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Magic: the Gathering |OT13| Ixalan - Port to Sideboard
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
- Start date
Yeah that was about what I figured.
Imperfected
Member
Everyone I've talked to seemed pretty upset about it and admitted readily that the whole thing was a terrible idea, especially since it prevented them from having anything Arena-related to show at PAX, Gamescom, etc. Pretty easy guess it's coming from higher corporate at Hasbro.
That said, I was wearing my heart on my sleeve ("The fuck are you guys doing not even having a 'Magic Arena: Join us for the next step in Magic on September 7th!' standee in the Mini-Masters area at PAX?"), so I doubt anyone would have really told me if they did think it was anything other than moronic.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
How many of those accounts are hardcore accounts that spend as much as the top spending MTGO accounts? It's not the same market.
I'm aware of the complexity of the problem, I'm just interested in how mathematical modeling approaches the problem. For mafia/werewolf for example there are interesting (albeit practically very limited) mathematical results on game set-ups.
RuinerPrime
Member
How is modern looking right now? I'm thinking of putting the Delver deck back together, I'm sure its not meta anymore but I miss playing RU delver. I also wanna try out Opt in it along side serum visions.
A Serious Man
Member
I think the next few years will see Arena build a much, much larger userbase than MTGO. Legacy format players and people testing for paper tournaments will stick to MTGO but that's because they have no alternatives. No one has any affection for the program. You can set your watch to the tweets from pros bitching about bugs, timing out, etc. every MOCS tournament. As soon as a players format of choice is available on a competent program, that player will be jumping off of MTGO for the most part. The issue of not being able to instantly buy a deck will probably be moot as well as they'll most likely have an in-game crafting currency you can buy or essentially buy via packs.
I can't afford to maintain a collection in 3 different places- meat space and MTGO is rough as is. If Arena is only going to contain standard for the forseeable future and there's no way for me to transfer the literally thousands of dollars I have in MTGO over, I don't care how pretty it looks. Not a fan.
I use MTGO to continue to compete for PPTQ like events and test for GPs/PPTQs. I hope enough of the pro/competitive scene sticks around for that to continue to be valuable. Would suck to need a third collection.
I use MTGO to continue to compete for PPTQ like events and test for GPs/PPTQs. I hope enough of the pro/competitive scene sticks around for that to continue to be valuable. Would suck to need a third collection.
Whilst I absolutely agree with the direction Wizards are taking their online presence, I think the idea that there's some vast market of hearthstone players ready to snap up is a bit false and fools gold really, for two reasons.
1) Magic is astronomically more complicated (which I prefer), and cannot be played in 5 minute sessions like Hearthstone is. People play that game on the loo. You just can't do that in Magic, even simple games take substantially longer and have far more complex interactions. Being able to play cards on your opponents turn is a huge factor as well.
2) Whilst people complain a lot about hearthstone balance, people complain a lot about balance in *every* game, and the fact is the vast majority of hearthstone players arent playing at a level where the balance issues are a major factor and would find Magic just as unbalance. People don't often shift game because of balance - look at how WoW has had complainers about balance for so long, and yet its still the dominant subscription MMO. People complaining about balance are still invested in your game.
I think Arena is a good step forward, and will offer a product that will appeal to many people - but I don't think it's going to challenge Hearthstone nor do I think Hearthstone's players are necessarily the people to be targeted that much with it. It can find a healthy, large audience of it's own with the right model and delivery.
1) Magic is astronomically more complicated (which I prefer), and cannot be played in 5 minute sessions like Hearthstone is. People play that game on the loo. You just can't do that in Magic, even simple games take substantially longer and have far more complex interactions. Being able to play cards on your opponents turn is a huge factor as well.
2) Whilst people complain a lot about hearthstone balance, people complain a lot about balance in *every* game, and the fact is the vast majority of hearthstone players arent playing at a level where the balance issues are a major factor and would find Magic just as unbalance. People don't often shift game because of balance - look at how WoW has had complainers about balance for so long, and yet its still the dominant subscription MMO. People complaining about balance are still invested in your game.
I think Arena is a good step forward, and will offer a product that will appeal to many people - but I don't think it's going to challenge Hearthstone nor do I think Hearthstone's players are necessarily the people to be targeted that much with it. It can find a healthy, large audience of it's own with the right model and delivery.
StrategyFan
Member
i don't know how many people even try to do math-based models for games that are already way too intractable even for computer look-ahead models
you're more likely to see math models for a game like gwent, not a game like mtg
i know some people tried evaluating all the hearthstone creatures just based on their stats & text, but i don't think it led to anything insightful that a mediocre player couldn't figure out by just reading the cards
maybe this rambling will make some degree of sense:
you might find some more math-based analysis of limited formats. one can try to draw conclusions after giving a numerical rating to cards in the set. if you have enough data (here is some for a mtg-like game), you might be able to do this empirically instead of mathematically
if i had to write a (primitive) drafting AI part of it would basically be an expected value calculation. (proportional to: projected power level of deck after 3 packs. inversely proportional to: number of opponents perceived to be in those colors and how much they're in those colors). then there would be a closed-form routine for which card to pick from the booster pack.
i'm not sure if anyone would bother tackle constructed because it keeps changing. maybe some legacy format burn deck or mill deck can model how much damage / deck destruction it can do based on a function of game turns. even then i find it unlikely for a purely theoretical approach to yield better results than a simulation-based approach
it's also not really possible to form a model for creatures (which is where they focus the game now) because blocking exists, removal exists, and disruption exists. the mathematical models become very inaccurate, so if you can only solve it with a simulation then it's basically playing like a player and not solving it with math or game theory
I think there's some number definitely - but I don't think it's that big. There are already a number of more complicated, in depth electronic ccgs out there and they aren't really impacting hearthstone. I really think Arena needs to focus more on shifting people from paper magic and growing an audience from gamers who are already into the more complicated games.
I also think people underestimate how sticky hearthstone is due to its presentation. Magic is never going to have as smooth and polished a presentation - partly because they don't have blizzards expertise, partly because they aren't designing their game for online interactions like Blizzard does so they will never have all the cool animations, sounds and unique effects etc.
I think ultimately, having watched so many MMOs offer more than world of Warcraft in terms of complexity, and seeing them fail despite the huge crowds of people on Reddit complaining about balance and a desire for more intricate stuff, the lesson I've taken away from that is that blizzards fans tend to really stick to their games. If they are are active complaining about a game they are still invested and playing. I don't see any reason Arena is going to succeed at doing something that so many other companies have tried and failed at with the same approach.
A Serious Man
Member
Arena doesn't have to cannibalize Hearthstone's audience to be a big success. The potential userbase from paper Magic alone can make it very profitable. They may not invest in it like they do with paper but being able to play a quick game with a low barrier to entry when your friends aren't around appeals to everyone, especially once it hits iOS and android. The real games that should be worried are Hex, Eternal and the other Magic clones that only exist because of the void left by the abscence of a good F2P Magic client. I can see them dying pretty quickly.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The problem is that people keep saying HEARTHSTONE HEARTHSTONE HEARTHSTONE when Magic isn't comparable enough to Hearthstone for that argument to be meaningful beyond "card game." Like, I legitimately feel some of you guys are just as dazzled by the Hearthstone cash numbers as Hasbro executives are and aren't seeing reality: Magic is an ultra fiddly, timing-specific game that will never, ever, ever appeal to casual game players the way Hearthstone does.
I can play full on campaigns of ultra-fiddly board games with my playgroup, but I can't get those same people to play Commander because I have played with them before and they pretty quickly figured out the only way they ever win is if I let them win. Everyone can say they don't do that when teaching others, but I don't ever believe them - I know every time they make a mistake and know all of the ins-and-outs of timing and spell restrictions Magic and virtually every game I play with unskilled players involves them making game-losing decisions. I honestly don't think any of my friends (the ones who were willing to learn to play at ALL) could beat me at Magic without weeks or months or practice unless there was something wildly off about deck construction.
The game is really fucking hard and it's partially for that reason why I don't think the online components compare well to Hearthstone given the audience they market to. It's the same reason both why I don't think they were ever planning to "get rid" of MTGO and the same reason I don't think Arena is going to be any more successful than Duels was. In fact, I think Hasbro is going to be unhappy with how this does.
I can play full on campaigns of ultra-fiddly board games with my playgroup, but I can't get those same people to play Commander because I have played with them before and they pretty quickly figured out the only way they ever win is if I let them win. Everyone can say they don't do that when teaching others, but I don't ever believe them - I know every time they make a mistake and know all of the ins-and-outs of timing and spell restrictions Magic and virtually every game I play with unskilled players involves them making game-losing decisions. I honestly don't think any of my friends (the ones who were willing to learn to play at ALL) could beat me at Magic without weeks or months or practice unless there was something wildly off about deck construction.
The game is really fucking hard and it's partially for that reason why I don't think the online components compare well to Hearthstone given the audience they market to. It's the same reason both why I don't think they were ever planning to "get rid" of MTGO and the same reason I don't think Arena is going to be any more successful than Duels was. In fact, I think Hasbro is going to be unhappy with how this does.
StrategyFan
Member
i think hearthstone is just a point of comparison for how many people could be convinced to download it and give it a try, not how many people it will retain
there are also a ton of paper mtg players don't bother with mtgo, but some of them would if it was cheap and the client was at least on par with other ccgs
a lot of them only have the option to draft once a week at fnm and play sealed at a prerelease. maybe i'm overly high on limited as a format, but there are others who just like playing that mode for fun even if it might be mostly phantom and not translate to redemption of physical cards
i don't expect the constructed to be cheap since there's no trading (constructed is the end goal for collecting cards and how most of these f2p/p2w games want to make their money), but if they copy pricing models of other ccgs then it has the potential to at least be a big deal for the draft/sealed players whose only current option is to pay paper-like prices for mtgo
there are also a ton of paper mtg players don't bother with mtgo, but some of them would if it was cheap and the client was at least on par with other ccgs
a lot of them only have the option to draft once a week at fnm and play sealed at a prerelease. maybe i'm overly high on limited as a format, but there are others who just like playing that mode for fun even if it might be mostly phantom and not translate to redemption of physical cards
i don't expect the constructed to be cheap since there's no trading (constructed is the end goal for collecting cards and how most of these f2p/p2w games want to make their money), but if they copy pricing models of other ccgs then it has the potential to at least be a big deal for the draft/sealed players whose only current option is to pay paper-like prices for mtgo
One question regarding the MtG Arena reveal.
So first of all the most important take away for me is the full rule support. What I was thinking when they showed the full control mode, wouldn't this essentially give away that I have some instant available?
Sure it could also be used for bluffs and we don't know much about how it works anyways. But what is your impression? How is this handled in MtGO?
So first of all the most important take away for me is the full rule support. What I was thinking when they showed the full control mode, wouldn't this essentially give away that I have some instant available?
Sure it could also be used for bluffs and we don't know much about how it works anyways. But what is your impression? How is this handled in MtGO?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Generally you approve passing priority in any spot you have a "stop" set such that the game will ask you if you want to do anything with your priority. There's also only so many places you need to specifically be given priority to begin with (since MTGO always gives you priority to respond to something your opponent does), and it doesn't usually give anything away unless you press "6" to pass all priority (which the vast majority of players do anyways outside of Premier Level events).
Generally speaking playing on MTGO is quite a bit faster than playing in paper - the only time it ends up being slower is turns where nobody wants to do anything much other than drop a land, and even then it's not by much.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
hey man Odyssey was fuckin' awesome
Flashback has endured way beyond it and is one of the reasons Innistrad is great.
Posted?
a blue tempo shell is quickly forming just need the creatures to justify it now.
Nailed it. I have been playing the game for around a month now, and I am still learning the timing. Not only that, but learning what the cards actually do and implementing them correctly (I could speak volumes about my mistakes with this one), when to attack, how to read the opponents board, how to properly set up strategies for main phases, and I haven't even got into deck construction, though I have modified my precon decks a bit.
To say Magic is "ultra fiddly" is an understatement. It's also the best game I've ever played...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Magic gets a lot less complicated timing wise once you become more accustumed to it. The timing windows where you can do something are plenty but the ones where you actually want to do something considerably fewer, especially in standard and limited, something with less complexity, over formats like modern.
Like there's only very rare cases where you want to proactively do something in your opponents upkeep, draw, mp1, end of combat, mp2 for instance.
Like there's only very rare cases where you want to proactively do something in your opponents upkeep, draw, mp1, end of combat, mp2 for instance.
GregLombardi
Member
I got to meet Maro last night and take a pic with him. Highlight of the past year easily. Hes a very kind guy.
RuinerPrime
Member
I'm actually kind of excited for Arena. I think my gf might give it a try, she has dabbled in duels and she'd appreciate the new polish and look of Arena.
The expensive badges get 'em in three hours.
Normal prerelease start at 1PM ET, so that's in 6 hours?
I think Modern is in a pretty good place. Grixis Deaths Shadow is pretty good and shows up a lot, but there is a nice diverse play field. While you can still see some lands and know what deck is being played, but as soon as someone drops a land you dont immediately know.
Sleeve it up and bring it out.
acheron_xl
Member
They better not ever get rid of MTGO. 15 of the 21 years I've been playing Magic have been almost exclusively online. And I assume it still yields far more than it costs.
Well, every game I'm learning new mechanics or strategies. There's a ton to keep track of, for sure.
A Serious Man
Member
Ixalan feels old school in a way. Can't put my finger on it yet but it's very appealing.
That's fair haha. Yeah you're right about ramp/midrange I guess. Let's see if there are more low cost counter spells than the one shown so far. I doubt it but hey, one can hope.
The focus on dinosaurs kinda reminds me of Kavus, and that makes me happy. Also some of the colour and art combinations remind me of the first Ravnica, my most favourite block of all time besides the Odyssey-block.
QFT.
Oh god yes. I'll have a hard time resisting to start playing in real life again.
Odyssey was the best though.
This is complete bull. Magic has way, way, way, way more casual appeal than Hearthstone does.
Magic covers a wide spectrum of genres, themes, etc. etc. Hearthstone (as is now) is based entirely off of World of Warcraft, which is no longer the juggernaut it once was.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
and that will continue to happen for a long time. I'm still learning and I've been playing for 17 years but you'll have timing nailed down to be very instinctual soon enough.
GregLombardi
Member
Yup. I was hoping to get in first run but apparently thats happening at 10 and not at 1 like I thought?
You are completely missing the posters point. The subject matter may have more appeal, but learning how to play properly is a serious commitment and can be frustrating at times. Much much moreso than Hearthstone.
The paper game is fiddly as hell but there is no reason the digital one needs to be. I can also see there being a significant number of HS players who are starting to get burned out (from what I am hearing) and might be looking for the next step up in complexity.
I think a lot of those timing rules are taught a lot more easily by playing digitally. The best way to learn priority and when you're actually allowed to do things has always been to play a few rounds on MTGO. It looks like Arena doesn't show the phases as explicitly, but it still gets across the base idea that the active player gets to go first, and then the other player can respond, until the other player decides not to do something, in which case you can then also act.
Having to hit a big "Resolve" button when you also have cards lit up in your hand that you can cast is a super important visual indicator that can teach this stuff.
Having to hit a big "Resolve" button when you also have cards lit up in your hand that you can cast is a super important visual indicator that can teach this stuff.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Have you guys forgotten how much of Magic's audience is a bunch of kitchen table players for whom the complexities of the stack don't really much matter? The game has massive casual appeal already - putting it into this package is going to expand that audience significantly.
I really hope that-
a.) It's not manditory
b.) there is a seperate tutorial for people who know how to play MTG but want to learn the interface
c.) there aren't rewards locked behind it that you can't get if you skip it.
I'm really tempted to play ub pirates in standard. They remind me of faeries (my favorite modern deck)hey man Odyssey was fuckin' awesome
Flashback has endured way beyond it and is one of the reasons Innistrad is great.
Posted?
The beauty of the DotP game was that it allowed players to learn the rules regarding timing, interactions, legalities, etc. on their own via the game design without having to feel stupid by having another player constantly pointing out your mistakes over and over and over again. The overwhelming majority of Magic played worldwide is mostly kitchen table Magic where most of this stuff rarely comes up or is flat out ignored.
Yup, as nice as it is to have a game like HS that is simplistic, it can be a gateway to other games.
100% agree here.
Yup.
I have stopped saying Untap, Upkeep, Draw out loud. lol
How good was Shadows over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon? I know they rotate out of standard, but is there any good stuff for EDH?
DerangedHermit
Member
Man, i haven't played mtg (seriously) in 7-8 years but saw some video about "Commander" and started reading about it again and now i'm thinking on going to the pre-release ....
I prefer standard, but Commander/EDH is fun as hell. Turns/Actions get out of control in hurry, though.
SigmasonicX
Member
By the way, decided not to change the thread title for Iconic Masters, since everyone seems opposed.