• Register
  • TOS
  • Privacy
  • @NeoGAF

cw_sasuke
Member
(09-26-2010, 10:48 AM)
cw_sasuke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

Then why does Kid Icarus look so damn shitty?

Kid Icarus looks shitty ? Maybe it no RE, but its far from lookin shitty if you saw the trailer in 3DS screensize ....
Instro
Member
(09-26-2010, 10:56 AM)
Instro's Avatar
Why do people keep bringing up Kid Icarus as if its some benchmark for the system? Fuck its not even a launch game anyway. :lol

I dont even get why people say its ugly anyway, there were some very nice looking parts in the trailer that caught my eye. I thought the whole last sequence in the trailer of Pit flying through the clouds was very good looking actually.
Koodo
Member
(09-26-2010, 10:57 AM)
Koodo's Avatar
What the fuck. There is a conference happening in a few days?

Damn, I need to get rolling with some RSS feeds on the iPhone. I'm out of the loop with gaming news.
Socreges
smarter than the average commie
(09-26-2010, 11:03 AM)
Socreges's Avatar
That wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, guys. Just my way of expressing my disappointment with how Kid Icarus looks. And how ridiculous, I think, the comparison is. Do you guys actually believe that the 3DS graphical capabilities are on par with the 360 and PS3?

Originally Posted by Gravija

This dudes right, guys. There's no way the system can push out good graphics if one game out of many looks like shit.

Originally Posted by DonMigs85

Notice that they say capabilities, not performance.

Sure, but 360/PS3 software performance is also somewhere short of the systems' capabilities, yet there's nothing on either system that looks as poor as Kid Icarus.
Gravijah
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:04 AM)
Gravijah's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

Sure, but 360/PS3 software performance is also somewhere short of the systems' capabilities, yet there's nothing on either system that looks as poor as Kid Icarus.

I'm sure I could find games that look worse. Do you know how much shovelware exists?

'Sides, it's not that the 3DS looks exactly like PS3 and 360 games. But it's pushing effects and such that the PS3/360 can.
Instro
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:06 AM)
Instro's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

That wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, guys. Just my way of expressing my disappointment with how Kid Icarus looks. And how ridiculous, I think, the comparison is. Do you guys actually believe that the 3DS graphical capabilities are on par with the 360 and PS3?

I dont think anyone said its on par with a 360 or PS3, it simply has some of the graphical abilities of those consoles, which is quite clear since it can run MT Framework.
Socreges
smarter than the average commie
(09-26-2010, 11:10 AM)
Socreges's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gravijah

I'm sure I could find games that look worse. Do you know how much shovelware exists?

'Sides, it's not that the 3DS looks exactly like PS3 and 360 games. But it's pushing effects and such that the PS3/360 can.

Originally Posted by Instro

I dont think anyone said its on par with a 360 or PS3, it simply has some of the graphical abilities of those consoles, which is quite clear since it can run MT Framework.

I was responding to a specific quote that said its "graphical capabilities" were similar, with the one caveat provided being the size of the screen. If you guys want to qualify that statement, fine. But they didn't. That's all I was taking the issue with and I'm sure the reality is a lot closer to the nuances that you've both added.

As for the shovelware, Gravijah, sure. I'm positive that some two-bit developers have churned out some astoundingly craptacular stuff. But first-gen or not, look at what Nintendo, Konami, and Capcom have done with the hardware. Solid stuff overall, but nothing close to even your average 360/PS3 title in my opinion.

I'd like to add: I really don't care. I'm actually concerned that the graphics are too good and I've stated as such in previous threads. Handheld gaming has kept 2D alive. If 3D becomes viable and attractive, 2D software might once again take a backseat.
Last edited by Socreges; 09-26-2010 at 11:14 AM.
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:15 AM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

That wasn't meant to be taken too seriously, guys. Just my way of expressing my disappointment with how Kid Icarus looks. And how ridiculous, I think, the comparison is. Do you guys actually believe that the 3DS graphical capabilities are on par with the 360 and PS3?

Not on par, but reasonably close (of course performance is sitting somewhere closer to PS2, so it's really it's own beast).
Gravijah
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:16 AM)
Gravijah's Avatar
Ehh, it's early/late. No harm, no foul.
luffeN
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:18 AM)
luffeN's Avatar

Originally Posted by Koodo

What the fuck. There is a conference happening in a few days?

Damn, I need to get rolling with some RSS feeds on the iPhone. I'm out of the loop with gaming news.

Resident Evil 5 was released for Xbox 360!
Poyunch
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:20 AM)
Poyunch's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gravijah

I'm sure I could find games that look worse. Do you know how much shovelware exists?

'Sides, it's not that the 3DS looks exactly like PS3 and 360 games. But it's pushing effects and such that the PS3/360 can.

And the Wii can't?
Gravijah
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:21 AM)
Gravijah's Avatar

Originally Posted by PounchEnvy

And the Wii can't?

Right.
Poyunch
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:21 AM)
Poyunch's Avatar
I did good? :D

edit: Maybe their experience with the 3DS will help Nintendo get accustomed for the Wii's successor.
jarosh
has an official NeoGAF
license to hit you on
the head with a skillet
(09-26-2010, 11:22 AM)
jarosh's Avatar
socreges, i think it's a bit silly to jump in on page 64/65 and make those kinds of comments. i'm not talking about whether or not what you say is accurate. but realize that for 64 pages people who actually have a pretty good understanding of what the specs mean and plenty of people who don't have a clue at all have been debating this ad nauseam. it's clear that you jumped in without reading any of the thread. i don't blame you for that. it's a bloated thread with lots of filler and dumb back and forth. but there HAS been some quite enlightening and interesting tech discussion throughout, especially on the earlier pages. and there also has been some discussion about exactly why those devs would make comments like the ones you quoted. you're certainly not the first one to question them. maybe you should have considered that before hitting the "thread reboot" button :P
Gravijah
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:23 AM)
Gravijah's Avatar

Originally Posted by PounchEnvy

I did good? :D

edit: Maybe their experience with the 3DS will help them get accustomed for the Wii's successor.

Uh-huh x2.
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:24 AM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by PounchEnvy

And the Wii can't?

Yeah, the Wii is using 10 year old completely fixed function hardware. It's incapable of doing anything that isn't hardwired into it's GPU. Well incapable of doing them well at least (It can software render a few additional effects at a low quality).
Poyunch
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:27 AM)
Poyunch's Avatar
:D
DonMigs85
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:28 AM)
DonMigs85's Avatar

Originally Posted by Luigiv

Yeah, the Wii is using 10 year old completely fixed function hardware. It's incapable of doing anything that isn't hardwired into it's GPU. Well incapable of doing them well at least (It can software render a few additional effects at a low quality).

I wonder how they pulled off the fur/grass shading seen in Star Fox Adventures and DK Jungle Beat... was it thanks to the TEV?
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:31 AM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by DonMigs85

I wonder how they pulled off the fur/grass shading seen in Star Fox Adventures and DK Jungle Beat... was it thanks to the TEV?

Yep. The TEV is essentially a big collection of hardwired texture effects. Fur shading included (or at least the base effects required to pull off fur shading included, I'm not really sure how it works exactly).
szaromir
Banned
(09-26-2010, 11:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Socreges

I'd like to add: I really don't care. I'm actually concerned that the graphics are too good and I've stated as such in previous threads. Handheld gaming has kept 2D alive. If 3D becomes viable and attractive, 2D software might once again take a backseat.

I don't think that's any danger at all. The first reason is that the system has only one analogue stick (or whatever it is), which means that unless developers learned to do automated camera, 2D remains a viable options. Sure, some developers over the years managed to implement it successfully, but most failed.

Second reason is that home consoles enjoy a bit of resurgence of sidescrollers - NSMB Wii, DKC, Kirby Epic Yarn, Comic Jumper, Limbo etc. Part of it is Nintendo still managing to make them mainstream (thus they won't abandon them on 3DS either), part of it (for other developers) is a sales channel helping to avoid dangers of retail, making them address their audience directly. PS2 generation was devoid of them, so this pretty much shows that handheld gaming should always remain 10 years behind home platforms - you can repeat their successes and avoid their failures (and not add new ones).
Poyunch
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:39 AM)
Poyunch's Avatar
It's alright. A full 3D game seems too progressive for Game Freak.
beje
Banned
(09-26-2010, 11:46 AM)
beje's Avatar

Originally Posted by PounchEnvy

It's alright. A full 3D game seems too progressive for Game Freak.

Give them a little time, man. They've just moved into a 1996 pseudo-3D PSX engine.
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:47 AM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by szaromir

I don't think that's any danger at all. The first reason is that the system has only one analogue stick (or whatever it is), which means that unless developers learned to do automated camera, 2D remains a viable options. Sure, some developers over the years managed to implement it successfully, but most failed.

Second reason is that home consoles enjoy a bit of resurgence of sidescrollers - NSMB Wii, DKC, Kirby Epic Yarn, Comic Jumper, Limbo etc. Part of it is Nintendo still managing to make them mainstream (thus they won't abandon them on 3DS either), part of it (for other developers) is a sales channel helping to avoid dangers of retail, making them address their audience directly. PS2 generation was devoid of them, so this pretty much shows that handheld gaming should always remain 10 years behind home platforms - you can repeat their successes and avoid their failures (and not add new ones).

Sorry to disappoint you, but the stereo 3D effect of the screen will actually greatly reduce the need for extensive camera control and make automated/fixed camera's a lot easier to pull off.
Danneee
Member
(09-26-2010, 11:59 AM)
Danneee's Avatar

Originally Posted by Luigiv

Sorry to disappoint you, but the stereo 3D effect of the screen will actually greatly reduce the need for extensive camera control and make automated/fixed camera's a lot easier to pull off.

Really? How?

edit: I guess it is because we don't have to use the in game camera to get the sense of depth and make platforming and such easier but but aren't most of us using the camera control to navigate/turn in 3d games (hard to explain but I hope you understand)? I'm having trouble seeing how the 3d would affect that in any way.
Last edited by Danneee; 09-26-2010 at 12:04 PM.
Socreges
smarter than the average commie
(09-26-2010, 12:07 PM)
Socreges's Avatar

Originally Posted by jarosh

socreges, i think it's a bit silly to jump in on page 64/65 and make those kinds of comments. i'm not talking about whether or not what you say is accurate. but realize that for 64 pages people who actually have a pretty good understanding of what the specs mean and plenty of people who don't have a clue at all have been debating this ad nauseam. it's clear that you jumped in without reading any of the thread. i don't blame you for that. it's a bloated thread with lots of filler and dumb back and forth. but there HAS been some quite enlightening and interesting tech discussion throughout, especially on the earlier pages. and there also has been some discussion about exactly why those devs would make comments like the ones you quoted. you're certainly not the first one to question them. maybe you should have considered that before hitting the "thread reboot" button :P

You're a good man, jarosh. An artist. A scholar. But I don't think you're being fair.

I replied to a specific quote. I didn't jump to the last page and make some vague, senseless observation, irrespective of context. I took issue with a particular statement. No amount of hypothesizing on the part of GAF could make that particular quote any less inaccurate. To suggest that I should read dozens of pages of drivel (sprinkled with the occasional quality post) before expressing any sort of opinion on the OP, or that my post is somehow worth less since it hasn't taken into account all of the content that preceded it, is, in my opinion, much sillier.

Originally Posted by szaromir

I don't think that's any danger at all. The first reason is that the system has only one analogue stick (or whatever it is), which means that unless developers learned to do automated camera, 2D remains a viable options. Sure, some developers over the years managed to implement it successfully, but most failed.

Second reason is that home consoles enjoy a bit of resurgence of sidescrollers - NSMB Wii, DKC, Kirby Epic Yarn, Comic Jumper, Limbo etc. Part of it is Nintendo still managing to make them mainstream (thus they won't abandon them on 3DS either), part of it (for other developers) is a sales channel helping to avoid dangers of retail, making them address their audience directly. PS2 generation was devoid of them, so this pretty much shows that handheld gaming should always remain 10 years behind home platforms - you can repeat their successes and avoid their failures (and not add new ones).

I don't think we're all that far apart here. I agree that 2D remains a viable option and that such genres will still be supported on the 3DS. I just don't think they'll be supported as much. As I said, I fear that 2D gaming will take a backseat, not that it will disappear completely. While home consoles (the Wii in particular) will continue to give us the occasional sidescroller, support pales in comparison to what we've seen on handhelds. The 3DS, given its capabilities, might deliver a proportion of 3D/2D software akin to the home consoles, instead of its predecessors. That worries me.
Celine
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:08 PM)
Celine's Avatar

Originally Posted by Nirolak

While I know people like the whole "Nintendo never leaks" meme, we're in a thread about the leaked hardware of the 3DS, we have a post several pages back about how five of Nintendo's highly secretive games leaked, and we're speculating that information about Nintendo's 3DS conference might leak ahead of time from the Nikkei, because the Nikkei always leaks information about Nintendo such as what games they're revealing as well as extra features about the 3DS.

Not to mention that the 3DS was leaked several times before its announcement and we even saw the circuit board for the system leak ahead of time.

Now we have one of the leakiest companies out there, EA, talking about some features for the 3DS. This is the same company that confirmed a split launch for the 3DS at TGS, was the only company to reveal a 3DS game at TGS, said that their title was a launch title for the 3DS, and gave a release date of Spring 2010, but Nintendo did nothing to try and stop that.

I'm going to suggest that considering almost everything about this system has been leaking left and right, maybe Nintendo is no longer overly concerned about keeping every last detail secret, and thus let third party publishers reveal a few vague details which they hadn't yet revealed themselves, in the same way that they let Capcom unveil the GPU capabilities of the 3DS despite NDAing all the system's hardware.

I'm also going to suggest that perhaps Nintendo is no longer the bastion of secret keeping they used to be, but rather an above average secret keeper in one of the leakiest industries out there, so we shouldn't dismiss leaks about them due to their "secret ninja assassins".

The "Nintendo never leaks" meme refers to the fact that Nintendo leaks usually won't come out one week or more before an event like happen so often for other companies.
When you had to do with other partners and media you can't keep a secret.
Discotheque
Pam Oliver sextape
(09-26-2010, 12:12 PM)
Discotheque's Avatar

Originally Posted by hosannainexcelsis

Crazy. Too bad Nintendo has "silenced" this leak.

Eh not really, I remember that guy's posts on that forum (not the Nintendo ones). He was pretty much a troll and an asshole. His multiple bans were no surprise.
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:26 PM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by Danneee

Really? How?

edit: I guess it is because we don't have to use the in game camera to get the sense of depth and make platforming and such easier but but aren't most of us using the camera control to navigate/turn in 3d games (hard to explain but I hope you understand)? I'm having trouble seeing how the 3d would affect that in any way.

Yeah pretty much that. In a monoscopic 3D game, you often need to take in the scene from multiple angles or view it from a very particular angle in order to gauge your surrounding correctly. In Stereo this becomes a lot less important as you can already see the depth. It doesn't eliminate the need for camera control entirely, but it does open up a lot more "effective" angles you can position a fixed camera in.
Jocchan
Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
(09-26-2010, 12:34 PM)
Jocchan's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

You're a good man, jarosh. An artist. A scholar. But I don't think you're being fair.

I replied to a specific quote. I didn't jump to the last page and make some vague, senseless observation, irrespective of context. I took issue with a particular statement. No amount of hypothesizing on the part of GAF could make that particular quote any less inaccurate. To suggest that I should read dozens of pages of drivel (sprinkled with the occasional quality post) before expressing any sort of opinion on the OP, or that my post is somehow worth less since it hasn't taken into account all of the content that preceded it, is, in my opinion, much sillier.

But, if you're retreading an argument that has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread, your post is objectively worth less.
Yes, this is a long thread and unfortunately the longer a thread is and the harder is to ask someone to read it (so of course no one can really blame you), but this doesn't change the facts: your point came up a large number of times, and the discussion has been going in circles.

Originally Posted by Luigiv

Sorry to disappoint you, but the stereo 3D effect of the screen will actually greatly reduce the need for extensive camera control and make automated/fixed camera's a lot easier to pull off.

Sorry, but no. 3D will help the player evaluating distances, but that's just part of the reason why camera control is useful during gameplay.
A much more important reason to change the camera angle is to avoid objects in the way (often including the main character) or to look around and search for interactive objects.
Last edited by Jocchan; 09-26-2010 at 12:38 PM.
Soneet
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:45 PM)
Soneet's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jocchan

Sorry, but no. 3D will help the player evaluating distances, but that's just part of the reason why camera control is useful during gameplay.
A much more important reason to change the camera angle is to avoid objects in the way (often including the main character) or to look around and search for interactive objects.

In 3D, walking behind an obstructing tree is awesome.
SolarPowered
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:46 PM)
SolarPowered's Avatar
I got home from work yesterday and the thread was already five pages larger than before. I can't even post because I can't keep up with the conversation of this thread.

This does not bode well at all for my upcoming math test.:lol
Luigiv
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:52 PM)
Luigiv's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jocchan


Sorry, but no. 3D will help the player evaluating distances, but that's just part of the reason why camera control is useful during gameplay.
A much more important reason to change the camera angle is to avoid objects in the way (often including the main character) or to look around and search for interactive objects.

I guess so, though those problems can also be circumvented with decent camera AI/level design. Then again I'm guessing I'm hoping for too much to expect that game developers would actually know how to do that.
Celine
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:58 PM)
Celine's Avatar

Originally Posted by DonMigs85

I remember when the N64 was supposed to be $250 then suddenly they dropped it to $200 shortly before launch.
Also does anyone have a Bill of Materials breakdown for the various components we know are in the 3DS? We know Nintendo generally likes profit margins of around $50 or more on their hardware.

Last edited by Celine; 09-26-2010 at 01:07 PM.
cw_sasuke
Member
(09-26-2010, 12:59 PM)
cw_sasuke's Avatar
Sunday issue of the german newspaper BILD says its launchin Nov 11th in Japan. And Q1 next year in europe with Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Layton. as launch games. Pricepoint 200..... hmm...
Last edited by cw_sasuke; 09-26-2010 at 01:09 PM.
Socreges
smarter than the average commie
(09-26-2010, 01:03 PM)
Socreges's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jocchan

But, if you're retreading an argument that has been discussed ad nauseam in this thread, your post is objectively worth less.

You're confusing things a bit. If we're going to say that a post that's been repeated is worth less, that's something different. I'd ask you who it's worth less to and why I would give a shit. Again, I just wanted to place my own objection to a quote observed in the OP. It was a relationship between my post and the OP, nothing more. In short, it depends on how you value a post. If it's based on what novelty it contributes to a thread, then I'd agree that my post was worth less. But that's not how I see it. I'm here to express my own thoughts with respect to the OP. I'd rather people not criticize me for not having read the 65 pages in-between.

Originally Posted by Jocchan

Yes, this is a long thread and unfortunately the longer a thread is and the harder is to ask someone to read it (so of course no one can really blame you), but this doesn't change the facts: your point came up a large number of times, and the discussion has been going in circles.

Obviously I've addressed this above, but since this point is slightly different I'll add (repeat): I disagree that the quote has been explained in such a way as to have it be true. Either it was poorly phrased or an exaggeration. "What he meant to say" is all well and good (and speculative), but allow me to still take issue with it.
Dabookerman
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:06 PM)
Dabookerman's Avatar
Why is this thread so big..? Has something been announced?
Jackano
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:06 PM)
Jackano's Avatar

Originally Posted by cw_sasuke

Sunday issue of the german newspaper BILD says its launchin Nov 11th in Japan. And Q1 next year in europe with Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Layton. as launch games. Pricepoint 200..... hmm...

http://i56.************/otgnqt.jpg

Isn't Bild usually crap? Like people magazine or something. Anyways, probable but only speculation here.
HolyCheck
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:08 PM)
HolyCheck's Avatar

Originally Posted by cw_sasuke

Sunday issue of the german newspaper BILD says its launchin Nov 11th in Japan. And Q1 next year in europe with Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Layton. as launch games. Pricepoint 200..... hmm...


delete delete delete
cw_sasuke
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:12 PM)
cw_sasuke's Avatar

Originally Posted by Jackano

Isn't Bild usually crap? Like people magazine or something. Anyways, probable but only speculation here.

Yes, there are - but i dont know why they would mention the japanese release today when they dont have any clue. Seems stupid even for them.

Originally Posted by Syth_Blade22

delete delete delete

Yes, thats probably safer even if isnt a gaming mag xD
Jintor
Lit himself on fire to get
a mod to tag him
(09-26-2010, 01:13 PM)
Jintor's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dabookerman

Why is this thread so big..? Has something been announced?

Nintendo event in Japan on the 29th, everybody's going crazy
XPE
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:25 PM)
XPE's Avatar

Originally Posted by Dabookerman

Why is this thread so big..? Has something been announced?

Well the 1st 25 pages were bitching about the ram, the next 25 were spent explaining why this wasnt a problem
EatChildren
Chico is Quiet
(09-26-2010, 01:27 PM)
EatChildren's Avatar

Originally Posted by Socreges

Then why does Kid Icarus look so damn shitty?

Everything shitty looking about Kid Icarus can be pinned down to its ugly character art, flat lighting, and smeared neon colours. On the technical front it looks pretty impressive, especially considering the draw distance and its usual framerate. Its also important not to look at screenshots and videos blow up past anything other than their native resolution.
Chinner
(09-26-2010, 01:28 PM)
Chinner's Avatar
so you guys are saying the 3ds ISN'T as powerful as the PS3...?
VOOK
We don't know why he keeps buying PAL, either.
(09-26-2010, 01:28 PM)
VOOK's Avatar

Originally Posted by cw_sasuke

Sunday issue of the german newspaper BILD says its launchin Nov 11th in Japan. And Q1 next year in europe with Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Layton. as launch games. Pricepoint 200..... hmm...

Hmmm
Akai
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:31 PM)
Akai's Avatar

Originally Posted by cw_sasuke

Sunday issue of the german newspaper BILD says its launchin Nov 11th in Japan. And Q1 next year in europe with Mario Kart, Zelda OoT, Layton. as launch games. Pricepoint 200..... hmm...

Yeah, uh, no...
GCX
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:36 PM)
GCX's Avatar
I don't really see Mario Kart or Layton being ready for launch.
Spiegel
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:39 PM)
Spiegel's Avatar

Originally Posted by GCX

I don't really see Mario Kart or Layton being ready for launch.

Layton looks the same as the DS games and L5 was releasing them yearly. It will probably be a launch title in Japan.
joshwaan
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:40 PM)
joshwaan's Avatar
Specs sound ok nothing fantastic or anything.

I was expecting at least 256MB Ram since it's cheap and 5GB flash and dual 450MHZ ARM CPU.

But this is a rumor we will know for sure 2 days can't wait :)
XPE
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:40 PM)
XPE's Avatar

Originally Posted by Chinner

so you guys are saying the 3ds ISN'T as powerful as the PS3...?

Well remember these are rumoured specs :D
GCX
Member
(09-26-2010, 01:41 PM)
GCX's Avatar

Originally Posted by Spiegel

Layton looks the same as the DS games and L5 was releasing them yearly. It will probably be a launch title in Japan.

But definitely not in Europe.

Thread Tools