that when you are doing high quality color work for lighting and color depth. There's no "tracing", it's all freehanded from a photo probably taped on the drafting board next to their piece they are working on.

Besides, a lot of Ross's stuff is ripped from older comic panels INTENTIONALLY. He's a very old school guy and like to show respect for the former artist by basically redrawing and painting their panel or page.

It doesn't matter how great your stuff looks, if the lighting is off or proportions not right it will throw off the whole piece.

This isn't Liefeld we're talking about here, he steals entire page layouts from other comic artists and slap his own lame character in them.

For myself, I have difficulty getting the nuances of the hands down so I use a lot of reference for that. That isn't cheating. Every art teacher I've ever had as always said "Draw what you see, not what you know", it's great advice too.

I don't even consider inking "tracng", there's a lot to that as well. A good inker can bad a bad piece of art goood and the other way around.
Last edited by Outcast2004; 08-17-2005 at 04:56 PM.
allegate
Member
(08-17-2005, 06:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Matlock

If it's the tits? Grenadier.
If it's a picture of a guy? Charlie Frye.
If it's anime dude? Lupin.

so it's dynamic? I've only seen the Grenadier one.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(08-17-2005, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Outcast2004

The people screaming "TRACER" obviously aren't artists themselves....

Well I am, so listen up...

Photo reference is a huge part of what you do. No one draws completely from memory, influences and reference can be taken from many different forms of media.

Ross's stuff is great, but he does almost nothing unless he's got a photo of reference with one of his character models. You need that when you are doing high quality color work for lighting and color depth. There's no "tracing", it's all freehanded from a photo probably taped on the drafting board next to their piece they are working on.

Besides, a lot of Ross's stuff is ripped from older comic panels INTENTIONALLY. He's a very old school guy and like to show respect for the former artist by basically redrawing and painting their panel or page.

It doesn't matter how great your stuff looks, if the lighting is off or proportions not right it will throw off the whole piece.

This isn't Liefeld we're talking about here, he steals entire page layouts from other comic artists and slap his own lame character in them.

For myself, I have difficulty getting the nuances of the hands down so I use a lot of reference for that. That isn't cheating. Every art teacher I've ever had as always said "Draw what you see, not what you know", it's great advice too.

I don't even consider inking "tracng", there's a lot to that as well. A good inker can bad a bad piece of art goood and the other way around.

this is all fine and whatnot, but in Ross' case with the Kingdom Come TPB and LAnd's case with the infamous Sojourn/SI incident, they are LINE PERFECT copies. I understand drawing from life and even drawing from reference, but as has been shown with both of these pieces through photoshop, every last line and nuance lines up. Not even the slightest variation in most cases.
Outcast2004
Banned
(08-17-2005, 08:07 PM)

Originally Posted by borghe

this is all fine and whatnot, but in Ross' case with the Kingdom Come TPB and LAnd's case with the infamous Sojourn/SI incident, they are LINE PERFECT copies. I understand drawing from life and even drawing from reference, but as has been shown with both of these pieces through photoshop, every last line and nuance lines up. Not even the slightest variation in most cases.

That was Ross's intention. He does that all the time, he likes to copy things that in is mind stand out. Be it a movie scene, comic panel, a specific actor as one of the charactors. Look at more of his work and you'll see this pretty well, especially if you are well versed in movies and older comics.

I just don't think you really understand why you'd use photo reference for drawings. It's something every artist, EVERY artist does. Just open your eyes and you'll see that.

Perhaps that was Land's intention. Perhaps he liked that scene from Troy and wanted that same type of shot in his book. I can't speak for him, but you can't knock a guy for doing something EVERY artist does.
borghe
Loves the Greater Toronto Area
(08-17-2005, 08:18 PM)
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every artists does it at some point and time. Not every artists does it ALL the time. That is the point everyone else is making. The point I am making is that IMHO the style is not at all conducive to a sequential art storytelling format. At least in terms of comic books. As I already said, it ends up looking like bad photoshops of real life scenes with word balloons pasted over.

You also gloss over the point that it is one thing to draw from reference, and entirely other matter to actually take the original to a light table.
Outcast2004
Banned
(08-17-2005, 08:25 PM)

Originally Posted by borghe

You also gloss over the point that it is one thing to draw from reference, and entirely other matter to actually take the original to a light table.

No, and I really dont think thats the case at all.

I've seen Ross work, he's that good. He puts a photo next to his board and goes to town. I can't speak for Land, as I've never met the guy or seen him work, but I doubt he "light tables" his stuff as you seem to suggest. Unless you know for sure, that's a harsh accusation to lay down on a professional artist.

You're trying to villify an artist for something that's extremly common knowledge and you just now caught on to it. Once again, this is something that every artist does if they can't visualize something right in their minds. All you have to do is look, you'll find stuff you've seen out of movies, other comics, advertisements.

Just about any artist will have FILES full of photo reference to use. Everything from buildings, to people, animals, cars, you name it.

BTW, good luck tryng to light table through bristol board. You won't see much.
Last edited by Outcast2004; 08-17-2005 at 08:31 PM.
Dan
Currently boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
(08-17-2005, 08:28 PM)
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Even before the Topher Grace pic fully loaded I instantly knew the reference, and it was quickly confirmed.

That's pretty weak. At the very least, if you're going to use references so extensively, don't use them from heavily circulated materials.
Laguna X
Nintendogs Member
(08-17-2005, 08:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Outcast2004

BTW, good luck tryng to light table through bristol board. You won't see much.

You bring up a pretty good point. I've never tried it myself, but I can't imagine it being easy to trace through bristol board. For those who don't know, bristol board is really thick. Still, it is possible to apply a trace through tracing paper or via projector.
nomoment
Member
(08-17-2005, 08:54 PM)
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The difference between Greg Land and a photo-reference artist like Alex Ross? Alex Ross takes his own photos for reference, while Land traces directly from copyrighted images.

Land traces extensively - proof is from his work in any sequential comic. Take his recently Ultimate Fantastic Four issues, for instance. Sue Storm's face looks different in every panel. When you're relying so heavily on copyrighted images, and passing it off as your own art, you're walking a fine line.
The Take Out Bandit
grrrrrrr bungle snitches!
rrrrrrrrrrrrr baba britches!
sumthin sumthin itches!
DRAGGGUUULLLAAA!!!
(08-20-2005, 03:28 AM)
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The difference between Alex Ross, and folks that aren't Alex Ross is that Alex Ross fucking ROCKS!

He nails the iconic aesthetic of the characters he draws time after time. Sure there have been a few misses, but when you look at one of his images it's unmistakably Superman and not - say, Ben Affleck or Pam Anderson if you're Greg Horn.

Alex Ross > * Faux Photorealistic Funnybook illustrators.

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