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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

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H

Hazzuh

Member
hohoXD123 said:
Strange for him to put people who were against him on the shadow cabinet in the first place then.
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As we can now see, if he only put people in the cabinet who were with him then he couldn't form a cabinet. It's also clear to anyone who followed the psychodrama of the Blair-Brown years that having someone on your cabinet and trusting them are separate issues.

Maledict said:
No he didn't bring them in. If he had, he wouldn't be performing so utterly terribly in the polls - worse than any other opposition leader at this stage of the cycle. Corbyns base is extremely loud, extremely passionate - and extremely small. It does not reflect the wider electorate at all, and the evidence we have to date shows they neither like him nor want him.
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They don't care about the polls or evidence. The Corbynistas are tired of experts too.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Arnie7 said:
People like to attribute the fact that he's unelectable but take for example the mayoral London election. Lets assume as you say that it wasn't down to Corbyn at all. People vote for their own constituencies and interests. What matters is policy. Who the leader of the party is won't make a big difference. if Corbyn is really that hated then London will surly not have been that easy for Labour. As it turns out if you have a good candidate with the right polices then you can win. Sure a more confident leader will get you some votes but I think it is overblown the importance. You are voting for MPs not a president like say in America. Age of popularity in molds of Tony Blair type politicians that can single handle swing elections is gone.
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This makes literally no sense. There are words next to each other and things that look like sentences but I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say,

Leaders are hugely important. Time and time again polling shows people vote for their potential leader in a GE. It is not a minor thing - one of the biggest reasons Ed did so poorly was because people couldn't view him as a prime minister. Again, extensive research done before and after the 2015 election. Corbyn performs historically badly in polling right now compared to any other opposition leader looking to win the next general election. The idea that leaders don't count and only policy does is literally the opposite of everything we know and understand about politics.

And Sadik won London on the back of a smart, tough campaign based around him and based around keeping Jeremy Corbyn at arms length. Corbyn was bad for his campaign.
 
F

Faddy

Banned
Silent Chief said:
According to the rules, it's up to the 140 MPs who opposes Corbyn to sign enough members to replace him. No?
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The £3 Corbynistas have the numbers if they become active in their local parties to have every one of the 172 MPs who voted against Corbyn deselected by the next general election.

This is the first chance they have had to get Corbyn out who despite the media narrative has lead the party to by-election wins and a good showing at the English council elections and Labour are doing ok in the polls (but Miliband did ok in polls as well...)


As you say the rebels should be trying to recruit members who share their values and will vote against Corbyn but they face a huge difficulty because none of them have the personality to appeal to the public enough to get involved with the party and there is the huge union vote that still seems rock solid for Corbyn.

If they come for Corbyn and don't get him it could be the end of the Labour party.
 
I

IpKaiFung

Member
for the love of god can't the PLP find anyone better than Maria Eagle? She's a female Chris Grayling, a total charisma vacuum. Corbyn ain't gonna be getting many more votes but I dont believe the rest of the PLP have a clue either.
 
M

Maledict

Member
The idea that those MPs will be deselected is beyond fantasy. Reas the letters - they have the backing of their constituency parties in a lot of them.

People seem to forget how *utterly terrified* Labour is of taking out its own leaders. Blair wasn't challenged despite being loathed due to the war. Brown wasn't challenged despite an election nightmare everyone could see coming. Ed wasn't challenged despite constant plotting and upset. Labour has an inbuilt aversion to decapitations (unlike the Tories).

Thinking on all of those - imagine how bad things have to be to prompt a rebellion and leadership attack of this size. They wouldn't even get rid of Ed Miliband!
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
Faddy said:
The £3 Corbynistas have the numbers if they become active in their local parties to have every one of the 172 MPs who voted against Corbyn deselected by the next general election.

This is the first chance they have had to get Corbyn out who despite the media narrative has lead the party to by-election wins and a good showing at the English council elections and Labour are doing ok in the polls (but Miliband did ok in polls as well...)
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To deal with the second paragraph first, Labour did NOT do well at these council elections just gone. They lost seats. The best Labour can say is that they beat the apocalyptic predictions of losing several hundred seats.

The only party that did well at the council elections were the Lib Dems, and not to a huge extent.

Onto your first paragraph - the issue here is that there may simply not be enough time, and the media circus surrounding purges would be horrendous for Labour. Especially because quite a lot of those to-be-purged MPs are very popular local politicians - not all of them, mind, but quite a lot.

To de-select a Labour MP I think you'd need to do one of two things:

a) Somehow call an emergency (maybe it's called an extraordinary?) meeting of the local party, then table and pass a quorum vote. This would need Momentum members to have both the numbers and, I think, to have enough people elected to be in the local party's leadership team to actually call the meeting.
b) Have party HQ do it, either just de-selecting them as unsuitable candidates or kicking them outright out of the party.

The local party would then have to select a new PPC, and I'd suspect in many cases suddenly have to fill a lot of open spots in the campaigning team as those opposed to the de-selection would quit. That takes time, and we're looking at a general election by Christmas.
 
F

Faddy

Banned
Maledict said:
The idea that those MPs will be deselected is beyond fantasy. Reas the letters - they have the backing of their constituency parties in a lot of them.

People seem to forget how *utterly terrified* Labour is of taking out its own leaders. Blair wasn't challenged despite being loathed due to the war. Brown wasn't challenged despite an election nightmare everyone could see coming. Ed wasn't challenged despite constant plotting and upset. Labour has an inbuilt aversion to decapitations (unlike the Tories).

Thinking on all of those - imagine how bad things have to be to prompt a rebellion and leadership attack of this size. They wouldn't even get rid of Ed Miliband!
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They have the backing of the chairperson of their local parties. Remember the Corbyn movement is less than a year old so the membership hasn't been able to effect those positions yet.

A mass deselection effort would require the £3ers to mobilise and probably put together a slate of candidates so everyone is on the same page so they are all pulling in the same direction.

If it comes to "Civil War" then under the 1 member 1 vote system it seems like Corbyn could crush the rebels.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
On Newsnight they said over 60% of the post-2015 membership have never been to any meetings since becoming members. I think most the people who voted Corbyn are not involved enough in the party to push deselection. Additionally, doing this would create a huge shitstorm. It only takes them trying to deselect one MP who is incredibly popular in their constituency but unpopular with Momentum for their to be loads of blowback.
 
T

travisbickle

Member
avaya said:
He is far left. He is tea party left. Homeopathy, anti-nuclear, pacifist. All the ideology over everything left.

Someone like Angela Eagle is left or a Nandy. Corbyn is tea party left.
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Corbyn has a view that homeopathic remedies should be available on the NHS so if the patient and medical doctor want to prescribe it can be done for free, he's also voted that people who practice homeopathy should not be legally allowed to call themselves doctors. On the other hand nutters like Jeremy Hunt think sticking walnuts up your arse cures cancer, and wants to spend public money to further research in it. (Actually lots of Tories support expanding homeopathic remedies.)
 
A

Ashes

Banned
So Corbyn is a liar too? He's staying up, not because he would be letting down his supporters, but because he wants a seat at the top table. Your time has come and gone. You failed to lead your party. Now go already if you are a decent party leader. Clinging on to power is just embarrassing.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
Moze said:
Who says he is unelectable? A week ago, Brexit was almost unattainable. 15 months ago, a Tory majority was a dream. You cannot call anyone unelectable in the current climate.

Corbyn appeals to people who would otherwise not vote. I would take the risk with Corbyn rather than get another smug, robotic Labour leader conforming to austerity Tory policies because that's what they think will work.
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So because the extreme right wing has won major victories recently, the extreme left can too? Come back to the real world.
 
D

Dot Matrix

Member
I'd love Dennis Skinner to run for leader. In fact I'd just love to see him in a televised debate with Cameron/BJ, Farage, and whatever shop window manikin in a suit the Lib Dems put up.
 
K

kmag

Member
Faddy said:
The £3 Corbynistas have the numbers if they become active in their local parties to have every one of the 172 MPs who voted against Corbyn deselected by the next general election.

This is the first chance they have had to get Corbyn out who despite the media narrative has lead the party to by-election wins and a good showing at the English council elections and Labour are doing ok in the polls (but Miliband did ok in polls as well...)


As you say the rebels should be trying to recruit members who share their values and will vote against Corbyn but they face a huge difficulty because none of them have the personality to appeal to the public enough to get involved with the party and there is the huge union vote that still seems rock solid for Corbyn.

If they come for Corbyn and don't get him it could be the end of the Labour party.
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The £3 'members' don't get a vote at local level only Leadership and Deputy Leadership (and London Mayor if they're in London), they'd have to become members.


What rights do supporters have?

Affiliated Supporters

Affiliated Supporters are entitled to attend all-member meetings of the Labour Party and local parties can access their details on MemberCentre in order to invite them.

Affiliated Supporters will also have an individual vote in future Labour Party leadership elections and, if they are on the electoral register in London, the Primary for Labour’s candidate for London Mayor.

Unlike Registered Supporters, Affiliated Supporters will not be required to pay a fee to participate in these selections because their Affiliated Supporter status covers this.

Labour Party members can sign up to be an Affiliated Supporter, but they will still only receive a single vote in any selection in which Affiliated Supporters are entitled to participate.
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And it wasn't a good showing in the local elections, they're the first main opposition party to lose seats in the local elections following a general election since 1985 (the last time Labour ran from the left) that's not a good showing by any stretch.
 
N

nelsonroyale

Member
Hmmm, well that does seem like a lose in confidence doesn't it. Still I think he should hang on at least until the Chilcott. He needs to condemn Blair on war crimes. Otherwise, Labour are in meltdown and, as a party, have no credibility. This political climate is disgusting and it is clear that there is massive poverty in political imagination in the current era we live in.

Ushojax said:
So because the extreme right wing has won major victories recently, the extreme left can too? Come back to the real world.
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He is 'extreme' left wing how? In the current neo-liberal climate perhaps.
 
M

Maledict

Member
nelsonroyale said:
Hmmm, well that does seem like a lose in confidence doesn't it. Still I think he should hang on at least until the Chilcott. He needs to condemn Blair on war crimes. Otherwise, Labour are in meltdown and, as a party, have no credibility. This political climate is disgusting and it is clear that there is massive poverty in political imagination in the current era we live in.



He is 'extreme' left wing how? In the current neo-liberal climate perhaps.
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Number 1, Chilcot doesn't matter. Not in the climate we are in. And yet again, just to repeat, this isn't happening because of Blair or Chilcot. The left wing of the party is removing him because he's electoral poison. The MPs who gave him a chance are gone.

Number 2, he is absolutely extreme left wing. I know the current trend is to declare nothing extreme left and that everything has moved right wards, but ffs go look at his life and his policy positions over the last 40 years. This is one area he does differ from Bernie Sander's - he absolutely is hard left, and he is a proper socialist. Always has been, always will be. Anyone suggesting he isn't is literally ignoring the mans own written img and the words that have been coming out of his mouth during his lifetime of back bench rebellion and posturing.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
nelsonroyale said:
He is 'extreme' left wing how? In the current neo-liberal climate perhaps.
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That's the climate we are in, so of course he will be judged by those standards. His message simply has no traction with people outside of the most urban, liberal areas. He's so far to the left that on some issues like Europe, he's circled around and ended up on the right.

If Labour members want to be a party of protest then by all means they should keep Corbyn and condemn us to another decade of Tory austerity, wilful destruction of public services and uncaring social policies while they wave placards around ranting about the Murdoch press. If they want to actually help people, they need to be in government. For the last 30 years Corbyn has been wearing a VR headset living in a simulation of the Thatcher years, it's 2016. Look at the fucking numbers, the public do not want his brand of politics. Even the left-wing of his party can see that his personality and his vision of Britain is just not right for a leader of the Labour party in 2016.
 
M

Maledict

Member
If he just explains it in the right way though those stupid working class voters who voted for Thatcher, then Blair and now the Tories again will realise how dumb they are and finally come home!

/s
 
C

Coxy100

Banned
Labour's appeal has to go beyond a the young and the middle class intellectuals of the left. We will be decimated in an election without broader left of centre appeal and much better leadership. Corbyn has failed. The reasons for failure don't matter. I'm sure, had he the right leadership skills to get Labour into being a proper opposition and contend for government, the PLP would have supported him.
 
E

Ethelwulf

Member
I'm not from the UK so my opinion might be very uninformed and naive. That said, if for something Brexit is helping, is to check how balanced and stable your political circle is. All these news suggest it is not.
 
T

travisbickle

Member
Maledict said:
If he just explains it in the right way though those stupid working class voters who voted for Thatcher, then Blair and now the Tories again will realise how dumb they are and finally come home!

/s
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The working-class don't vote. They turned up for Blair's first election at around a massive 65% turn-out. And have dropped down since because they perceive no-one gives a shit about their issues. Blair was re-elected by the middle classes who loved his snake-oil salesman pitch.

Labour have to either get working class and young people voting or try and get the middle class again, which is basically the two sides of the current argument.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Crab said:
Normally, I'd agree. Right now, I have precisely two criteria for a Labour leader: a) immediately electable, b) strongly anti-Brexit.
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So you'd take David Cameron?
Coxy100 said:
Labour's appeal has to go beyond a the young and the middle class intellectuals of the left. We will be decimated in an election without broader left of centre appeal and much better leadership. Corbyn has failed. The reasons for failure don't matter. I'm sure, had he the right leadership skills to get Labour into being a proper opposition and contend for government, the PLP would have supported him.
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Blair already said that he wouldn't support Corbyn even if thought he were electable. Can't imagine much disagreement within the PLP.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Out of all the potential major party leaders, I honestly think Corbyn is the only one who actually wants Brexit. Scary as that seems.
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
T-Rex. said:
Is there a good reason why Jarvis isn't going to run?
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Previously, it was due to his family - and a very fair reason there.

This time he might be scouting it out a bit more. And also possibly waiting for the right time - even if you're the 'golden boy', this might be a mess too big for you to fix, let someone else fuck up and then swoop in later.
 
M

Maledict

Member
He's always said his family means he won't do til 2020. Apparently he was putting out feelers last night but who knows. Absolutely agree they need someone like him, as right now Eagle and Watson seem unable to even come to an agreement as to which should stand for it.
 
A

avaya

Member
Maledict said:
Out of all the potential major party leaders, I honestly think Corbyn is the only one who actually wants Brexit. Scary as that seems.
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He blatantly voted to leave. He is detestable. I am joining the Labour Party today to explicitly vote against the cunt.
 
P

Par Score

Member
Ashes said:
So Corbyn is a liar too? He's staying up, not because he would be letting down his supporters, but because he wants a seat at the top table. Your time has come and gone. You failed to lead your party. Now go already if you are a decent party leader. Clinging on to power is just embarrassing.
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If he resigns, he's not guaranteed to be on the ballot to elect the next leader.

If he's challenged while in post, he's guaranteed to be on the ballot (and will probably win).

Resigning would be a betrayal of the people who support him, the rank-and-file members of the party.
 
M

Maledict

Member
I have to be honest, I'm growing incredibly frustrated with the people demanding Corbyn stay.

The role of a leader is to lead the party. You have to herd cats to get politicians to do what you want and hold unity. It's one of the biggest parts of the job. The idea that you should ignore what 172 MPs, and a ton of other advisors and non-elected officials, is utterly ludicrous. The party simply cannot function like this. It's telling that party officials who wrote the rules back in the 90s said they never made votes of no-confidence binding because no-one in their right mind ever thought someone would refuse to leave after such an overwhelming result.

Also, the message I keep seeing of 'this being the time to lead an anti-austerity movement' has me utterly spitting. It is so blind and ignorant to what is happening right now. It is fighting the last war, which we lost, again - with the same tools only in worse condition.

If Jeremy Corbyn couldn't get his message through before the Brxit vote, what on EARTH makes people think NOW is the time it will work?

This potentially could be the start of a revival by labour, and instead it's being thrown away by a group of uninformed fanatics and a cult leader.
 
T

travisbickle

Member
Apt101 said:
Yikes. A vote tally like that sends a clear message. I'm surprised they weren't burning his effigy.
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It really just means 172 want someone better than Corbyn. When there's names on the ballot we'll find out if Corbyn ends up (again) being the best of a bad bunch.
 
K

kmag

Member
People do realise Corbyn himself was in the same position at the 172 in 1988, where he opted to back Benn over the sitting Labour leader Kinnock.
 
T

T-Rex.

Banned
Zelias said:
I'd like to know this as well, thought he was the party's current golden boy.
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JonathanEx said:
Previously, it was due to his family - and a very fair reason there.

This time he might be scouting it out a bit more. And also possibly waiting for the right time - even if you're the 'golden boy', this might be a mess too big for you to fix, let someone else fuck up and then swoop in later.
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Arnie7 said:
Some would say little parliamentary experience. But on the other hand he could counter that with real life experience served in the army.
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Ah ok, family reasons makes sense. It's a shame because he's the only candidate there that I think would be capable of keeping the current Labour voters, as well as eating into the votes of both the Tories and UKIP.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
Par Score said:
If he resigns, he's not guaranteed to be on the ballot to elect the next leader.

If he's challenged while in post, he's guaranteed to be on the ballot (and will probably win).

Resigning would be a betrayal of the people who support him, the rank-and-file members of the party.
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The MPs calling for him to resign represent a vastly bigger number of people than the party members who elected Corbyn. There are so many more people with Labour values than the few hundred thousand who elected Corbyn, they deserve leadership as well.

Corbyn clinging on is pointless, he will lose the GE in November, resign and then we will have to wait 5 years for another crack at the Tories. There is nothing to be gained by retaining him as leader.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
My feeling is that the PLP's 'Corbyn can't lead the party' is really more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than anything else. They opposed, undermined, and back stabbed him every step of the way (actually I'm reminded of Paul Merton's old quip about Angus Deayton: 'stabbed him in the back? I stabbed him in the front'); refused to sit in his cabinet, leaked closed-door meetings.

Corbyn's position as leader is obviously now untenable; it's just a shame that the PLP never actually gave the situation a chance.
 
U

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
Hazzuh said:
https://twitter.com/ChrisMcSh/status/748035604441600000



WHAT AN ABSOLUTE, SELF INDULGENT MORON.
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tumblr_lk9jicwJHL1qbzvnio1_500.gif
 
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