[Mrbob]

That userbase comparison is silly. Anyone with a PC can create a steam account, so it had better be much higher than the number of 360 accounts. You can still join a friend if you see them playing the game on steam, right? And if steamworks is your primary use for a friends list your GFWL one should be pretty empty, right? Seems like a complaint just for the sake of making a complaint.

Valve only counts active users for Steam.

Here is the thing. If the game is Steamworks I can click on his name in Steam and join the game. If it is GFWL, I can see this person playing the game in steam but I can't join from his name. I have to go into the game, then I can join the game through a GFWL user name if I have it. It is an extra layer I have to go through which doesn't have to be there. It really isn't needed. Steamworks already has the best of Xbox Live feature set and more.

[TouchMyBox]

Being able to send/recieve messages to friends is a nice upside as well - feeling connected to that live friends list that I use on 360 is a nice thing to have as well. This should be a good way to help some 360 gamers transition to PC, especially if they have much better PC hardware that the game would run on. I imagine using a whole new friends list on steam or gamespy is at least a small reason that some 360 gamers with good PC hardware don't play on PC.

I'm still not seeing a reason as to why someone who is totally infatuated with xbox live as to find value in their friends lists and achievement points would ever wish to instead have that experience in the bizzaro-land of games for windows live where you're cornered off in the loser kid corner of the class and completely segregated from everything that makes xbox live kind of cool. Hell, you can't even get into a party chat with your friends who are playing halo: reach. The whole system is useless.

[Fëanor]

Very nice - I like getting achievements for PC titles.

Yup, same here.

[bidaum]

I mean just to be clear I love steam - it does a lot of things better than live does. I just wanted to know what it is that caused this instant reaction because I've never had a problem with it. Overall it seems like pretty minor stuff other than the TV show thing. That just makes no sense.

I could be off base, but I think the dislike of gfwl comes in part from the perception that Microsoft has come late to the party, and tried to shoehorn their way into a market by leveraging their money/influence to make it mandatory for some games. Add to that the fact that its generally received as being mediocre at what it does do. I think there is also some general ill-will with Microsoft doing this in a number of other places as well in the recent past.

[Rainier]

I could be off base, but I think the dislike of gfwl comes in part from the perception that Microsoft has come late to the party, and tried to shoehorn their way into a market by leveraging their money/influence to make it mandatory for some games. Add to that the fact that its generally received as being mediocre at what it does do. I think there is also some general ill-will with Microsoft doing this in a number of other places as well in the recent past.

I don't think it's Microsoft bashing, most people here that have a 360 love what Live did for multiplayer. GFW was supposed to be the Windows equivalent, and it fell far short, almost like a half-assed port.

[jaundicejuice]

That's a pity, I was going to buy the game.

[Pimpbaa]

I love steam, but I don't get the GFWL hate. At least in it's current state.

[bidaum]

I don't think it's outright MS bashing, but I think there could be an undercurrent of skepticism that gets added in to the mix when people are getting pissed with it for other reasons.

[Htown]

And there goes all interest.

[Sinatar]

I love steam, but I don't get the GFWL hate. At least in it's current state.

They had their chance to try and do something with PC gaming using the Games for Windows brand and completely shit the bed. Everything since has been desperate damage control but the fact of the matter is that the war is over. Steam owns PC gaming, Valve won and Microsofts resistance to that does nothing but splinter the player base.

[Q8D3vil]

its sad but i don't give shit.
i miss epic games on pc, so day fucking 1 for me.

[Loxley]

I love steam, but I don't get the GFWL hate. At least in it's current state.

Same here.

:lol :lol at the knee-jerk overreactions in this thread. I have no problem with people disliking GFWL, but some of you are acting like it's a goddamn Trojan.

[Crunched]

Doesn't make a difference to me. The only game that's given me serious trouble with GFWL is Universe at War, and that was quite a while ago. I've run into minor snags here and there. My only remaining complaint is the length of time it takes to download an update. It's nice being able to communicate with console gamer friends while I'm on PC.

They had their chance to try and do something with PC gaming using the Games for Windows brand and completely shit the bed. Everything since has been desperate damage control but the fact of the matter is that the war is over. Steam owns PC gaming, Valve won and Microsofts resistance to that does nothing but splinter the player base.

Don't know about you, but plenty of my games work perfectly with GFWL and Steam at the same time. It's not like one stops you from using the other.

[EviLore]

5 bucks holiday 2011.

[Jay Shadow]

I love steam, but I don't get the GFWL hate. At least in it's current state.

Well, if I'm gonna be connected to my friends on 360, I'd kinda like to have party and voice message support since none of them type out messages on a console. I'd also like a stand alone program with those social features included, sort of like booting into the dashboard, instead of a stand alone program that is only a store. Basically if they're gonna do Live, then REALLY do Live already.

Other then that I don't really mind it on the basic interface that's there. I think my Live account has more achievements from PC games than it does for 360 games at this point.

[ghst]

Same here. :lol :lol at the knee-jerk overreactions in this thread. I have no problem with people disliking GFWL, but some of you are acting like it's a goddamn Trojan.

i'd say i'm being pretty measured.

[Hellsing321]

Not surprised, still sucks though.

[shintoki]

5 bucks holiday 2011.

That's the best part of PC gaming! Everything is 5$ on a Steam Sale eventually.

[Volcynika]

Well it took GFWL only about a month to fix the broken Steam version of Lost Planet 2, so maybe they can make progress with this game!

[TheVampire]

GFWL?

Ah fuck that


*removes pre-order*

[subversus]

Ah, what a shame. I remember how Gears of War PC didn't want to update, login, lost my saves, crashed numerous times on startup because of this shit etc etc.

but I'm sure nobody at Epic really care because this is clearly a console-oriented game and they don't expect big sales from PC. Also MS is in dire need of its POS system being shoven in at least another blockbuster title this year and Epic is a sure shot when it comes to this.


I'll wait for Christmas Steam sale. I'll suffer but at least pay half or even less of what I intended to pay.

[Drkirby]

The only G FWL game that gave me troubles is Red Faction Guerilla. Other than that never had any problems.

I had to do updates 10 times in a row before Street Fighter IV would let me play online. Ether the update was glitched and got stuck in a loop, or they have a really bad patching system.

[Salacious Crumb]

GFWL is proper garbage. Unless you're invested in the Live platform (ie A heavy 360 user) there's no incentive to use it, and it only acts as a hindrance.

But I'll still buy bulletstorm at a low price, painkiller was a blast and this looks pretty good.

[Ifrit]

I don't have anything against GFWL, never really had a problem with it, and being able to use my xbox gamertag and earn live achivements is nice

Didn't know there was going to be a PC version, will buy

[InertiaXr]

This is hilarious. GFWL is nearly universally panned, but devs and publishers still continue to use it, albeit occasionally. Why? Especially when compared to the usefulness of Steamworks...:lol

[Carlisle]

Everytime I read GFWL I think God Fucks White Ladies.

On topic, I don't have a problem with either one.

[Max]

Zero problems with GFWL for me.

Get over it.

[Crunched]

Zero problems with GFWL for me. Get over it.

The fuck? :lol

Just because you've never had a problem doesn't mean countless others have likewise been spared.

[Max]

I lied. Shadowrun wouldn't work unless I removed some random files from system32.

But really, it can't be that bad, still?

[Salacious Crumb]

I lied. Shadowrun wouldn't work unless I removed some random files from system32. But really, it can't be that bad, still?

It's worse than bad, it's annoying.

[dLMN8R]

I love steam, but I don't get the GFWL hate. At least in it's current state.

Care to explain how things have improved "in it's [sic] current state" compared to the problems explained in this thread?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404721

Zero problems with GFWL for me. Get over it.

Why don't you "get over it" that some people actually have problems with GFW Live?

Why don't you "get over it" that some people would prefer an anticipated game to use an actually competent framework that takes advantages of the platform's strengths instead of one that basically tries to work against it in every form?

[Daigoro]

no problems with GFWL either. never had an issue.

yeah the patch thing can be annoying, but its not like Steam hasn't has similar issues with certain games.

i know this isnt supposed to be a Steam vs GFWL thread (or is it?), but Steam has its own issues that crop up from time to time as well folks.

the versus multiplayer in this is 360 exclusive anyways so who cares

the fuck does this even mean? explain please, or should we just ignore you?

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I couldn't give a rat's ass, I dislike GfWL and Steam equally and I wish neither of them existed.

[Atomski]

I own a few GFWL games.. I don't see what all the hubub is about.

[WickedLaharl]

awesome. will probably double dip if it ends up being good.

[Cronox]

Whiners.

I, for one, look forward to padding my xbox achievements. Also, GFWL doesn't prevent the game from being on Steam. No biggie.

[perryfarrell]

GFWL is a user-unfriendly piece of crap bloatware that's only in your way.

Not buying.

[Stallion Free]

Ughhhhhh. I was hoping so bad that the UDK Steamworks implementation would get us Steamworks in here.

[Plasma]

I don't mind GFWL that much but because it is an EA game you can guarantee you'll have to be signed into your EA account as well so that will be another layer of DRM.

[The Faceless Master]

maybe Valve should have offered them hats to use Steamworks instead...

[Stumpokapow]

Zero problems with GFWL for me. Get over it.

If you don't care about what anyone else thinks, why bother posting in a forum? The door is over there.

[Rad-]

I don't get the GFWL hate. Has always worked fine for me. I think people don't remember what a mess Steam was when it launched. Much worse than GFWL currently.

[The Dutch Slayer]

That is really to bad that will ensure that I´m only going to play the SP part of the game.
Buy the LE for 360, for the GoW3 beta and the pc version to play the SP.

I was really looking forward to playing the MP but on GFWL means no servers no settings no nothing that anyone interested in playing a MP pc game would want.

[Foliorum Viridum]

I don't get the GFWL hate.

I've put 100 hours into F1 2010 this year, which uses it, and everything is fine and even the voice codec is better now. I'm also playing Resi 5 and again it's not hindering my experience at all. It's matched me with my friend perfectly.

As long as the titles are up on Steam, I don't care. Give me GFWL over something like Rockstar's Social Club which has caused me no end of problems.

[Ysiadmihi]

I don't get the GFWL hate. Has always worked fine for me.

It's not that GFWL doesn't work. It does.

It's just so feature light and slow that it's almost like Microsoft is spitting in your face for using it. It shouldn't take me longer to send a message on GFWL than it did on The Zone over 10 years ago.

[Stumpokapow]

I don't get the GFWL hate. Has always worked fine for me. I think people don't remember what a mess Steam was when it launched. Much worse than GFWL currently.

That's absolutely true. Steam on day one was significantly worse than GFWL today... of course, Steam on day one was also significantly worse than Steam today, so I'm not really sure that the angle is for the comparison.

For all the people saying "I have no idea what anyone is complaining about", here are the major issues with GFWL:
- Profile issues. Signing in on a profile on Xbox 360 (or booting up a 360 if the profile is set to auto sign-in) will kick you out of a game on GFWL. This is true, of course, with Steam on multiple computers (or MSN or a lot of other user profile things), but it's much more likely to be triggered in a 2+ person household with a 360 and a PC.

- DRM issues. Different games have different DRM. Some games (I'll give an example that's a crappy game but it's true for good ones as well--Where's Waldo) are locked to one gamertag. This is a more restrictive licensing system than the 360 and for really no reason. I understand that the newer release games have more flexible DRM in many cases, but the inconsistency is just as annoying as the restrictiveness.

- Patching issues. To patch a game you need to launch the game, sign in to your gamertag, get the patch message, get booted out of the game, download-and-install the patch (which itself requires you to wait rather than having it done in the background like Steam), relaunch the game, and re-sign in. On the other side, developers have to submit patches through MS QA which incurs them additional costs as well as slows the process down immensely. The reason that Valve is able to, say, improve Team Fortress 2 so often, is because no such hurdle exists on Steam.

- Pay DLC / Free DLC. Steam has absolutely no input or desire for input on how much, what kind, and how expensive DLC is. If a developer wants to pump out tons of free DLC, Steam is all for that. MS has historically interfered with developers elsewhere who try to make free DLC.

- Missing features. Steam supports cloud saves. Steam supports backups of your game. Steam has resolved most/all their issues with playing offline. Maybe Epic would have used cloud saving, maybe not. I would assume they would, since Valve bends over backwards to make it easy for developers to do so.

- Serious bugs, technical issues, and compatibility issues. GFWL is less router-friendly than Steam; as in far more people experience connectivity issues. GFWL has had a number of bugs, including client upgrade bugs, that have resulted in a total nightmare or many users. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, installing GFWL breaks Samba shares in most other operating systems and for most media players, jeopardizing your ability to share media across your house. This is a hassle. Maybe you haven't experienced it. Congratulations. Just like not having had an RRoD does not mean that 2005 vinage 360s are a stable, sturdy machine, not having experience problems with GFWL doesn't mean that there aren't serious technical issues.

- No client. Some people don't like running the Steam client. For them, this is an advantage. Of course you're still "running" a GFWL client, it's just only the overlay-style components. It's not like you're saving resources, really. Either way, for those of us who make use of the Steam client--to be able to message people when they're not in games or when we're not in games, GFWL's setup (client for the marketplace, no client just to chill out) is unusual.

- Overlay is less functional. On Steam you can use the overlay to check out a walkthrough, browse GAF, or really do whatever you want. On GFWL, the overlay is strictly for Live messaging and viewing game achievements. Yes, you can alt-tab out of the game, but the impact of doing so varies per game and with Steam you don't have to.

- GFWL is not free for developers, Steamworks is totally 100% free.

- Ongoing support. Compare Valve's record and Microsoft's record on improving their products on PC and innovating features on PC. If Microsoft launches the Xbox 720, will they drop GFWL again? They laid off most of the team at one point and cancelled in-progress PC ports and didn't greenlight anything new for ages. I don't doubt the sincerity of Microsoft's current commitment (just like I don't doubt the sincerity of their current commitment to IE, for example), but there's nothing stopping them from just cutting and running when corporate priorities shift, and there's virtually no chance of that happening with Valve. I don't think this will involve, say, discontinuing activation servers or closing up shop, but I do think this will involve periods of stagnation if the product is not given favoured son status. Also, remember that Microsoft tried unsuccessfully to charge money for multiplayer on PC. While I commend them for fixing that error, I don't think there's anything precluding them from trying again in the future--they discontinued it because it was unpopular, not because they recognized that it was a bad idea. Valve will never charge for multiplayer :p

Now, the advantages of GFWL:
- You get to buy things using Microsoft points. This isn't actually an advantage, because you can use a scrip system on Steam, you have more payment options on Steam than on GFWL, the sale benefit of being able to accumulate cheap points for MS purchases is more than eclipsed by Steam's more aggressive sales, etc.

- You earn achievements that earn Microsoft gamerscore. Of course there are still achievements on Steam, Valve offers developers more flexibility with implementing, changing, and adding them, and nothing is really different. Is this an advantage? Yes, for people who care about their gamerscore. But really it boils down to "We're Microsoft, bitch" and I'm not sure how the 360 version doesn't cover that.

- You get to message back and forth with your Microsoft friends. Is this an advantage? It is if most of your friends are on the 360. It isn't if most of your friends are on Steam. If your friends are on both, it's neither an advantage nor a disadvantage, although personally I prefer Steam chat to MS messages, because I can continue the conversation when I finish playing the game I'm playing.

What all three advantages have in common is that they're all "If you love Microsoft and want to surround yourself with Microsoft's version of everything, use Microsoft Games for Windows Live for your Microsoft needs". Which is fine, but you guys should consider that all of those Microsoft things are true for the 360 version, and if this game didn't use GFWL, you guys would buy the 360 version. That's totally cool and all, but since you were going to buy the Microsoft version regardless, the rest of us are stuck with the disadvantages and don't necessarily make use of these advantages!

[Visualante]

Well there goes my middling interest. Apologies Epic, Microsoft but I don't trust players to continue using GFWL for multiplayer.

Truly sent to die.

5 bucks holiday 2011.

$1 GFWL closing down sale.

Microsoft and Epic are in bed together. News at 11.

Isn't this saying only apt when a child could have predicted this story? Given that EA is publishing and Epic implemented Steamworks for the Unreal games I don't think this announcement was a given.

[Foliorum Viridum]

You have to pay to use GFWL? Jesus christ. Microsoft should be begging developers to use it. :lol

[54-46!]

Was looking forward to this, now I'm NOPE.JPG

[Stumpokapow]

You have to pay to use GFWL? Jesus christ. Microsoft should be begging developers to use it. :lol

Depends on how you use it. For example, want to patch your game? First patch is free. Next patch is thousands of dollars. I believe initial releases have to go through cert, which also costs money, as well. As far as I know, matchmaking remains free for developers. Someone who has experience making a game with GFWL can clarify.

Valve charges $0 for Steamworks, $0 for using any feature of Steamworks, $0 for issuing new content, $0 for issuing two thousand five hundred patches, etc.