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The Active-Time Battle (ATB) System... Is it Overrated?

However, after going through my library the past few months and replaying old jrpg classics like those listed before, I've realized I do not care for the battle systems at all. In my opinion, these battle systems heavily relied on high agility, powerful attacks, offensive spells, and the occasional "heal all" item/spell, with little room for strategic planning and character buffs/debuffs outside a boss fight or two. They created an illusion of fast battles when in reality they simply fixed your movement speed. On top of it all, it become flat out frustrating to pick the right move under the pressure of being "Supernova-ed" by a tough boss. It was then when I came to the conclusion the more traditional turn-based battle systems like those found in Final Fantasy X, Xenosaga III, the Shin Megami Tensei series, and the Dragon Quest series are more engaging and satisfying.

Am I in the minority? Is the ATB system a viable gameplay mechanic? Is there something I'm just not understanding? What are your thoughts GAF?

Side note: Yes, I know Square Enix still use it in heavily modified ways as seen in Final Fantasy XII, the Final Fantasy XIII series, and Type-0. However, these incarnations share only the most basic functions of the games in the past (the gauge itself in most cases) and could almost be considered entirely different beasts.

You can boil most JRPGs to who can drain the other opponents HP down the fastest. Buffs and Debuffs don't really play any part in regular battles outside of harder bosses. The appeal of the ATB system has always been that you have some pressure during combat, but the WAIT mode is there in FF games if you want that. The cool thing about the some SMT games was the Press-Turn which gave you more turns if you played strategically. Dragon Quest, the few I have played have always been straight forward.

FFXIII used a slightly modified ATB, FFXII used the ADB, Active Dimension Battle, not the ATB. Type-0 was an action game.

You're probably right on that. However, this doesn't fix my issue with the actual battle speed and how it's locked to how fast the gauge moves. For example, the first few fights in Final Fantasy VII are the most painful due how slow the ATB gauge fills, and your often just sitting there waiting to make an obvious move. Meanwhile, in a game like Dragon Quest V, the speed of the battle mostly depends on how fast you can actually select your move (putting aside the length of attack/spell animations as those vary game-to-game). The break in-between turns can be as long or as short as you so please.

Edit: Granted, it may just be that I have not played enough ATB games to come to this conclusion. I'm definitely picking up I Am Setsuna this year, so there's time for me to re-evaluate my stance.

You can up the speed battle speed in the options menu, also the PS4 version can triple the speed. Trying to compare ATB with regular battle systems is a bit of a stretch, when you are comparing speeds. Some ATBs are way faster than some turn based games. Honestly the only uber slow ATB in my opinion was FFIX because of all the damn animations.

Honestly, I find the ATB gauge is more engaging than the passive nature of most turn based combat. You can make an argument that there is an element of timing with ATB games. FFX-2 in particular allowed you to chain attacks for more damage if you played it properly.

They've aged extraordinarily poorly and are a main reason why "turn-based" battles often get disparaged in RPG discussions. ATB combat is slow and almost never requires any interesting tactical choices or thought.

I disagree, I think they have aged just fine. I don't see how they are the main reason why "turn-based" battles are disparaged in discussions. Sure it can be slow at times, but most games let you increase the speed in the menus. The sad thing is some of the best uses of the ATB are in the most maligned FF games. FFXIII trilogy, and FFX-2 used the ATB system in great ways, albeit slightly modified.

Most JRPGs don't require much tactical choice or thought really.
 
Grandia did the same thing to much better effect, though. The timeline approach, allowing for interrupts and positioning in a turn based system, was way more tactically interesting than ATB mainly existing to rush you through menus.

I haven't played Grandia, especially 1 in a long time. You are quite correct. I think 1 had it too didn't it?
 

Aureon

Please do not let me serve on a jury. I am actually a crazy person.
Combat in FF games is mostly an excuse to have a truckton of RPG stuff in.
Combat wasn't ever the point, thereby, they made sure nobody would get stuck on it.
 

HawthorneKitty

Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Lightning Returns proves that ATB can be evolved into something spectacular to witness and execute; more of that please.
 
I think it would be interesting if a JRPG had an ATB-like system for normal encounters and a turn-based system for boss battles.
Sounds interesting, but it would be tough to make it work. You'd basically be asking the player to adapt to two styles of combat, one of which being very situational. I think games like Skies of Arcadia and Suikoden IV had something similar with having different kinds of battles (ship battles).
 

Koozek

Member
Most FFs and, honestly, most turn-based JRPGs in general are 95% braindead button-mashing, which is why it's ridiculous when folks hate on FFXV for that. I can't imagine playing them without Speed Mode anymore. And their combat wasn't inherently "deeper" just because it had menus. This post describes it well:
While I agree with you, I think that problem extends far beyond FF, and to almost every JRPG series.

The much-lauded difficulty of the SMT (and related Persona titles) comes almost entirely from a need to "think", or so people say, but really the vast majority of fights come down to the same sort of rote memorization. There is rarely a reason to not go into every single fight using your weakness-targeting attacks on each enemy, and then buffs/debuffs if you know you need them and/or know the enemy is weak to particular ones.

All of these systems that ignore things like positioning and timing tend to fall into the same position, IMO, and that's one of memorization and repetition being more important than any higher-level thinking or strategy.

It's one of the main reasons I like the move towards real-time, because it add another element of unpredictability.

Lightning Returns perfected ATB, imo. Had such a blast with it. Even snappier than FFX-2 and still strategic. You always have to stay on your toes and react quickly to audiovisual cues, using every buff/debuff and spell at your disposal. That's the direction SE should go if they decided to have a non-action-based system again for future FFs.

I just love twitch-based, real-time elements in battle-systems, like in the Shadow Hearts and Baten Kaitos series, maybe that's why LR resonates so much with me. Purely turn-based is too tedious and the time I waste is barely off-set by feeling more involved or challenged. When I played Persona 4 last year I only Auto-battled and didn't even look at the screen 90% of the time while I was fighting. How is that not a sign of bad game design? If I don't have to use anything else besides normal attacks, I won't, I mean, why waste resources. And if the game basically plays itself outside of boss-battles, why even bother with normal battles. I would've gladly just done the Social Links stuff instead.
 
I agree with the topic. It is also what discovered upon replays of classics. I still enjoy Chrono Trigger since enemy placement and movement on the map makes a difference with the time limit.

I do think it still has a place, you just have to make the battle system more engaging where it punishes players for just doing the same type of methods.
 

patapuf

Member
Grandia had the best ATB system and it's one of the best command based combat systems.

I wouldn't call it "overated", FF just isn't the best implementation of it.
 

SkyOdin

Member
If you were a fan of RPGs in the 90s, chances are you've played at least one game with an ATB system. The Squaresoft of old pioneered this system in Final Fantasy IV and continued it's use through the next whole decade in the series, along with additional titles like Chrono Trigger and Xenogears. When I first experienced these games, the battle systems created a sense of speed, finesse, and urgency for unmatched in any turn-based combat I've played.
...
However, after going through my library the past few months and replaying old jrpg classics like those listed before, I've realized I do not care for the battle systems at all. In my opinion, these battle systems heavily relied on high agility, powerful attacks, offensive spells, and the occasional "heal all" item/spell, with little room for strategic planning and character buffs/debuffs outside a boss fight or two. They created an illusion of fast battles when in reality they simply fixed your movement speed. On top of it all, it become flat out frustrating to pick the right move under the pressure of being "Supernova-ed" by a tough boss. It was then when I came to the conclusion the more traditional turn-based battle systems like those found in Final Fantasy X, Xenosaga III, the Shin Megami Tensei series, and the Dragon Quest series are more engaging and satisfying.
I think you are conflating different aspects of the traditional Final Fantasy combat experience. The ATB system at its core is nothing more than a system where a character can act when their ATB gauge fills up, but time is constantly moving. All of the other stuff you mention: reliance on powerful attack spells and special moves with occasional healing, is due to entirely unrelated parts of the game design. Those things are the result of several factors of game design found in the series that would be just as true if those games took place in a traditional turn-based framework.

The simple explanation here is that games such as Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger are, by design, extremely easy RPGs. They are designed around the idea that the player will murder everything with powerful multi-target attacks, then heal your characters up with powerful full-party healing. Despite being turn-based games, Final Fantasy I, II, III, and X use fundamentally similar strategy to Final Fantasy IV and VI. This is due to some common design aspects of the Final Fantasy series: there is generally a lack of aggro control, most party members are reasonably tough enough to survive several hits, healing magic is more efficient when used on all party members, multi-enemy attacks are commonly available, and spells and special moves can be used very many times (often are effectively unlimited in use).

BTW, Xenogears is a very different beast, and one that highlights many of the differences from the Final Fantasy series. First of all, you must have mis-remembered, but Xenogears is a pure turn-based RPG. It does not use the ATB system whatsoever. It uses the very common system used by FF Tactics or X, where characters who are fast take more turns, but there is no realtime game element. More importantly, it has a lot of notable differences from the Final Fantasy series in terms of those fundamentals I mentioned. For example, multi-target healing is much more restricted. FOr example, Citan can use multi-target healing spells, but it takes him an extra turn of set-up, making multi-target heal spells come with a significant delay. Billy has multi-target heals, but he is also extremely fragile (more so than most FF characters, relative to other party members). Furthermore, Gear combat in particular is very restrictive when it comes to both healing and using special moves. Fuel costs heavily restrict both healing and the heroes' multi-target attack skills, while the strong single target attack skills take multiple turns of set-up. This creates a completely different gameflow compared to any game from the Final Fantasy series.

Side note: Yes, I know Square Enix still use it in heavily modified ways as seen in Final Fantasy XII, the Final Fantasy XIII series, and Type-0. However, these incarnations share only the most basic functions of the games in the past (the gauge itself in most cases) and could almost be considered entirely different beasts.

That is the thing: the ATB system is that gauge. Final Fantasy XIII uses a completely traditional ATB system at its core. There are only a few key differences. First of all, the speed of the ATB gauge is significantly faster than usual for the series. Second, the player is allowed to queue up multiple actions, with more powerful actions having a larger time cost. To take these changes into account, the game utilizes AI control in order to make things more manageable. That's it.

The game includes a number of other significant gameplay changes though, which are independent of the ATB system. These cause the game to have a unique feel compared to other Final Fantasy games. Part of this is restricting healing to being single target only, while at the same time introducing a tank role that can control aggro. The introduction of the Break mechanic also completely changes how the player goes about doing damage to the enemy. However, these new mechanics are not dependent on being connected to FF XIII's version of the ATB system. In fact, they are fairly common in games that utilize other gameplay systems. Xenosaga Episode III, despite being a turn-based game, used a Break mechanic that was pretty similar to FF XIII's in many regards.

Now, I can understand being unhappy with the feeling of being rushed during critical moments in a boss fight under the ATB system. That added stress is the main point of the ATB system, and I can understand that some people don't like it. That's perfectly fair. However, the rest of your complaints about the ATB system don't actually have anything to do with the ATB system itself, so much as the fact that the Final Fantasy series is an easy series with a very low skill requirement designed to appeal to new RPG players and casual fans of the genre. Even then, there are a few Final Fantasy games that have a lot more gameplay depth than others, and these really show off the strengths of the ATB system. Final Fantasy V is a good example of this.
 
BTW, Xenogears is a very different beast, and one that highlights many of the differences from the Final Fantasy series. First of all, you must have mis-remembered, but Xenogears is a pure turn-based RPG. It does not use the ATB system whatsoever.

Well Xenogears is officially described by Square as using a variant of the Active Time Battle system, so it's easy to be confused.

Ironically, the Cross Sequence Battle system used in Chrono Cross is officially described as being an evolution of the Xenogears battle system, but not as a variant of ATB, yet it is closer to ATB than Xenogears is, because, even though the game pauses whenever you chose an action, each action executed still costs a different amount of "time points" that affects enemy turns, ally turns and buff/debuff durations.
 

Krejlooc

Banned
An entire topic full of people who obviously never played

pdsbat4.png
 

SkyOdin

Member
Couldn't agree more. It felt like the ATB system, but without all the bullshit. Wish they would bring out another game like this one.
If you enjoyed the FFX battle system, then I have good news for you! It was probably the most widely copied battle system during the PS2 days, and it is still not uncommon to see. Off the top of my head, Mega Man X: Command Mission, all three Xenosaga games, Wild ARMS 4 and 5, and more. Heck, older stuff like Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics use it too. The FFX approach to turn based combat has become one of the dominant forms of RPG gameplay.
 

ethomaz

Banned
If you enjoyed the FFX battle system, then I have good news for you! It was probably the most widely copied battle system during the PS2 days, and it is still not uncommon to see. Off the top of my head, Mega Man X: Command Mission, all three Xenosaga games, Wild ARMS 4 and 5, and more. Heck, older stuff like Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics use it too. The FFX approach to turn based combat has become one of the dominant forms of RPG gameplay.
It was dominant way before FFX.
 

Boney

Banned
Definately, going from turned base to ATB was a major step back in terms of design not because of the system itself but because of the simplification and automation of videogames. If you're able to get by with just standard physical attacks then what is ATB giving you?

With the way they ser designed they even make strategy or simple prediction a non element. You can heal once they hit you, not having to take a guess how or who is he going to hit, or just attack and see all attacks get redirected as you go as you ko standard enemies. If "wait" systems were disabled and overall difficulty curves were higher where it'd be impossible to keep up with enemies let alone overtake them every time, then they'd work out perfectly fine.

The best thing to come out of it are spells and strong we attacks having to take real time to charge up by filling a second gauge with different speed, locking your character into actions. This isn't taken advantage too much either and for the most part are neglible waiting times for the worst of them and almost immediate for the others. This could be replicated in turn based battles as Pokemon does it in charging a turn or rest a turn but it's fundamentally different still.

ATB doesn't have to be a weird compromise between real time action or turn based games, but designers have been so lazy with the system's over the years that rpg battle systems have become synonymous with antiquated systems that are not interval to major epics due to how presentation in videogames have evolved, which is a shame because there's a lot of value in this systems that are being lost as we go.
 

random25

Member
ATB is fine, but there are also a lot of good variations of turn-based combat in different RPGs. I won't call it overrated, but I don't want it to be the end all, be all for every FF game. Could have needed a shakeup like what they did in FFX (I'm not much a fan of that though).
 

sviri

Member
It really depends on the implementation.

12 = an hour of wtf is this, followed by liking it, and now I love it.
13 = disliked then, loathe now. Too fast, combined with battle system not trusting that I was capable enough to beat 12 FFs prior to this one.

4-9 = loved ATB then, but times were simpler. These implementations fail to hold up.

Any way I don't think they are overrated because they are not particularly highly rated at all today.
 

SkyOdin

Member
It was dominant way before FFX.

Well, I think the success of Final Fantasy X helped make it more common than it was before. In the SNES days, many RPGs tended to use the style of turn-based combat that Dragon Quest used: battles are broken up into discreet rounds with actions for each character determined at the start of the turn. That is how it worked in various series such as the Lufia games, Breath of Fire 1-4, Wild Arms 1-3, the Phantasy Star series, the SaGa series, and more. The Final Fantasy Tactics/Final Fantasy X style of eliminating unified rounds and issuing orders to characters at the moment they would act started to become more common in the PS1 generation. However, Final Fantasy X introduced some major innovations to that style of turn-based combat; most notably, the addition of an easy-to-read turn order list on the battle screen that used portraits or icons of the heroes and monsters to demonstrate the upcoming order of actions. That particularly innovation was widely copied in the PS2 era and to the modern day.
 

MilkBeard

Member
FFX handled it the best imo.

Yeah, it holds up really well.

That being said, I like ATB when it is quick paced. Final Fantasy 7 did it best. You could turn up the speed and keep it on active, and it feels pretty fresh for the most part (besides some occasional long animations).
 
Don't have a problem with ATB, have a problem with many non SMT turn based RPGs being too 'easy" and leaving little room to use things like buffs and status effects outside of bosses(even then status effects don't work on them most of the time)

Always laughed in FF7 remake threads when people kept calling the game strategic, 90% of the time you were mindlessly pressing attack to run through trash mobs.
 
It was dominant way before FFX.

Other games used FFX's CTB before? I don't think so.

FFX isn't a traditional turn based JRPG. It uses the CTB, or Conditional Turn-Based battle system which doesn't have the rounds of traditional systems, you can have more or less turns than your opponent based on different factors during the battle. You can see the turns in the act list change based on what spell or attack you want to use before committing.
 

Teknoman

Member
I just wish more games would use variations of turn based combat that also had ATB elements and their own thing ala Grandia or Panzer Dragoon Saga.
 
Other games used FFX's CTB before? I don't think so.

FFX isn't a traditional turn based JRPG. It uses the CTB, or Conditional Turn-Based battle system which doesn't have the rounds of traditional systems, you can have more or less turns than your opponent based on different factors during the battle. You can see the turns in the act list change based on what spell or attack you want to use before committing.

FFT used it, for one. There it was called Charge Time Battle, but it was basically the same time management system. The main difference is that it was incredibly tedious to view the act list, as it wasn't always on-screen like in FFX (you had to exit all command menus and enter it by pressing the Select button on the map if I recall correctly).

Sidenote: In Japan, FFX's CTB was called Count Time Battle.
 

Syril

Member
FFT used it, for one. There it was called Charge Time Battle, but it was basically the same time management system. The main difference is that it was incredibly tedious to view the act list, as it wasn't always on-screen like in FFX (you had to exit all command menus and enter it by pressing the Select button on the map if I recall correctly).

Sidenote: In Japan, FFX's CTB was called Count Time Battle.
FFT wasn't the same system despite having the turn order visible. FFT had characters getting their next turn after acting based on their speed stat with actions taking various amounts of time to execute, while FFX had everything execute instantly, but the action you did affected how long it would take to get your next turn.

FFT's charge time mechanic was essentially the same way that Xenogears' time meters worked where between turns they would constantly fill based on everyone's agility stat and the next character who reached the maximum would get their turn, except it also applied it to certain actions that worked as if they had their own speed stat and had to fill up their own CT gauge before they executed.
 
FFT wasn't the same system despite having the turn order visible. FFT had characters getting their next turn after acting based on their speed stat with actions taking various amounts of time to execute, while FFX had everything execute instantly, but the action you did affected how long it would take to get your next turn.

FFT's charge time mechanic was essentially the same way that Xenogears' time meters worked where between turns they would constantly fill based on everyone's agility stat and the next character who reached the maximum would get their turn, except it also applied it to certain actions that worked as if they had their own speed stat and had to fill up their own CT gauge before they executed.

That's a minor difference. That's like saying FFIV doesn't use the same system as the other ATB games because spells and techniques take various amounts of time to execute in that game.
 

Syril

Member
That's a minor difference. That's like saying FFIV doesn't use the same system as the other ATB games because spells and techniques take various amounts of time to execute in that game.
Yeah, I wouldn't call it the exact same system because of factors like that that would affect your decisions. Same with how FFVI and on had the ability to switch between multiple characters with full ATB gauges whereas in FFIV and FFV there was no way to let a character sit with a turn ready while still having someone else act.
 
FFT used it, for one. There it was called Charge Time Battle, but it was basically the same time management system. The main difference is that it was incredibly tedious to view the act list, as it wasn't always on-screen like in FFX (you had to exit all command menus and enter it by pressing the Select button on the map if I recall correctly).

Sidenote: In Japan, FFX's CTB was called Count Time Battle.

I was going to mention that, but it was slightly different in some ways. Like you had to charge magic attacks and what not. It is more or less the same thing minus some tiny difference. Another reason I didn't mention it was because it was more transparent about how the turns work. In the tutorials in FFT, the game is governed by invisible bars that count to 100 if I recall correctly. It was more or less an invisible ATB system applied to a tactical JRPG.

Again, they are more or less the same thing, but felt different incredibly because of their slight difference. FFT PS4 Remaster with always visible Act list please SE.
 

Junahu

Member
It was revolutionary for FFIV to go from purely static battles to these dynamic living encounters that moved even when you were thinking about what to do. While it reduced the viable difficulty somewhat (to compensate for the time pressure), the ATB allowed every encounter to progress like its own real-time miniature narrative. By applying a time constraint, the games push players away from thinking of battles in a statistical sense, while still keeping the abstract nature of RPG battles intact.

It's more about making the battles feel charged and exciting, rather than making them mechanically deep. So, strictly speaking, the ATB system is overrated. But that doesn't mean the system doesn't have value for certain games.
 
It was revolutionary for FFIV to go from purely static battles to these dynamic living encounters that moved even when you were thinking about what to do. While it reduced the viable difficulty somewhat (to compensate for the time pressure), the ATB allowed every encounter to progress like its own real-time miniature narrative. By applying a time constraint, the games push players away from thinking of battles in a statistical sense, while still keeping the abstract nature of RPG battles intact.

It's more about making the battles feel charged and exciting, rather than making them mechanically deep. So, strictly speaking, the ATB system is overrated. But that doesn't mean the system doesn't have value for certain games.

How does any of that make the ATB system overrated?

If anything I would say it's antiquated, but at the same time you can make an argument that it still has potential for evolution as seen in FFXIII trilogy and FFX-2.
 
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