[WinFonda]

Would it really be worth all the trouble of getting all the 3rd parties on board?

Do you like video games?

[AniHawk]

Do you like video games?

Is the Space Pope a lizard?

[Somnid]

Is the Space Pope a lizard?

Reptilian.

[Dragona Akehi]

Do you like video games?

Care to elaborate on that response?

[WinFonda]

Care to elaborate on that response?

I don't see how we can be so dismissive of 3rd party developers. They make games. They're creators. That's a good enough reason alone to court them in Japan or anywhere else.

[Yoboman]

Not necessarily. PSP was beating the DS for most of 2008 in Japan, but we all know how much that affected the handheld war. I can easily see something similar happening to PS3 vs. Wii, where they stay somewhat close in Japan but Wii destroys PS3 worldwide.

True but that's more due to a lack of applicable software on PSP that appeals to the western markets. Right now DS is selling on the same sort of steam that continued to propel GBA for years. If any sort of software shift took place, it only brought more Japanese oriented software to PSP. You can't really say that about PS3, it's a lot more Western oriented to begin with.

I was more referring to the original shift towards DS and Wii, both of which started in Japan and slowly took root in America and Europe further down the track. Though a LOT faster with Wii

[donny2112]

MHTri and DQX. Both huge Japan-specific actions. Not enough? Probably. But to say they did nothing would be incorrect.

Which would be why I said they haven't taken "pretty much" any Japan-specific actions and what they have done isn't nearly enough. Wii in Japan needs some TLC, and it's needed it for a long time now.

Doesn't exactly answer the question, but, as further evidence, Geimin also has the update for Love Plus on their 2009 ranking (before). And you may noticed they don't have MKWii LTD updated to the last one that appeared online (2,355,816). Considering 4,798 is more than 4,359 (duh), it would make sense if Love Plus was in the Top 30 and pushed MKWii out of it.

Excellent point on MKWii, and I didn't even think to check GEIMIN's 2009 Top 30 combo rankings. :)

I think that is overstating things a bit. It had a bad 2 months or so when demand was met, but starting with Wii Fit it had a massive holiday and sold 40K plus for most of 2008. I mean, short term, from Nov, 2007 through April 2008 Nintendo released Galaxy, WiiFit, Smash Bros, and Mario Kart in Japan. Don't know how much more they could have done for that period.

Remember how we were talking about if Wii would drop below 40K before or after Mario Kart Wii's release? It wasn't being discussed in a "good" sense. Super Mario Galaxy's near bomba performance before the NSMB DS comparison commercials, the string of B-level bombs in late November/early December; we knew things were not right for Wii in Japan by December 2007.

2. Up until this year, the Wii was crushing the competition in Japan anyway, so there was no urgency to address sales.

It's not usually about what the "competition" is doing for Nintendo when it comes to the Wii.

If the Wii sells less in Japan, that just means more shipments for US/EU.

Short-sighted even if it is the case. The shortages were always going to be eventually cleared up in the U.S. The performance of the Wii getting better was never a sure thing, in comparison.

Something else to consider: even if the Wii never recovers in Japan, so what? It would take a miracle for the PS3 to catch up LTD anyway, and it's not like it could lose more 3rd party support than it has now anyway. Japan HW sales are still minute compared to US and Europe, where the Wii is still selling great. Sure, Nintendo would like to sell more Wii's in Japan, but is it such a big issue? Would it really be worth all the trouble of getting all the 3rd parties on board?

LTD, Wii has won Japan. PS3 will not catch up. That's also not the issue. I'm also not too concerned with third-parties. I am concerned with Nintendo sitting on its butt watching the Wii nosedive in Japan for the last two years. Japan should've had Wii Sports 2/Advanced (not WSR) in Fall 2007, even if it was never released elsewhere. Japan should've had a price cut in 2008, even if it didn't get a cut elsewhere. Nintendo has done 1 Mario Party, 1 Wario Ware (despite two additional control schemes being released for Wii), and has been stupid at advertising its own products (e.g. short announcement/release on mid-tier games) over its three years in Japan. I'm upset at Nintendo for Nintendo, not for third-parties. Third-parties are their own kind of stupid for not supporting the Wii full-blast in Japan and everywhere else, but Wii's sales in Japan are mostly due to Nintendo's action/inactions. If third-parties had supported Wii full-blast, most might've not even realized Nintendo was being so inept, but it wouldn't have changed their level of ineptness.

[charlequin]

Now if we add the FF effect + December, PS3 should do over 200k

I don't think you can really just add those things together and call it a conclusion. People buying a PS3 "for FFXIII" aren't just a disparate set on top of people buying a PS3 "for the holiday"; a lot of those people are going to be the same people.

250k is the meaningful ceiling of the Wii and PS2 in single-week December sales and I don't think PS3 is going to whiff that. The Slim baseline plus FFXII sounds more like a 180-200k week to me.

I think that is overstating things a bit.

Right. More correct would be to say that I knew, and no one believed me.

[schuelma]

Right. More correct would be to say that I knew, and no one believed me.

If only Iwata had a gaf account.

[vicissitudes]

Do you like video games?

Let me rephrase that.

Would it really be worth it FOR NINTENDO to make all that much effort to court 3rd parties?

It has nothing to do with me.

And personally, I have no interest in owning a Wii so I don't care either

I was more referring to the original shift towards DS and Wii, both of which started in Japan and slowly took root in America and Europe further down the track. Though a LOT faster with Wii

Hmm good point, it's been so long since the DS was taking off in Japan while getting beat by the PSP in the US. Those were strange times. And to be honest, up until the August 2009 NPDs the Wii was definitely losing steam in the US and I thought it would follow Japan's downhill slide, but while the price cut did almost nothing in Japan it's really helped the Wii in the US and EU, so now I'm not so sure what's going to happen with the Wii. It could lose steam again in 2010 or keep selling, who knows.

It's not usually about what the "competition" is doing for Nintendo when it comes to the Wii. Short-sighted even if it is the case. The shortages were always going to be eventually cleared up in the U.S. The performance of the Wii getting better was never a sure thing, in comparison.

Well, Nintendo was adamant about not lowering the price of the Wii this year until the PS3 slim took off, so I think the competition does influence Nintendo quite a bit. And back in 2007/2008 when Nintendo kept refusing to ramp up production of the Wii, no one really knew what would happen to the shortages. People said the shortages would end for 2 years before production really caught up late 2008.

LTD, Wii has won Japan. PS3 will not catch up. That's also not the issue. I'm also not too concerned with third-parties. I am concerned with Nintendo sitting on its butt watching the Wii nosedive in Japan for the last two years. Japan should've had Wii Sports 2/Advanced (not WSR) in Fall 2007, even if it was never released elsewhere. Japan should've had a price cut in 2008, even if it didn't get a cut elsewhere. Nintendo has done 1 Mario Party, 1 Wario Ware (despite two additional control schemes being released for Wii), and has been stupid at advertising its own products (e.g. short announcement/release on mid-tier games) over its three years in Japan. I'm upset at Nintendo for Nintendo, not for third-parties. Third-parties are their own kind of stupid for not supporting the Wii full-blast in Japan and everywhere else, but Wii's sales in Japan are mostly due to Nintendo's action/inactions. If third-parties had supported Wii full-blast, most might've not even realized Nintendo was being so inept, but it wouldn't have changed their level of ineptness.

Now you're blaming first-party output? Come on, in 3 years Nintendo has produced FIVE huge casual titles (wii sports, wii play, wii fit, WSR, WiiFit+), and FIVE big classic Nintendo games (galaxy, MP: corruption, Zelda: twilight princess, SSBBrawl, Mario Kart). Almost all of them have sold at least 1 million, some of them multi-millions, in an age where a console game selling 1 million is a rarity. On top of them, they've released stuff like Wii Music, Animal Crossing, Mario Party, games that have gone on to sell quite well. That's not counting the many more smaller titles I'm forgetting. The droughts that the Wii goes through are purely between major 1st party releases, because the 3rd party situation is so barren. Let's not downplay the incredible success Nintendo's 1st party Wii games have been this gen.

(I do agree that they should have cut the price earlier and also bundle in Wii Sports and later Wii Sports Resort)

[Olaeh]

Well, they did get Monster Hunter and Dragon Quest. I can't think of anything bigger they could've gotten for Japan. It's just they came late.... and with not much in between. Tales of and SW are pluses, but they're coming so late. They needed those back in 07-08'.

I don't think it would do much good to try and get support now. It's too late. Wii2 will be here in 2 years or sooner. They've got their hands full focusing on DS2 now anyway, probably. They can't risk loosing the handheld market, that's all that will matter in Japan.

[EDarkness]

LTD, Wii has won Japan. PS3 will not catch up. That's also not the issue. I'm also not too concerned with third-parties. I am concerned with Nintendo sitting on its butt watching the Wii nosedive in Japan for the last two years. Japan should've had Wii Sports 2/Advanced (not WSR) in Fall 2007, even if it was never released elsewhere. Japan should've had a price cut in 2008, even if it didn't get a cut elsewhere. Nintendo has done 1 Mario Party, 1 Wario Ware (despite two additional control schemes being released for Wii), and has been stupid at advertising its own products (e.g. short announcement/release on mid-tier games) over its three years in Japan. I'm upset at Nintendo for Nintendo, not for third-parties. Third-parties are their own kind of stupid for not supporting the Wii full-blast in Japan and everywhere else, but Wii's sales in Japan are mostly due to Nintendo's action/inactions. If third-parties had supported Wii full-blast, most might've not even realized Nintendo was being so inept, but it wouldn't have changed their level of ineptness.

I don't see how we can place that much blame on Nintendo. It's third parties that screwed up the show. The Wii has no Tekken, no Street Fighter, no RPGs, no Ace Combat, no AV games, no big named action games, no real Final Fantasy, no Kingdom Hearts, etc., etc. It does have a ton of mini-games, lots of obscure family games, some spin offs of big games that aren't that good, etc. What's picking up the slack are Nintendo's games. They can't do it alone, and as long as the third parties aren't making games for it, then the system is going to be floundering. The lack of big games by third parties to help get the "core" gamers into the mix has basically hurt the small third parties who threw their lot in with the Wii in the beginning.

I'm not saying that Nintendo is without fault, as they didn't try to shore up things when the early signs of decline were starting. Not only that, but simply poor versions of games like Animal Crossing didn't help either. I also agree that they should have dropped the price in Japan earlier, or added more colors early on to keep interest. Perhaps it's too late now to really do anything to save the Wii in Japan, but this situation will make some interesting reading 10 years from now.

[Dragona Akehi]

I don't see how we can place that much blame on Nintendo. It's third parties that screwed up the show. The Wii has no Tekken, no Street Fighter, no RPGs, no Ace Combat, no AV games, no big named action games, no real Final Fantasy, no Kingdom Hearts, etc., etc. It does have a ton of mini-games, lots of obscure family games, some spin offs of big games that aren't that good, etc. What's picking up the slack are Nintendo's games. They can't do it alone, and as long as the third parties aren't making games for it, then the system is going to be floundering. The lack of big games by third parties to help get the "core" gamers into the mix has basically hurt the small third parties who threw their lot in with the Wii in the beginning. I'm not saying that Nintendo is without fault, as they didn't try to shore up things when the early signs of decline were starting. Not only that, but simply poor versions of games like Animal Crossing didn't help either. I also agree that they should have dropped the price in Japan earlier, or added more colors early on to keep interest. Perhaps it's too late now to really do anything to save the Wii in Japan, but this situation will make some interesting reading 10 years from now.

Nintendo's responsibility lay in getting third parties interested in making games for the Wii. From their top teams, not c-grade experimental attempts.

[duckroll]

Nintendo's responsibility lay in getting third parties interested in making games for the Wii. From their top teams, not c-grade experimental attempts.

It's not Nintendo's fault. If Conduit sold a million copies like expected, I'm sure Halo would be on the Wii by now. We have to blame the consumers for not embracing superior gameplay. Clearly they are all anti-Nintendo.

There's also no reason why Crystal Bearers didn't perform on par with FFCC GC too, it's clear that since the GC days, the consumer market has shifted against Nintendo in a biased movement trying to snuff them out of the industry.

I'm here all day.

[EDarkness]

Nintendo's responsibility lay in getting third parties interested in making games for the Wii. From their top teams, not c-grade experimental attempts.

Knowing the industry in general, we shouldn't be surprised if Nintendo can't get them to bite. I can't fault them for that. They can't force people to make games for their system, and making games on the Wii was going to be a tall order. I don't doubt they were trying to get it done, or are still trying to get it done.

[Christopher]

I don't see how we can place that much blame on Nintendo. It's third parties that screwed up the show. The Wii has no Tekken, no Street Fighter, no RPGs, no Ace Combat, no AV games, no big named action games, no real Final Fantasy, no Kingdom Hearts, etc., etc. It does have a ton of mini-games, lots of obscure family games, some spin offs of big games that aren't that good, etc. What's picking up the slack are Nintendo's games. They can't do it alone, and as long as the third parties aren't making games for it, then the system is going to be floundering. The lack of big games by third parties to help get the "core" gamers into the mix has basically hurt the small third parties who threw their lot in with the Wii in the beginning. I'm not saying that Nintendo is without fault, as they didn't try to shore up things when the early signs of decline were starting. Not only that, but simply poor versions of games like Animal Crossing didn't help either. I also agree that they should have dropped the price in Japan earlier, or added more colors early on to keep interest. Perhaps it's too late now to really do anything to save the Wii in Japan, but this situation will make some interesting reading 10 years from now.

That's who the Wii is aimed at - everyone always parades the sales figures around, but whines when they don't get those kind of games.

[Dragona Akehi]

Knowing the industry in general, we shouldn't be surprised if Nintendo can't get them to bite. I can't fault them for that. They can't force people to make games for their system, and making games on the Wii was going to be a tall order. I don't doubt they were trying to get it done, or are still trying to get it done.

It's far more likely that Nintendo cannot spend money on exclusives, rather than not being able to convince third parties. The blame is entirely on Nintendo.

If the Wii wasn't attracting third party games on the basis of its massive install base, it is Nintendo's prerogative to convince them otherwise.

[Pureauthor]

That's who the Wii is aimed at - everyone always parades the sales figures around, but whines when they don't get those kind of games.

What? Everyone paraded around the sales figures as justification for the Wii getting those games.

[duckroll]

What? Everyone paraded around the sales figures as justification for the Wii getting those games.

What he's trying to say is that the reason the Wii has a huge installed base, is because Nintendo successfully went after another audience. An audience who might not really be interested in buying the types of games listed.

There might be some truth to have, because to be honest, I do feel that a lot of the people who play core games, either get their games on the DS/PSP, or also own either a 360 or a PS3. The core gamer market is so segmented now that a huge userbase on the Wii is not an immediate draw to any publisher to development team, unless they feel they will be able to also tap into the more casual market that Nintendo has captured so successfully.

This is largely why Ubisoft is pushing so hard for casual gaming stuff on the Wii, and not putting Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed, etc on the Wii.

[Nirolak]

This is largely why Ubisoft is pushing so hard for casual gaming stuff on the Wii, and not putting Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed, etc on the Wii.

I'd argue on a worldwide basis that the third party support for the Wii isn't even that bad, it's just not aimed at the core gamer.

With games like Mario & Sonic at the Olympics (Sega), EA Sports Active (EA), Shaun White Snowboarding (Ubisoft), Carnival Games (Take-Two), and Guitar Hero III (Activision) all selling multi-millions on the Wii, it's hard to argue that third parties aren't making large titles that sell very well on the platform. They're just not making games core gamers are interested in.

I mean, even in Japan companies like Namco have found success on the Wii. It's just with titles like Tatsujin instead of titles like Tekken.

[ethelred]

What? Everyone paraded around the sales figures as justification for the Wii getting those games.

Nintendo wanted to vacate the bloody, shark-infested Red Ocean everyone else was occupying, and instead find a Blue Ocean to dominate. Well, they found it, but it looks like the Blue Ocean is a lonely place to be.

[DR2K]

Does Nintendo even want 3rd parties to be successful? A sale for a 3rd party title is potentially a sale less for a 1st party title.

[duckroll]

Does Nintendo even want 3rd parties to be successful? A sale for a 3rd party title is potentially a sale less for a 1st party title.

Total and utter bullshit. This might actually be true for Sony and Microsoft, but it's not true at all for Nintendo. In fact, that is WHY 3rd parties are having a hard time agreeing to support Nintendo's platforms, because the people who buy Nintendo systems mostly buy it for first party games, and tend to ignore 3rd party offerings or treat them as second-class. Rightfully too, because Nintendo is one of the best game developers in the business. Too bad they're also the most anti-consumer business in the industry too.

[legend166]

The problem with this entire argument is its based on whether you believe it's up to the platform holder to go above and beyond simply selling hardware to get 3rd party developers on board.

If yes, you'll obviously argue that Nintendo hasn't done enough, and if not you'll lay all the blame on 3rd parties.

Now, I know that money hats is how it works, but I think it's a broken model.

[legend166]

Total and utter bullshit. This might actually be true for Sony and Microsoft, but it's not true at all for Nintendo. In fact, that is WHY 3rd parties are having a hard time agreeing to support Nintendo's platforms, because the people who buy Nintendo systems mostly buy it for first party games, and tend to ignore 3rd party offerings or treat them as second-class. Rightfully too, because Nintendo is one of the best game developers in the business. Too bad they're also the most anti-consumer business in the industry too.

I could think of other companies who are more anti-consumer than Nintendo.

[DR2K]

Total and utter bullshit. This might actually be true for Sony and Microsoft, but it's not true at all for Nintendo. In fact, that is WHY 3rd parties are having a hard time agreeing to support Nintendo's platforms, because the people who buy Nintendo systems mostly buy it for first party games, and tend to ignore 3rd party offerings or treat them as second-class. Rightfully too, because Nintendo is one of the best game developers in the business. Too bad they're also the most anti-consumer business in the industry too.

3rd party games are the meat and potatoes for the HD platforms. Nintendo is self efficient, if 3rd parties start taking off, then they might be a little more reliant on them than they would want to be.

[duckroll]

I could think of other companies who are more anti-consumer than Nintendo.

How many of them are the market leader in game hardware now?

[legend166]

How many of them are the market leader in game hardware now?

But that's not what you said?

[timetokill]

Nintendo wanted to vacate the bloody, shark-infested Red Ocean everyone else was occupying, and instead find a Blue Ocean to dominate. Well, they found it, but it looks like the Blue Ocean is a lonely place to be.

Must be why Sony and Microsoft are doing their best to join in... it must be because they can tell Nintendo feels lonely. That's totally it.

[EDarkness]

It's far more likely that Nintendo cannot spend money on exclusives, rather than not being able to convince third parties. The blame is entirely on Nintendo. If the Wii wasn't attracting third party games on the basis of its massive install base, it is Nintendo's prerogative to convince them otherwise.

I personally don't think it's their fault. Heh, any salesman can tell you that you can't sell everything to everyone. There will be groups that you simply can't convince without giving up too much. I don't doubt that Nintendo hasn't been trying to get more "core" games on the Wii, but they can't moneyhat everyone and they shouldn't either. They have to pick their battles, which is why I think going after Dragon Quest X on the Wii was a good move. Hopefully for them it will bear fruit.

I also don't buy this notion that Nintendo wanted ONLY the casuals. They were after all segments of the gaming population which is why I think they pushed out Zelda on the Wii first, then Mario and Smash Bros. Last I checked these are "core" games. The issue was that third parties didn't try to really do anything with it. Maybe they were late to the game, maybe they didn't want to support the Wii with their top games. Either way, it was a lost opportunity that Nintendo is having to work around with their own games. I think the PS2 was successful because everyone jumped in with both feet...third parties and Sony. This wasn't the same this generation. When it looked like the Wii was gonna take the crown, there should have been a huge number of companies jump on.

The problem with this entire argument is its based on whether you believe it's up to the platform holder to go above and beyond simply selling hardware to get 3rd party developers on board. If yes, you'll obviously argue that Nintendo hasn't done enough, and if not you'll lay all the blame on 3rd parties. Now, I know that money hats is how it works, but I think it's a broken model.

I totally agree. I think both sides have to take some of the blame, but ultimately, I blame third parties for creating the landscape on the Wii.

[AniHawk]

But that's not what you said?

I was never good at Calvinball either.

[duckroll]

But that's not what you said?

Being in the position of market leader makes their anti-consumer practices have much more impact than anyone else. Because their actions actually have a serious impact on consumers, it makes them the most anti-consumer company in the industry now. Simple as that.

[timetokill]

Wait, wait... how is Nintendo anti-consumer, actually?

[duckroll]

Wait, wait... how is Nintendo anti-consumer, actually?

- Crap online infrastructure
- No option to add players encountered in an online game to a friends list
- Poor storage solutions for downloadable content and games
- Purchased digital content locked to system instead of account
- Region locked portable

Need I go on?

[timetokill]

- Crap online infrastructure
Not anti-consumer. Was PS2 anti-consumer because it had a "crap" online infrastructure? Is PS3 anti-consumer because their online infrastructure is less feature-rich than Microsoft's? What's the threshold? Or is Microsoft anti-consumer because they charge for theirs?

Or are you just using anti-consumer as a blanket term for not having enough features that you, personally, want? I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

- No option to add players encountered in an online game to a friends list
... Feeling better about my guess, there. This isn't anti-consumer. It's a lack of a feature, not an active stance against consumers as a whole.

- Poor storage solutions for downloadable content and games
Considering they've made it possible to use a SD card for everything, thus addressing the complaint that people didn't have enough space to download everything, wouldn't that be actually pro-consumer?

Or is it another caes of you just not getting exactly what you, personally, wanted -- and yet is a perfectly fine solution for most Wii owners?

- Purchased digital content locked to system instead of account
I've been able to get all of my old downloads from Nintendo after sending in my Wii for repair. And according to Nintendo, it was a new Wii (my memory was wiped, but Miis were re-added -- but locked from the transfer). Is this not the case for other people? I'm asking honestly here.

- Region locked portable
This is the only one I might agree with you on. But one thing hardly makes them "anti-consumer."

Need I go on?

No, please -- don't. It's clear you're going on a feature crusade at this point. If you want to do that, it would be just as easy to claim any company is incredibly anti-consumer. For instance, Sony:

- broke BC with PS2 in PS3 models
- didn't include HDMI cable with PS3
- only had two controller ports on PS2
- awful party implementation for online gaming
- charging cable for PS3 controllers is way too short
- PSP's far shorter battery life compared to its competitors, super anti-competitive
- saving/backup issues with game saves on PS3 -- see the "locked PS3 saves!" thread.. it could be far better, just like Nintendo's storage solution could be far better


... and so on and so forth.

There's a difference between product features and practices that are actively anti-consumer. A huge difference.

[Laguna]

The same things were said about NDS its first 2 years (only 1st party software sells etc.pp) and we know how it turned out to be. If they can´t deliver they don´sell. It´s that simple. Just take a look at NDS sales interesting and good games with a decent add campaign like Level5 games sell en mass in Japan and elswhere and with Inazuma Eleven a new hit IP after Layton. And then SQEX, they sold over a million of each of their DQremakes and DQ9 became the most successful Dragon Quest, their other big IP FF had a great start with FF3 but with FFGaiden they went so overboard and out of touch of the fanbase that its far behind both remakes saleswise. The same thing with most of Wiis quality 3rd party software and most recent CrystalBearers. The only one who actually tried was Capcom with Monster Hunter 3 and voila a million seller.

[VerTiGo]

Span Smasher = Artoon Zangeki = Sandlot Line Attack Heroes = Grezzo Cosmic Walker = Gaia

People aren't forgetting about those games, Nintendo is. Chances of any of those getting any decent marketing in Japan is slim, and the likelihood of any of these coming to NA is slim as well; and even justified by Nintendo due to poor Japanese sales performance. It's already happened with Another Code, Takt of Majic, Fatal Frame and Disaster.

Third-parties are putting up solid efforts of niche hardcore titles on the Wii in truth, but those are usually from smaller Japanese pubs and often sent to die because Nintendo hasn't helped the growth and appeal of those types of games on their platform.

If Nintendo won't market stuff like Excitebots, Sin and Punishment, WarioLand, etc. themselves how are pubs and/or developers like Atlus or MMV support to release titles with the confidence that they'll reach decent sales performance. I'm happy that Sky Crawlers and Fragile is coming over here, but they're chances to reach sales over 50,000 aren't that good.

[duckroll]

- Crap online infrastructure Not anti-consumer. Was PS2 anti-consumer because it had a "crap" online infrastructure? Is PS3 anti-consumer because their online infrastructure is less feature-rich than Microsoft's? What's the threshold? Or is Microsoft anti-consumer because they charge for theirs?

The PS2 had no online infrastructure. It is not part of the feature set. This is not about a feature list but how features are implemented. Try to understand that. Nintendo forces Friend Codes for both the DS and the Wii, because they feel this is a "superior" method which "protects" their young audience. That is an active stance they're taking in implementation of the service, which ultimately hurts consumers because of the lack of usability.

Or are you just using anti-consumer as a blanket term for not having enough features that you, personally, want? I'm pretty sure that's what it is. - No option to add players encountered in an online game to a friends list ... Feeling better about my guess, there. This isn't anti-consumer. It's a lack of a feature, not an active stance against consumers as a whole.

Nope, you're wrong again. It *is* an active stance and they've been pretty outspoken about it. They feel that by actually PREVENTING you from doing that, they are making the games "safer" for young audiences to prevent you from making friends through random online sessions so you can only repeatedly play with people you actually know outside of the game. This is bullshit. It is not about the lack of a feature, it's about how they actually decisively choose to implement this.

- Poor storage solutions for downloadable content and games Considering they've made it possible to use a SD card for everything, thus addressing the complaint that people didn't have enough space to download everything, wouldn't that be actually pro-consumer? Or is it another caes of you just not getting exactly what you, personally, wanted -- and yet is a perfectly fine solution for most Wii owners?

Can you run stuff off the SD card? If you can I will retract this point completely. If not, then the question beckons as to why not? Sure, it's "better" to be able to back stuff up on an SD card now, but why not just allow us to run stuff off the SD chard? It makes no sense. It's not an unreasonable demand because the standard of technology is such that pretty much every other hardware device allows this. Being backwards on purpose is anti-consumer.

- Purchased digital content locked to system instead of account I've been able to get all of my old downloads from Nintendo after sending in my Wii for repair. And according to Nintendo, it was a new Wii (my memory was wiped, but Miis were re-added -- but locked from the transfer). Is this not the case for other people? I'm asking honestly here.

Sure that's if you send it for repair. What if your Wii gets stolen? Or if you decide to buy a new color and sell your previous Wii? When you buy something digitally, it is understood that it is the account buying it. It is virtual. Based on the standards of digital content, it is rather unreasonable to tie something specifically to the hardware instead of the account. That's what I'm saying. It's just another weird deliberate choice which hurts consumer use in the end.

There's no benefit to the consumer with this decision, and there is in fact a loss of benefit, AND it goes against the standard practice. How is that not anti-consumer?

[VerTiGo]

Can you run stuff off the SD card? If you can I will retract this point completely. If not, then the question beckons as to why not? Sure, it's "better" to be able to back stuff up on an SD card now, but why not just allow us to run stuff off the SD chard? It makes no sense. It's not an unreasonable demand because the standard of technology is such that pretty much every other hardware device allows this. Being backwards on purpose is anti-consumer.

I think it loads off the SD card but fair load times. You need its internal memory to have a certain amount of space for loading them, or something like that. That little workaround was actually a decent effort on Nintendo's part to address a previous one. Still, the environment isn't ideal for game patches or digital downloads.

However, I think its technical limitations aren't that huge of a player in why hardcore games don't perform that great, or as to why the Wii isn't the healthiest platform for some third parties.

Friendcodes have to go ASAP though.

[duckroll]

Poor, poor PSP Go!

This is how the launch of a new portable SKU is supposed to look like: http://www.famitsu.com/game/news/1229831_1124.html

[perfectchaos007]

50./43. [NDS] You'll Incur Losses if You Remain Ignorant: How Money and Things Work DS (Nintendo) |System | This Week | | PSP | 45,197 | | NDS | 38,785 | | PS3 | 38,498 | | WII | 26,764 |

looks like Nintendo should learn from their first party video game that selling more systems = more money!

[JoshuaJSlone]

The Wii has no Tekken, no Street Fighter, no RPGs, no Ace Combat, no AV games, no big named action games, no real Final Fantasy, no Kingdom Hearts, etc., etc. It does have a ton of mini-games, lots of obscure family games, some spin offs of big games that aren't that good, etc.

That's who the Wii is aimed at - everyone always parades the sales figures around, but whines when they don't get those kind of games.

I can think of one publisher who has put a bit more effort into non-spinoffy non-C-team Wii games, and been rewarded with an insane 76% of the console's software sales.

This is largely why Ubisoft is pushing so hard for casual gaming stuff on the Wii, and not putting Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, Assassin's Creed, etc on the Wii.

They DID put Prince of Persia on Wii. Remember the great "Rename a two year old game and pretend it's new." strategy of The Two Thrones Rival Swords?

Being in the position of market leader makes their anti-consumer practices have much more impact than anyone else. Because their actions actually have a serious impact on consumers, it makes them the most anti-consumer company in the industry now. Simple as that.

If we want to get playful with our wording, I might say that since sales of both their hardware and software pass the 50% mark this generation in Japan, they've got by far the most consumers deciding they're pro-them.

3rd party games don't sell well on Wii despite the large userbase. MH3 sold about a million, but how much it was pushed by marketing ??? How many companies can afford such a marketing campaign ?

What of the top tier of any platform's games weren't heavily advertised?

[Moor-Angol]

The same things were said about NDS its first 2 years (only 1st party software sells etc.pp) and we know how it turned out to be. If they can´t deliver they don´sell. It´s that simple. Just take a look at NDS sales interesting and good games with a decent add campaign like Level5 games sell en mass in Japan and elswhere and with Inazuma Eleven a new hit IP after Layton. And then SQEX, they sold over a million of each of their DQremakes and DQ9 became the most successful Dragon Quest, their other big IP FF had a great start with FF3 but with FFGaiden they went so overboard and out of touch of the fanbase that its far behind both remakes saleswise. The same thing with most of Wiis quality 3rd party software and most recent CrystalBearers. The only one who actually tried was Capcom with Monster Hunter 3 and voila a million seller.

i don't agree with you.
3rd party games don't sell well on Wii despite the large userbase.
MH3 sold about a million, but how much it was pushed by marketing ???
How many companies can afford such a marketing campaign ?

it's not a question "only 1st party games sold well on DS during its first 2 years", cause in 15 days Wii will be a 3 years system on the market.
and in the latest weeks we had :

Super Robot Taisen - bombed (see GC and N64 numbers)
Sin & Punishment 2 - bombed (see N64 numbers)
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - bombed (see GC numbers)

i can't see actually a turning point in 3d party games sales, Wii is not different from recent Nintendo home systems, they sell well 1st party games and some 3d party, but the others sell horribly, not as we could expect from the market home leader.
and PS3 is becoming stronger week after week...

[timetokill]

The PS2 had no online infrastructure. It is not part of the feature set. This is not about a feature list but how features are implemented. Try to understand that. Nintendo forces Friend Codes for both the DS and the Wii, because they feel this is a "superior" method which "protects" their young audience. That is an active stance they're taking in implementation of the service, which ultimately hurts consumers because of the lack of usability. ... Nope, you're wrong again. It *is* an active stance and they've been pretty outspoken about it. They feel that by actually PREVENTING you from doing that, they are making the games "safer" for young audiences to prevent you from making friends through random online sessions so you can only repeatedly play with people you actually know outside of the game. This is bullshit. It is not about the lack of a feature, it's about how they actually decisively choose to implement this.

Still, the PS2 could go online, so why didn't they put in all those features? It was very anti-consumer of them to not allow you to use the PS2's internet connectivity and store friends and track them in a list and so on, right? And is the PS3 is anti-consumer because its feature set isn't as robust as Xbox Live's?

Yes, the Friend Codes are created and planned by Nintendo, but in order to be anti-consumer there actually has to be intent. They're using a method that is designed to protect players from unwanted contact with random strangers. Nintendo has always been a family-friendly company, so I'm not sure why you're surprised.

Nintendo didn't devise the system as a way to say "haha, SCREW YOU CONSUMERS!" As much as I dislike the Friend Codes system, it's simply there, and its part of the implementation. For us it might be frustrating, but for many parents out there it's a welcome feature. The implementation still allows you to "friend" people based on the game's implementation and having their code. Is it a horrible system for us here on GAF? Of course. It's still not part of a "screw the consumer" initiative on Nintendo's part. It's part of a free service, by the way.

Can you run stuff off the SD card? If you can I will retract this point completely. If not, then the question beckons as to why not? Sure, it's "better" to be able to back stuff up on an SD card now, but why not just allow us to run stuff off the SD chard? It makes no sense. It's not an unreasonable demand because the standard of technology is such that pretty much every other hardware device allows this. Being backwards on purpose is anti-consumer.

Yes, you are able to run games off the SD card. You are also able to download directly to your SD card from the Wii Shop, meaning you don't even have to go through and move the files around yourself. Nintendo listened to customers and added this feature in, and it works as well as you could want. I have a SD card in my Wii and I run games off of it all the time.

Sure that's if you send it for repair. What if your Wii gets stolen? Or if you decide to buy a new color and sell your previous Wii? When you buy something digitally, it is understood that it is the account buying it. It is virtual. Based on the standards of digital content, it is rather unreasonable to tie something specifically to the hardware instead of the account. That's what I'm saying. It's just another weird deliberate choice which hurts consumer use in the end.

I agree they should be tied to the account and redownloadable, and I hope they remedy this.

There's no benefit to the consumer with this decision, and there is in fact a loss of benefit, AND it goes against the standard practice. How is that not anti-consumer?

Going against the standard practice doesn't mean it's anti-consumer, and just because there's a loss of benefit in one area doesn't mean there is a gain in another. With the Wii Friend Codes system, for instance, it's about an increase in privacy and safety for younger users. For many parents that IS a benefit.

Also, there is still the ability to add friends of yours to the Wii's friends list, and gift them with games, send messages, game screenshots, and so on. It's not like there isn't a friends system whatsoever.


You also haven't commented on my list of, in comparison to your Nintendo list, then Sony is super anti-consumer. Do you agree with those points, or are they off-base?

[Laguna]

i don't agree with you. 3rd party games don't sell well on Wii despite the large userbase. MH3 sold about a million, but how much it was pushed by marketing ??? How many companies can afford such a marketing campaign ? it's not a question "only 1st party games sold well on DS during its first 2 years", cause in 15 days Wii will be a 3 years system on the market. and in the latest weeks we had : Super Robot Taisen - bombed (see GC and N64 numbers) Sin & Punishment 2 - bombed (see N64 numbers) Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - bombed (see GC numbers) i can't see actually a turning point in 3d party games sales, Wii is not different from recent Nintendo home systems, they sell well 1st party games and some 3d party, but the others sell horribly, not as we could expect from the market home leader. and PS3 is becoming stronger week after week...

And your comparisons are just super flawed. Do you even know Super Robot Taisen on Wii? Unpopular, C-tier mecha series for 8year old childrens instead of Gundam, Macross and other popular franchises, clunky and ugly 3D instead of the from fans beloved 2D-graphics.
Games like Sin&Punishment are niche as hell especially nowadays and actually is a Nintendo IP.
Crystal Bearers has nothing to do with Crystal Chronicles besides mythology. Crytsal Bearers got mediocre scores form Famitsu, has bizarre and to most not appealing gameplay/artdirection and has nothing in common with Final Fantasy so it just doesn´t make click to most FF fans.


And now tell me what games actually sell on PS3. Surprise, surprise games with atleast similar marketing effort like MH3.

[duckroll]

You also haven't commented on my list of, in comparison to your Nintendo list, then Sony is super anti-consumer. Do you agree with those points, or are they off-base?

If you want to get into that, then all I have to say is "The Wii isn't even capable of HD graphics" and it's all over. Do you really want to turn this into a stupid feature list? Or do you actually want to discuss about how Nintendo is actively making decisions which are hurting core gamers in terms of usability?

You claim that going against the standard is not being anti-consumer, and that losing one benefit does not mean there should be any gain in another. What you are basically saying is that a company can make an active decision which goes against the standard practice, which directly causes consumers to lose a benefit in usability without gaining ANY benefit in any other area, and this should not be seen as being anti-consumer. How would you explain that? Seriously.

[AniHawk]

When I think anti-consumer, I don't think of frustrating features, I think of fucking you over with prices and shit. The Wii was overpriced and so was the DS, and so is the DSi. They don't drop the prices of their games and the Player's Choice line seems to be pretty much dead. Then you look at accessories and see that one fully powered controller costs about $80 at retail. Now that's some grade-a bullshit.

On the plus side, they don't really make you buy a whole lot of extra shit in addition to controllers. If you want WiFi on the 360, that's another hundred bucks, and that system is supposed to be the pinnacle of online gaming ever. And on the Sony side, they used to release their first party titles $10 below the rest, but they stopped doing that and started charging what everyone else did. They raised the price by $10 just because the rest of the industry thought it was a good idea to fuck everyone over too.

[duckroll]

For the record, nothing beats the PSP Go in terms of being a stupid anti-consumer product. That is the benchmark for being overpriced, under-delivering, and basically retarded. But since it's bombing, I don't think we have to be too concerned about it at all.

[AniHawk]

For the record, nothing beats the PSP Go in terms of being a stupid anti-consumer product. That is the benchmark for being overpriced, under-delivering, and basically retarded. But since it's bombing, I don't think we have to be too concerned about it at all.

I hope someone gets a window seat for that one.

[gerg]

Calling Nintendo stupid and inept and those responsible for their own failure is one thing; calling them consistently "anti-consumer" is another. "Anti-consumer" =/= features that I dislike. (Although, logically, an anti-consumer feature would also happen to be a feature that I dislike.)