[Graphics Horse]

It was some time in 2007 or 2008 (slightly before NXE) that they started packing in a 256meg memory card.

Oh wow, I'd forgotten it didn't have one of those bundled from the off. At least the days of systems which don't come with any means of saving are mostly behind us, I think they're still doing that with the PSP?

[Grampa Simpson]

Wait you're actually expecting PS4 and Xbox 720 to not include a HDD with every system? Why would they automatically start their next-gen systems worse than their last gen systems? For shits and giggles?

In the transition from XBOX1 to XBOX360 MS dropped the hard drive. Not including any sort of save memory with the system was a mistake, but dropping the hard drive helped them drop $45 build cost from every system when not all users were using it.

I expect that the Next XBox will include some sort of save memory, but forgo the expensive hard drive except as an option that's packed in with a certain percentage of SKUs. Whether that percentage is 30% or 80% or somewhere in between is the real question.

[Darryl]

Can anyone imagine what EAD main console Zelda team could do with a huge leap beyond GameCube & Wii graphics in an HD Zelda? I mean, Twilight Princess is still a good looking game aside from the bad textures. What they could do with a console that's somewhat above Xbox 360/PS3 graphics just boggles the mind. Twilight Princess was a very well designed game even though its on the easy side. I hope they go back to that style (im not liking how Skyward Sword looks right now...too pastel). Imagine a 50 fold leap above Wii (Xbox 360 is 20x Wii). It just blows my mind guys, what Zelda on Cafe could look like.

I don't even want to know. It would just blow my mind. I could talk all day about the features they could throw into a properly-done next gen Zelda game.

They could take the Cel-shaded route out, or go with a retro-themed top-down game like Four Swords (which they've already hinted at was being made?) out and they wouldn't have to worry about the pressure of next-gen detail. They really need something to showcase the power of a next-gen console, and Zelda would be the series to do it with. I don't care if they maintain Wii-level Mario games, but if Zelda doesn't jump up a notch I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

[Amir0x]

See, I'd disagree that it was the lack of a harddrive across all skus that prevented the 360 from gaining DLC momentum early on. The reality is that there just wasn't the required infrastructure to support the marketplace at the time. I think I recall xbox live having a really small friends list cap as well as a few other now-unheard of restrictions back when it first launched. If nintendo has a respectable marketplace up from the beginning, and that is a very big IF, there is zero reason developers wouldn't put their stuff onto it. The most self-sabotaging move nintendo could do is once more enforce file size restrictions and retain the arbitrary and disorganized submission process they presently have in place. Even microsoft had no idea what a juggernaught DLC would turn into, which is why it took so long to get the 360 marketplace to get to where it is today.

Why do you keep discussing DLC? I've literally never even mentioned it in any of my arguments until you brought it up in the last few posts :P

Nintendo could only have a respectable marketplace if they do not have an obscene restriction in place from day one like developers only being able to depend on 8GB of space and then whatever SD cards consumers have on hand. In this regard, it's related to the issue of not having only a tiny amount of flash memory on board. They need at least 32 gigs of whatever they decide to go with in every system, whether it's a HDD or flash memory.

As far as installs go, there are benefits for sure but I really believe few will care, especially since we'll have optical drives far superior to the 360/PS3. Nintendo is and always have been obsessed with fast read speeds and reduced loading times. Texture pop-in and whatnot are improved by installs but that's only because it circumvents bottlenecks that may be absent in the cafe.

There is no way Cafe will be advanced enough to avoid texture pop-in, particularly in genres like open world games. I have a ridiculously high end PC that is probably superior to whatever Nintendo is planning on putting out to a factor of eight to one.

That said, there are ways to reduce it and install to HDD is one. Along with the loading benefits, I'd say it is the type of thing that even if a majority of people didn't know it existed or even cared, it's worth doing since it makes objectively superior gaming experiences and that is what should be designed toward: the ideal of gaming, not the ideal of the ignorant masses. And that may sound harsh, but that's the general argument. The majority might not use something, therefore it makes sense to cut that option out or simply not have it to begin with. As if popularity is what should dictate system design rather than the most idealized representation of a headache-free platform you can humanly make... we all know what popularity nets us. it nets us people liking TRANSFORMERS so much that we get three of those films ;)

The point here is simply Nintendo should be designing the system based on what makes games better, no matter how many people realize the system is making life better for them. Ignorance is not something that should be designed toward.

It's just that not including a HDD and pricing the cafe lower as a result is most likely in the interest of gamers at large.

Including an 8GB flash memory is almost certainly as cheap as including a 60GB HDD. So even that argument is empty. If they're going to do it, they might as well go all in and not limit developers and consumers.

The story you listed is directly at odds with the NPD report, which is strange. I'm more suspicious of Microsoft's figure though since they're less impartial than NPD. In any case, including HDD support but excluding an HDD from the box feels reasonable to me because it gives consumers a choice rather than forcing them to pay for something they may not use. The logic might be that 8gb is enough for most people to have a taste of what the marketplace can offer, maybe download a handful of demos or one or two map packs and whatnot. At that point, the consumer can make the choice themselves as to whether they want to go out and buy more storage and how much.

Even Sony released similarly impressive statistics (this was when PSN surpassed XBL for registered users):

PlayStation Store offers more than 14,500 diverse digital content, ranging from exclusive on-line games, downloadable version of UMD titles, game demos and items, and titles from "Game Archive," through which legendary and popular titles from the original PlayStation are made playable on PS3 and PSP, to more than 5,900 movies and TV episodes that are available through Video Delivery Service*3 that started in the United States in July 2008. To date, more than 380 million pieces of content*4 have been downloaded, with total sales exceeding 180 million US dollars*5, and the business scale is rapidly expanding.

Way back in the day, so it's improved since then. Considering the PS3 userbase, this ends up being a big percentage of users who purchase downloadable content of some kind when you do the math and break down costs.

Either way, I'd say it is clear downloadable games and content is important to a massive section of gamers, even if it's not quite the majority. Certainly important enough to start making sure a system is designed around the convenience of it.

[Grampa Simpson]

Including an 8GB flash memory is almost certainly as cheap as including a 60GB HDD. So even that argument is empty. If they're going to do it, they might as well go all in and not limit developers and consumers.

Where can you find 4,000,000 60GB Hard Drives at $11 a unit?

There's a floor to the cost of a hard drive - even in bulk - and it's somewhere between $30 and $45.

That said, I'm pretty sure that manufacturing has all but ceased on 120gig drives.

[Graphics Horse]

Including an 8GB flash memory is almost certainly as cheap as including a 60GB HDD. So even that argument is empty.

Does anyone even make 60GB HDDs anymore? I got the impression it wasn't cost efficient.
The price doesn't scale linearly like flash cards *almost* do, there's just too many materials involved. $8 will buy you an 8GB retail flash stick from Amazon.

[AniHawk]

Can anyone imagine what EAD main console Zelda team could do with a huge leap beyond GameCube & Wii graphics in an HD Zelda? I mean, Twilight Princess is still a good looking game aside from the bad textures. What they could do with a console that's somewhat above Xbox 360/PS3 graphics just boggles the mind. Twilight Princess was a very well designed game even though its on the easy side. I hope they go back to that style (im not liking how Skyward Sword looks right now...too pastel). Imagine a 50 fold leap above Wii (Xbox 360 is 20x Wii). It just blows my mind guys, what Zelda on Cafe could look like.

i want a zelda that most resembles its concept art. so more tww/ss, less oot/tp.

i'm sure we're going to see at least one awesome realistic-yet-stylish action-adventure on the thing (at this rate it'll probably be beyond good & evil 2 sometime in 2017). however, i think the amount of cel-shaded stuff we'll see will start to slip since people don't have to mask the look of their games anymore to hide the power of the system.

[Amir0x]

i want a zelda that most resembles its concept art. so more tww/ss, less oot/tp. i'm sure we're going to see at least one awesome realistic-yet-stylish action-adventure on the thing (at this rate it'll probably be beyond good & evil 2 sometime in 2017). however, i think the amount of cel-shaded stuff we'll see will start to slip since people don't have to mask the look of their games anymore to hide the power of the system.

fuck that next-gen cel-shading is more impressive than last-gen cel-shading

more cel-shaded games please

[AniHawk]

fuck that next-gen cel-shading is more impressive than last-gen cel-shading more cel-shaded games please

well developers have even less of a reason to now that the wii is dead. i suppose it will continue on handhelds, perhaps.

we've never really had a game world that looks like you're playing an actual cartoon. although ni no kuni looks like it's getting pretty close.



or imagine a metroid prime remake in the style of the original concept art with improved level design and controls.

[herzogzwei1989]

I don't even want to know. It would just blow my mind. I could talk all day about the features they could throw into a properly-done next gen Zelda game. They could take the Cel-shaded route out, or go with a retro-themed top-down game like Four Swords (which they've already hinted at was being made?) out and they wouldn't have to worry about the pressure of next-gen detail. They really need something to showcase the power of a next-gen console, and Zelda would be the series to do it with. I don't care if they maintain Wii-level Mario games, but if Zelda doesn't jump up a notch I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

I think next-gen Cafe Mario will resemble Galaxy in graphics, just taken to a whole new level. As for Zelda, they've got to make it look mind-blowing with all the rich detail that are in modern western RPGs like Syrim and Witcher 2. I'm probably one of the few that wouldn't mind another OoT/TP game, only with modern graphics.

[ReyVGM]

As for Zelda, they've got to make it look mind-blowing with all the rich detail that are in modern western RPGs like Syrim and Witcher 2.

Not gonna happen. Japanese devs, specially Nintendo, tend more to do artistic looking games and not super-detailed-realistic games.

[From The Dust]

well developers have even less of a reason to now that the wii is dead. i suppose it will continue on handhelds, perhaps. we've never really had a game world that looks like you're playing an actual cartoon. although ni no kuni looks like it's getting pretty close. [img]http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2010/06/ninokuni62410.jpg[/mg]

it still looks off to me. Ultimate Ninja Clash always looked better to me

[AceBandage]

Please, no realistic Zelda.
Make it as wacky and crazy as possible.

[Metallix]

A personal acquaintance of mine sent me this list, saying it came from a source close to Nintendo. It's probably fake, but I figured I'd share anyway:

--First Party--

::Launch Games::

Extreme Sports Cafe ("New" IP, Combines 1080 and Wave Race + Other Sports)
Pikmin Cafe (Interfaces with Pikmin 3DS)
Endless Ocean Cafe
Nintendogs Cafe Kennel (Interfaces with Nintendogs + Cats)
Mii Explore (New IP, Multiplayer Adventure Game)

::Launch Window::

Kirby's Epic Yarn 2 (Launch Window, Multiplayer)
Wario Ware Cafe (Launch - Launch Window?)

::Future Games::

Super Mario Cafe (Late 2012/Early 2013, Paradigm Shift ala SM64)
Legend of Paper Zelda (Mid 2012, Paper Mario version of SNES Zelda)
Fire Emblem Cafe (Late 2012)
Retro Studios IP (Late 2012, New IP)
Project Sora IP (New IP)
Monolith Soft RPG (New IP)
Miyamoto Game (New IP)

--Third Party--

::Launch Games::

Battlefield 3 (Extra Content)
Street Fighter X Tekken (Timed Exclusive)
SSX
Super Monkey Ball Cafe
Tony Hawk Cafe
Ridge Racer Cafe
Mass Effect 3 (Possibly with ME 1 + 2?)
InVersion
Dragons Dogma
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier
Metal Gear Solid: Rising (Extra Content)
Silent Hill: Downpour (Extra Content)
PES 2013 Cafe (Timed Exclusive)
Trauma Center Cafe

::Launch Window::

Modern Warfare 3
Grand Theft Auto V (Launch?, Timed Exclusive)
Dead Space Spin Off
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Cafe
Soul Caliber V (Extra Content)

::Future Games::

Sonic Cafe (Sonic Generations?)
Platinum Games IP (Bayonetta 2?)
Phantasty Star Online 2 (Late 2012?)
SEGA Game (???)
The Amazing Spider-Man: The Game
Rockstar Game (New IP?)
BioShock Infinite (Timed Exclusive)
Red Steel III
Beyond Good & Evil 2
Doom 4
Madden 2013 (Timed Exclusive)
Tiger Woods 13
Fight Night Cafe
Need for Speed Cafe
Level-5 Game (New IP)
Kingdom Hearts Cafe (Possibly KH3)
Square Enix Game (New IP)
Square Enix Game (???)
Grasshopper Game (New IP or No More Heroes 3)
Valve Game (Possibly a collection set + new game?)
Epic Games (New IP, Bulletstorm 2 or New Gears of War Trilogy exclusive to Cafe)


Once again, I can't confirm the validity of this information, but I figured it may be worth discussing, on the off chance that it's real.

[AceBandage]

Paper Zelda?
Yeah... too good to be true.

[Erebus]

Too many third party timed exclusives. No way that's real.

[wonderfuldays]

Paper Mario version of SNES Zelda, DO WANT.

[EricDiesel]

Please, no realistic Zelda. Make it as wacky and crazy as possible.

Most of my favorite characters of the series are from Wind Waker and Majora's Mask. I can't say I want it to turn into some Lord of the Rings clone. I don't know why people still clamor for a blood filled adult Zelda. Doesn't sound fun to me.

[KAL2006]

A personal acquaintance of mine sent me this list, saying it came from a source close to Nintendo. It's probably fake, but I figured I'd share anyway: --First Party-- ::Launch Games:: Extreme Sports Cafe ("New" IP, Combines 1080 and Wave Race + Other Sports) Pikmin Cafe (Interfaces with Pikmin 3DS) Endless Ocean Cafe Nintendogs Cafe Kennel (Interfaces with Nintendogs + Cats) Mii Explore (New IP, Multiplayer Adventure Game) ::Launch Window:: Kirby's Epic Yarn 2 (Launch Window, Multiplayer) Wario Ware Cafe (Launch - Launch Window?) ::Future Games:: Super Mario Cafe (Late 2012/Early 2013, Paradigm Shift ala SM64) Legend of Paper Zelda (Mid 2012, Paper Mario version of SNES Zelda) Fire Emblem Cafe (Late 2012) Retro Studios IP (Late 2012, New IP) Project Sora IP (New IP) Monolith Soft RPG (New IP) Miyamoto Game (New IP) --Third Party-- ::Launch Games:: Battlefield 3 (Extra Content) Street Fighter X Tekken (Timed Exclusive) SSX Super Monkey Ball Cafe Tony Hawk Cafe Ridge Racer Cafe Mass Effect 3 (Possibly with ME 1 + 2?) InVersion Dragons Dogma Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier Metal Gear Solid: Rising (Extra Content) Silent Hill: Downpour (Extra Content) PES 2013 Cafe (Timed Exclusive) Trauma Center Cafe ::Launch Window:: Modern Warfare 3 Grand Theft Auto V (Launch?, Timed Exclusive) Dead Space Spin Off Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Cafe Soul Caliber V (Extra Content) ::Future Games:: Sonic Cafe (Sonic Generations?) Platinum Games IP (Bayonetta 2?) Phantasty Star Online 2 (Late 2012?) SEGA Game (???) The Amazing Spider-Man: The Game Rockstar Game (New IP?) BioShock Infinite (Timed Exclusive) Red Steel III Beyond Good & Evil 2 Doom 4 Madden 2013 (Timed Exclusive) Tiger Woods 13 Fight Night Cafe Need for Speed Cafe Level-5 Game (New IP) Kingdom Hearts Cafe (Possibly KH3) Square Enix Game (New IP) Square Enix Game (???) Grasshopper Game (New IP or No More Heroes 3) Valve Game (Possibly a collection set + new game?) Epic Games (New IP, Bulletstorm 2 or New Gears of War Trilogy exclusive to Cafe) Once again, I can't confirm the validity of this information, but I figured it may be worth discussing, on the off chance that it's real.

why even bother posting this, at least post credible rumors not some personal acquaintance shit, this is the sort of shit I used to see in GameFAQs forum, who is this personal acquaintance, does he work for Nintendo or is he just a random friend of yours.

[herzogzwei1989]

Zelda does not have to be realistic at all, it can be pure fantasy. Even Twilight Princess has cel-shading in it. I want another one, but in HD. I didn't like Wind Waker that much. Not because it was cel-shaded, but because of the art-direction, and lack of dungeons. If that makes any sense. I loved Twilight Princess more than any other Zelda game.

[Metallix]

why even bother posting this, at least post credible rumors not some personal acquaintance shit, this is the sort of shit I used to see in GameFAQs forum, who is this personal acquaintance, does he work for Nintendo or is he just a random friend of yours.

He's a friend of mine who alleges to have a contact in Nintendo of America, and apparently this is the list that we'll be seeing at E3.

[AceBandage]

He's a friend of mine who alleges to have a contact in Nintendo of America, and apparently this is the list that we'll be seeing at E3.

I doubt even NoA has a full list of what they'll show at E3 yet.

[Darryl]

I highly doubt any single employee could possibly know that much information and be able to leak it.

On the other hand, Paper Zelda would be pretty cool. I really hope they give us something better than that, though. I would like a revisioned SNES Zelda, but Paper? That's kinda cheap. There are also way too many new IPs on there. 4 in house developers all working on something new? No way. I'd be surprised if we got one at launch. That's so risky.

I hope all of the third party games are true, but I seriously hope Nintendo has this better planned than that.

[Sammy Samusu]

Grand Theft Auto V (Timed Exclusive)

Not gonna happen, and neither will this game be announced at Nintendo's conference. But (!) the chances we get a Cafe Edition are prety good.

[AceBandage]

I dunno, NMH3 being shown would pretty much destroy any thing I could hope would be there.

[Graphics Horse]

I made it quite far, up to BG&Evil2 :( .
Nothing crazy there in terms of plausible speculation, but COD not listed as launch is strange, that's due this Winter surely?
Actually the more I look the more absurd it seems in terms of volume.

[CoffeeJanitor]

GIANT MADE UP GAMER WISH LIST

Yeah, doubtful

[goldenpp72]

nothing on cafe will be 'timed exclusive', especially shit like bioshock or grand theft auto.. lol

[shadyspace]

The 3rd party stuff sounding way better than the 1st party stuff is what sets my bullshit meter off.

[Black-Wind]

[I]--First Party-- ::Launch Games:: Pikmin Cafe (Interfaces with Pikmin 3DS) Nintendogs Cafe Kennel (Interfaces with Nintendogs + Cats) ::Future Games:: Super Mario Cafe (Late 2012/Early 2013, Paradigm Shift ala SM64) Legend of Paper Zelda (Mid 2012, Paper Mario version of SNES Zelda) Fire Emblem Cafe (Late 2012) Retro Studios IP (Late 2012, New IP) Project Sora IP (New IP) Monolith Soft RPG (New IP) Miyamoto Game (New IP) [

Makes me WANT this to be true.

But there are FAR too much awesome for this to be true.

[wsippel]

If this isn't fake, I'll eat a crow - stuffed with hats.

[Knux-Future]

I hate those types of list because my inner fanboy gets all happy but my inner realist know that shit is fake.


Paper Zelda is pimp and needs to happen yesterday, tho.

[Metallix]

Yeah, doubtful

Sorry, didn't mean to upset. I assure you, I did not make it up.

[shadyspace]

Sorry, didn't mean to upset. I assure you, I did not make it up.

Hey, thanks for posting it. Finally gets us off hard drive talk :lol

[Door2Dawn]

The 3rd party stuff sounding way better than the 1st party stuff is what sets my bullshit meter off.

Nintendo must be sucking some good ass dick.

[Poyunch]

Two Pikmin games. Sheeeiiiittt. Too good to be true.

Anyway if it were true I bet the Platinum IP would be that one game with Jack from Madworld since Madworld was on Wii. Even if I preferred Bayonetta since it most likely will be the better game.

[AceBandage]

So yeah... a No More Heroes Game, with Shinobu and Sylvia communicating to you on the controller screen while you're in the middle of fights. Praising/berating you.
That makes me all giggly.

[GT Vespene]

Two Pikimin games...

[Father_Brain]

That list lost most semblance of plausibility at Paper Zelda. And we know how secretive Nintendo is; I very much doubt that anyone much below Reggie's level knows the complete Cafe E3 lineup just under four weeks out. Lastly, it's way, way too far in advance for that many titles to be confirmed for launch day.

[Ollie Pooch]

I thought Cafe was a codename. Why then would they launch games called Pikmin Cafe and Super Mario Cafe? Who takes the time to make up a list like that?

[Poyunch]

I thought Cafe was a codename. Why then would they launch games called Pikmin Cafe and Super Mario Cafe? Who takes the time to make up a list like that?

Just like Zelda Wii, they're probably just placeholder names. Not that I believe the list though.

[Door2Dawn]

Paper Zelda would be fucking amazing,so a small part of me hopes that list is somewhat true.

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I can not believe any of you are taking that list seriously. O_O

NeoGaf? Is this you? Come on! We are supposed to elite!

[Fernando Rocker]

Metallix... I'm telling you this with GAF as a witness...

If that list is true, I will buy you (via Amazon) a game from that list, full price.

[AceBandage]

I can not believe any of you are taking that list seriously. O_O NeoGaf? Is this you? Come on! We are supposed to elite!

No one thinks it's real...
We're just imagining the possibilities.

[yencid]

I thought Cafe was a codename. Why then would they launch games called Pikmin Cafe and Super Mario Cafe? Who takes the time to make up a list like that?

um.... those are also codenames...

[Knux-Future]

Metallix... I'm telling you this with GAF as a witness... If that list is true, I will buy you (via Amazon) a game from that list, full price.

and if it's not we get to hit you with sticks and stream it for all to see.

[shadyspace]

Nintendo must be sucking some good ass dick.

Maybe Nintendo spent all the DS and Wii money on courting core developers and now they feel comfortable sitting back and just cranking out casual titles?

[Boney]

A new Trauma Center?

pfff bwahahhahah

[Hiro]

A personal acquaintance of mine sent me this list, saying it came from a source close to Nintendo. It's probably fake, but I figured I'd share anyway: --First Party-- ::Launch Games:: Extreme Sports Cafe ("New" IP, Combines 1080 and Wave Race + Other Sports) Pikmin Cafe (Interfaces with Pikmin 3DS) Endless Ocean Cafe Nintendogs Cafe Kennel (Interfaces with Nintendogs + Cats) Mii Explore (New IP, Multiplayer Adventure Game) ::Launch Window:: Kirby's Epic Yarn 2 (Launch Window, Multiplayer) Wario Ware Cafe (Launch - Launch Window?) ::Future Games:: Super Mario Cafe (Late 2012/Early 2013, Paradigm Shift ala SM64) Legend of Paper Zelda (Mid 2012, Paper Mario version of SNES Zelda) Fire Emblem Cafe (Late 2012) Retro Studios IP (Late 2012, New IP) Project Sora IP (New IP) Monolith Soft RPG (New IP) Miyamoto Game (New IP) --Third Party-- ::Launch Games:: Battlefield 3 (Extra Content) Street Fighter X Tekken (Timed Exclusive) SSX Super Monkey Ball Cafe Tony Hawk Cafe Ridge Racer Cafe Mass Effect 3 (Possibly with ME 1 + 2?) InVersion Dragons Dogma Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier Metal Gear Solid: Rising (Extra Content) Silent Hill: Downpour (Extra Content) PES 2013 Cafe (Timed Exclusive) Trauma Center Cafe ::Launch Window:: Modern Warfare 3 Grand Theft Auto V (Launch?, Timed Exclusive) Dead Space Spin Off Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles Cafe Soul Caliber V (Extra Content) ::Future Games:: Sonic Cafe (Sonic Generations?) Platinum Games IP (Bayonetta 2?) Phantasty Star Online 2 (Late 2012?) SEGA Game (???) The Amazing Spider-Man: The Game Rockstar Game (New IP?) BioShock Infinite (Timed Exclusive) Red Steel III Beyond Good & Evil 2 Doom 4 Madden 2013 (Timed Exclusive) Tiger Woods 13 Fight Night Cafe Need for Speed Cafe Level-5 Game (New IP) Kingdom Hearts Cafe (Possibly KH3) Square Enix Game (New IP) Square Enix Game (???) Grasshopper Game (New IP or No More Heroes 3) Valve Game (Possibly a collection set + new game?) Epic Games (New IP, Bulletstorm 2 or New Gears of War Trilogy exclusive to Cafe) Once again, I can't confirm the validity of this information, but I figured it may be worth discussing, on the off chance that it's real.