[royalan]

No, its the assumption that exploration is the most important thing about Zelda games, even though plenty of people would disagree.

Maybe, but Miyamoto definitely wouldn't be one of those people.

The people of Skyloft knew nothing about the land below,but you expect then to be fearful of something that doesn't exist to them ? TP was far worse in this regard.

You're not following me. I never argued that the story didn't make sense. I just argued that the tone of the story doesn't really match the world as it's presented to the player. I never once felt dread playing Skyward Sword. Heck, even the demons seem to be largely at peace, but I'm supposed to believe that this world is in real, imminent danger and that only I can save it? That's not really being communicated through the world.

Maybe the people of Skyloft should have known about the world below and how they came to be in Skyloft, and we could have gotten some interesting story bits and sidequests having to do with them preparing for imminent doom. Definitely would have added to the tension. Maybe we should have seen more big evils doing awful things instead of being contained in their pretty little dungeons. My point is if you're going to have a narrative-heavy game, make the world fit your story. Skyward Sword, by and large, does not accomplish that.

Puzzles require thought(or at least good ones do) difficult games mainly reward reflexes &/or time spent playing the game.

Difficult games also require thought and strategy. The good ones, at least. Games can have both, you know...

[Anth0ny]

Majora's Mask is my favorite game of all time, but its opening is mediocre and tedious on subsequent playthroughs. The whole game takes a while to get going (maybe up to the first dungeon).

Nah bro.

Learn the scarecrow/old lady trick. I can get from entering my name to turning back to human Link in something like 15 minutes.

Then, we get to the swamp. We meet the Twinrova girls, go through the lost woods, meet some monkies, navigate the Deku Palace with awesome music... I have a blast with it.

Compare that to TP. You go to the Twilight Realm and become a wolf. Collect tears. Navigate a forest... with a lamp. Fuck I'm getting bored just thinking about it. The game is tough to replay.

[Hot Coldman]

So, I just read this. And I fucking hated it. I feel like... OK, so there's two types of game called Zelda. There's the open-world stuff of the first two, and then there's everything else. Zelda is the everything else. It's the puzzle solving, it's the lock-and-key stuff. He doesn't like that? Great! I don't care! But don't make out it's broken. It's fun. It's fun the same way Popcap games are fun- simple tasks that use sound and visuals beautifully to engineer a sense of success and reward. It's a facade, sure, but when playing, how often do you actually see through that when playing? For me, rarely, because the series has a way of keeping me hooked. It still manages to make me feel clever, so what's wrong with it?

He wants a game based around survival, about true exploration. Well... tough. Get over it. Zelda is a puzzle game. It's not what you want, it was only what you wanted twice ever and it's not going to be what you want because they found something more fun, more accessible, more interesting. For every one person who wants Zelda 1 to be remade, essentially, there's 50 more people who love it the way it is.

Zelda is flawed in loads of way, but these aren't the reasons. This is pining for something left behind a long time ago, riding on the wave of general boredom with the series in the wake of SS.

[udivision]

He wants a game based around survival, about true exploration. Well... tough. Get over it. Zelda is a puzzle game. It's not what you want, it was only what you wanted twice ever and it's not going to be what you want because they found something more fun, more accessible, more interesting.

O wow... these Zelda fans are worse than Sonic fans when you put it that way. The major difference being modern Zelda is actually good.

[MoogleWizard]

^ This.

Zelda I & II were a one time thing and they're never coming back again. Nintendo obviously decided that that style is not what they want the series to be. If you only like the style of the first two, it's time to move on from Zelda since the last 10 or so games showed that it's not coming back.

[balladofwindfishes]

Removing its claws for the sake of an audience that never really gravitated to the series is only going to alienate the demographic that did. Besides, we veteran gamers weren't always veteran gamers. We had to get into the series at some point, and most of us fell in love with the franchise because it was as challenging adventure. Why do people need their hands held to get into the games now?

I don't think Nintendo is removing the claws, so much that veterans are so used to the claws it's not hard anymore.

I can see a lot of puzzles in Skyward Sword that would be tricky for people who hadn't ever played a Zelda. There's no hint that cracked walls = bomb them. There's also no hint that you can put fairies in bottles to get an extra life. Or that fire enemies that suck in air always means you have to bomb them (a hint not told to you unless you lose to that boss already). I'm not even sure if the game lets you know you kill Deku Scrubs by reflecting their bullets or not, I've never really used Fi on those enemies.

When people say that modern Zelda's are hand holding, they have to remember not everyone went through every single of the original Zeldas, played through OOT and are totally familiar and comfortable with Zelda puzzle tropes.

For example knowing nothing of the items in SS, as soon as I got to the desert and saw the hookshot targets, I know I was getting a hookshot and that this area was probably important later on. To anyone new, those might as well be random decorative shields on the wall or something. Same for the fire area. Fire area = bombs. Getting through the first fire temple wasn't so much "look for the solution" but "look for the bomb based solution" because I just knew the puzzles in the fire area are always bomb based.

For new people to the series, it would be discovery that Link can now hold his own bombs and doesn't need to rely on the plants. And also they wouldn't necessarily know that getting bombs means most of the puzzles in this temple, including the boss, will rely entirely on using bombs properly.

[Hot Coldman]

O wow... these Zelda fans are worse than Sonic fans when you put it that way. The major difference being modern Zelda is actually good.

Haha, well, I certainly wouldn't apply that argument to Sonic games, the Mega Drive games are certainly far more inclusive than modern Sonic games are (single button control vs boost/trick/rail/hoo-ha-craziness, the winner isn't tough to figure out there). That change baffles me. But yeah, I mean, sometimes you've gotta know when the battle is lost, right?

For what it's worth, I'm kinda biased as all but the most simple-minded open world games go over my head (something like Fallout 3 is lost on me, for example), but they made the switch from NES style to LttP style for very obvious and worthwhile reasons.

[balladofwindfishes]

Another thing about the original Zeldas is both gave hints on where to go, but failed horribly because of engrish and the character limits of the NES.

[MoogleWizard]

Another thing about the original Zeldas is both gave hints on where to go, but failed horribly because of engrish and the character limits of the NES.

Reminds me of this.

[balladofwindfishes]

"Dodongo Dislikes Smoke" is basically just a Fi or Navi description that was just short and vague due to software restrictions.

It's still the same ends, but one is more vague and leads you to have to figure it out yourself not because they intended it like that, but because that was pretty much the only way they could fit the hint into that space.

Even jumping from OOT to SS

OOT Octorok description: Bounce back the rocks they spit at you!

SS Octorok: This monster descended from oceanic mollusks. It has developed the unsightly ability to spit rocks. The creature prefers to sleep with tufts of grass on its head, so it has learned to take on the appearance of grass in order to fool and defeat its prey. You can use a shield to bounce the rocks this monster spits back at it.

The latter just gives more backstory, but it isn't any more hand holdy than the former.

[closnyc]

if it aint broken, dont fix it. There is a reason why nintendo games sell millions still. I still play zelda at 27. Everyone is crazy about COD seling 20 million copies, but nobody mentions smash bros, mario kart, or mario galaxy that have sold in the same amounts. Nintendo is non existent to the hardcore poser gamers on deadbox, Which is unfair, cause if we are talking about sales, nintendo destroys everything. Zelda is not broken. Its part of the design and charm that it has. This notion gamers have of being lazy and wanting voice acting and mp everywhere now days is irritating as hell. DA2 proved that voice acting can totally ruin a game. Now games like amalur, da origins, zelda, mario etc suffer the backlash from gamers cause theyre accustomed to the voice acting and not taking in mind that if its a role playing game, you should role play the toon in your head as part of the gaming experience. Instead, you want the game to do it for you. If you want more mature newer stuff, go play something else. I didnt necesasaily love the motion controls on skyward sword, but they werent broken by any means. Every zelda has gotten better IMO, however, no zelda game is better than wind waker imo. That game was jsut absolutely gorgeous and a lot of fun. Majoras mask follows it and then skyward sword. Ocarina was great too. Hell, even one made by capcom, the minish cap was great as well.

[Pyrrhus]

"Dodongo Dislikes Smoke" is basically just a Fi or Navi description that was just short and vague due to software restrictions.

Not really. It's a clue. Dodongo disikes smoke. What do I have that makes smoke? The candle? No, that's not affecting him. Bombs? Doesn't seem to do much. But then you get it in his mouth and he puffs up like cartoon with a pained expression. Jackpot. And you feel kind of clever.

Modern Zelda will outright tell you to throw bombs in his mouth and when it reaches that moment for you to use bombs, will stop everything with a mini-cutscene that zooms up on his mouth and has a bunch of obvious cues that the monster is stunned and has his mouth open. It doesn't take anywhere near the level of cleverness to work out what to do there.

Modern Zelda is still fun, but it's stunted by too many flow-killing cutscenes and info dumps and it greatly underestimates the intelligence and abilities of its audience. It's modern Mickey Mouse compared to the old Mickey from the comics from the 30s and 40s.

[YourMaster]

"Dodongo Dislikes Smoke" is basically just a Fi or Navi description that was just short and vague due to software restrictions.

"Feed Dodongo Bombs" is shorter.

[balladofwindfishes]

Not really. It's a clue. Dodongo disikes smoke. What do I have that makes smoke? The candle? No, that's not affecting him. Bombs? Doesn't seem to do much. But then you get it in his mouth and he puffs up like cartoon with a pained expression. Jackpot. And you feel kind of clever. Modern Zelda will outright tell you to throw bombs in his mouth and when it reaches that moment for you to use bombs, will stop everything with a mini-cutscene that zooms up on his mouth and has a bunch of obvious cues that the monster is stunned and has his mouth open. It doesn't take anywhere near the level of cleverness to work out what to do there. Modern Zelda is still fun, but it's stunted by too many flow-killing cutscenes and info dumps and it greatly underestimates the intelligence and abilities of its audience. It's modern Mickey Mouse compared to the old Mickey from the comics from the 30s and 40s.

But Skyward Sword doesn't tell you that or do that at all

Fi doesn't even tell you to use a bomb unless you've died once already.

The boss would look silly and overly simple if it just opened it's mouth at seemingly random times and you had to throw a bomb in his mouth.

And really, you would only know to throw a bomb in his mouth if
1. You knew you always do this with the boss of the fire temples
2. You experimented, or died once and then scanned the enemy with Fi.


Here's a boss from Link to the Past with a very similar premise. I picked this one because it's a somewhat late-game boss, but note the specific colored heads and then the flashing body after the shell explodes.

[Andrew J.]

Sometimes the explanations and tutorials in Zelda bug me a bit, but I try not to let it get to me. I have been playing Zelda games since I was in preschool, and new players aren't going to be as familiar with the basics as I am.

[FartOfWar]

Absolutely agree. I've said the same thing many times.

You're a buffoon. Lets look at that pasted paragraph again:
"Modern Zeldas do not offer worlds. They offer elaborate contraptions reskinned with a nature theme, a giant nest of interconnected locks. A lock is not only something opened with a silver key. A grapple point is a lock; a hookshot is the key. A cracked rock wall is a lock; a bomb is the key. That wondrous array of items you collect is little more than a building manager’s jangly keyring.
Almost everything in Zelda has a discrete purpose, a tedious teleology. When it all snaps into place, some call this good design. I call it brittle, overdetermined, pale. It’s the work of a singleminded god, a world bled of wonder."
Everything written about locks and keys applies to the first Zelda. "Tedious teleogy" is absurd. God forbid game items serve some purpose. And besides, bombs and every other item serve several purposes and can be combined. If you're only using them to unlock caves, it's you who lacks imagination isn't it?

[MoogleWizard]

Try to remember your first Zelda game, did you know everything you know now? Did you any of the recurring patterns when fighting enemies?
Probably not, I know I didn't when I played my first Zelda when I was a kid. Every game has players that haven't played the series before, they don't know these things, that's why Nintendo always puts help in. I never got any hints like that in Skyward Sword anyway, since they are completely optional and I didn't ask for them.

[Boney]

Reminds me of this.

I'm still not sure where the myth of this being a bad translation originated

did anyone play this game?

[MoogleWizard]

I'm still not sure where the myth of this being a bad translation originated did anyone play this game?

What do you mean? That it's a myth that it's in the game or that it's actually a correct translation? I know it was in the game when I played it.

[CorvoSol]

I'm still not sure where the myth of this being a bad translation originated did anyone play this game?

The real question is: Were they meant to be Error and Bug, or Errol and Bug, or was it really always supposed to be Error and Bagu?

[Boney]

What do you mean? That it's a myth that it's in the game or that it's actually a correct translation? I know it was in the game when I played it.

like the whole point of his introduction is that later in the game, another dude asks you to find Error to get something, so you can go back and you know who he is.

[MoogleWizard]

like the whole point of his introduction is that later in the game, another dude asks you to find Error to get something, so you can go back and you know who he is.

That doesn't mean that his name can't be a bad translation, or is he called Error or the japanese term for "error" in the japanese version?

[wildfire]

Zelda doesn't need saving, it needs an evolution in its world structure and presentation.

That's a third of what the article writer said.

[Postman]

Zelda is always in the top 3 of my favorite games of the generation and is always up for GOTY in the gaming media . Zelda is doing just fine. Haters gonna hate I guess.

[Criminal Upper]

Zelda is always in the top 3 of my favorite games of the generation and is always up for GOTY in the gaming media . Zelda is doing just fine. Haters gonna hate I guess.

Fastest selling Zelda in decades, and 90% average in review scores.

Sinking ship.

Nintendo reboot this franchise, you're clearly doing something wrong.

Save it.

Before it's too late.

Make it like Demon's Souls, which everyone can get into super easily.

[Hasardeur]

I for one wouldn't mind a shift towards a more open-world approach, as far as this is feasibly possible with the Zelda core design. In Skyward Sword, separating the sky from the rest of the game world was a mind-blowing stupid decision. The areas were tiny and incredibly linear, it's like the game laid one paved path ahead of you and prevented you from ever straying too far off the road. It almost felt to me like Zelda got rid of the exploration aspect altogether.

[comedy bomb]

One thing I really enjoyed in SS was the different NPC characters. Every one was unique and deliciously weird.

The fortune teller was the creepiest IMO. I hope all future release have as much attention paid to the NPCs.

[CorvoSol]

Fastest selling Zelda in decades, and 90% average in review scores. Sinking ship. Nintendo reboot this franchise, you're clearly doing something wrong. Save it. Before it's too late. Make it like [semi appropriate analogue], which everyone can get into super easily.

You could also put Mario or Pokemon in here and get the same result.

Also you could swap Dark Souls for Skyrim, at least according to somebody.

[CrAzY FiNgErS]

^ This. Zelda I & II were a one time thing and they're never coming back again. Nintendo obviously decided that that style is not what they want the series to be. If you only like the style of the first two, it's time to move on from Zelda since the last 10 or so games showed that it's not coming back.

Well they don't have to be a one time thing. Don't you think an open world, exploration friendly, little to no story line type Zelda ala LoZ, and AoL could be made again? Nintendo realized something when they created New Super Mario Bros. They left alot of people behind when the series moved to 3D worlds. LoZ and AoL were easy to get into, but difficult at the same time. If that makes sense. The fans didn't seem to mind it. Those games are just as amazing now as they were back then. There was no hand holding. You could go anywhere at any time in LoZ, but surviving it was a different story. The mystery and the openess of it all has been lost in sequels. Maybe New Legend of Zelda will come out and bring back the masses, because I think there is a split fan base out there. That's no good and Nintendo knows it.

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

It really feels like the Zelda games have been stuck in time since OoT. Every game since then feels a bit different, but there's no sense that the series has improved or moved forward.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

That doesn't mean that his name can't be a bad translation, or is he called Error or the japanese term for "error" in the japanese version?

I've seen at least one translator say that the way his name is written in Japanese suggests that it really is Error, not Errol.

[udivision]

It really feels like the Zelda games have been stuck in time since OoT. Every game since then feels a bit different, but there's no sense that the series has improved or moved forward.

I actually agree with that. Zelda has made a lot of lateral moves; different flavors of what's essentially the same dish. That's why everyone has their own favorite.

[Shion]

It really feels like the Zelda games have been stuck in time since OoT. Every game since then feels a bit different, but there's no sense that the series has improved or moved forward.

I think this has less to do with the gameplay and more with the anachronistic presentation. The presentation in Zelda has stuck in the N64 era, everything is presented in a very old fashioned way which, at some point, gives the impression of an old, unevolved, title.

[Myriadis]

Not really. It's a clue. Dodongo disikes smoke. What do I have that makes smoke? The candle? No, that's not affecting him. Bombs? Doesn't seem to do much. But then you get it in his mouth and he puffs up like cartoon with a pained expression. Jackpot. And you feel kind of clever.

"Dodongo dislikes smoke" isn't about the direct way to defeat dodongos (putting two bombs in their mouth), but about the alternative, better way (let a bomb explode right in front of a dodongo. The smoke will stun the dodongo and you can defeat it with one single sword slash. You get 4 bombs everytime for that).

As for what I want from a Zelda game. When I play a 3D entry in the series, I want to take the role of an adventurer/explorer and be lost in a huge, immersive and atmospheric world. Ocarina, Majora's and Wind Waker did a very good job here (for their time). Both Twilight Princess and, especially, Skyward Sword were very disappointing in this regard.

I felt like an adventurer in Twilight Princess, especially when finding more and more caves and some treasure chests that were hidden really well.

[cartman414]

^ This. Zelda I & II were a one time thing and they're never coming back again. Nintendo obviously decided that that style is not what they want the series to be. If you only like the style of the first two, it's time to move on from Zelda since the last 10 or so games showed that it's not coming back.

This is the exact same kind of logic used by the Dragon Age II defense squad against anyone who prefers BioWare's more in-depth earlier fare.

[teeny]

This is the exact same kind of logic used by the Dragon Age II defense squad against anyone who prefers BioWare's more in-depth earlier fare.

Except Dragon Age has had two games in the same generation...

[cartman414]

Except Dragon Age has had two games in the same generation...

I was talking about BioWare, and the people who were defending their sudden about face with DAII.

[udivision]

This is the exact same kind of logic used by the Dragon Age II defense squad against anyone who prefers BioWare's more in-depth earlier fare.

Considering there are only 3 Zelda games (the first two and SS), and that all were released this gen, this is a very apt comparison. Nintendo suddenly changed zelda outta nowhere.

[cartman414]

Considering there are only 3 Zelda games (the first two and SS), and that all were released this gen, this is a very apt comparison. Nintendo suddenly changed zelda outta nowhere.

Not sure who your sarcasm was directed against.

[Log4Girlz]

You should start with 3 hearts in a Zelda game, there should be a Master Quest mode that doesn't allow you to ever exceed 3 hearts.

[udivision]

Not sure who your sarcasm was directed against.

I'm not saying the logic used is different, but it's not a very worthwhile or productive comparison on your part considering one is a 25 year old franchise and the other is, well, a couple of games. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

[balladofwindfishes]

You should start with 3 hearts in a Zelda game, there should be a Master Quest mode that doesn't allow you to ever exceed 3 hearts.

Can't you just self-impose this challenge on yourself? Why do you need the game to do it for you?

[LiquidSwords]

Not surprised that my buddy's piece disturbed so many trolls' bridges...

Many oldschool Zelda fans were disappointed by the relative linearity and ease of LTTP at the time, and I still long for a sequel to Zelda II.

[Log4Girlz]

Can't you just self-impose this challenge on yourself? Why do you need the game to do it for you?

So it can be a mode and you can feel better about yourself. I completed the Master Quest! And brag on the internets.

[Anth0ny]

I'm still not sure where the myth of this being a bad translation originated did anyone play this game?

Seriously. I'm sure 90% of the people who played Zelda II never actually finished it.

SPOILER: You're told to speak to Error later in the game. He opens up a bridge for you that leads to the next palace.

"Dodongo Dislikes Smoke" is basically just a Fi or Navi description that was just short and vague due to software restrictions. It's still the same ends, but one is more vague and leads you to have to figure it out yourself not because they intended it like that, but because that was pretty much the only way they could fit the hint into that space. Even jumping from OOT to SS OOT Octorok description: Bounce back the rocks they spit at you! SS Octorok: This monster descended from oceanic mollusks. It has developed the unsightly ability to spit rocks. The creature prefers to sleep with tufts of grass on its head, so it has learned to take on the appearance of grass in order to fool and defeat its prey. You can use a shield to bounce the rocks this monster spits back at it. The latter just gives more backstory, but it isn't any more hand holdy than the former.

Zelda Wii U Octorok: Octoroks come in several different varieties, the most common being Red Octoroks. These have reddish brown bodies and camouflage specific to their region on their heads; the camouflage is leafy in the Faron region, rocky in the Layranu region, and have no camouflage when appearing in The Sky. Octoroks remain burrowed underground until Link comes near them. If Link comes too close to an Octorok, however, it will retreat into the ground again, where it is invulnerable. Link can deflect their rocks back at them by using a Shield Bash attack when a rock nears his shield; incorrect timing will result in damage being dealt to Link's current shield. It is also possible to deflect the rock with Link's sword with a vertical or horizontal slice, although spin attacks are significantly easier. He can also attack from a distance with arrows or a Skyward Strike.

Interestingly, they bear a striking resemblance to Deku Scrubs from past games, as they hide using camouflage. In fact, when the game was still unreleased, a number of websites misreported Octoroks as being Deku Scrubs. However, if Link attempts to pick up the 'shrub' or 'rock' that an Octorok is hiding under, it will violently spring out of hiding, knocking Link over and briefly revealing its trademark four tentacles.

[Myriadis]

Zelda Wii U Octorok: [...]

I would like a Mass Effect / Assassins Creed-like encyclopedia.

[Holy Order Sol]

Can't you just self-impose this challenge on yourself? Why do you need the game to do it for you?

I've done it before, doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better as a mode. Especially in MM where I can totally see myself completing a heart container by accident.

I've been against full heart containers as a reward for defeating a boss for a while anyway.

I want a Zelda with more mini-games.

Hard to top MM when it comes to that too.

[Log4Girlz]

I want a Zelda with more mini-games.

[KorrZ]

He lost me as soon as he said the problem was with any game that wasn't Zelda 1 or 2. The original Zelda was a great game (I haven't played 2 to comment), but to seemingly dismiss LTTP, Ocarina and any game that comes after them is ridiculous. I want nothing to do with his idea of what the Zelda series should be.

[cartman414]

I'm not saying the logic used is different, but it's not a very worthwhile or productive comparison on your part considering one is a 25 year old franchise and the other is, well, a couple of games. Maybe I misunderstood your point.

You have. I was talking about BioWare's output as a whole. Dragon Age: Origins was a throwback to Baldur's Gate of sorts. So the argument was one of BioWare leaving those old fans in the dust.

But I guess, and no offense, that it's esoteric to anyone unfamiliar with BioWare's early days.