[Anth0ny]

For one thing they could just up and remove the entire minecraft world and the rocket levels. And for another, they could just make the entire game those temple special levels. That'd be rad. And of course, shake to roll was for me almost game ruining in of itself, but honestly if everything else was great it'd be ok. I do think it improved in some areas, of course, it is better than the SNES DKC games, but I never liked those at all (except for the music, which is insanely incredible. Which is the worst part of DKCR, so that is a disappointment). Anyway, DKCR isn't a bad game. I mean, in the realm of platformers it's probably mid tier for me. Retro is so talented they managed to make a DKC game I could stomach all the way through, so you should take that as a positive.

Are you me?

Fuck those minecart and rocket levels straight to hell. Just awful. On the other hand, those temple stages were some of the best 2D platforming stages I've ever played in my life.

I played with waggle for about 10 minutes before I was ready to throw my god damn Wiimote out the window. Classic controller hack helped me get through that game with my sanity in tact.

[timetokill]

Heh. I loved the minecart levels in the same way I love playing Punchout!!
I did love those temple levels too though, great stuff.

I never had a problem with the "waggle" in my entire time playing it, though. Honestly I don't even remember that it was in the game until somebody mentions it.

[amtentori]

Are you me? Fuck those minecart and rocket levels straight to hell. Just awful. On the other hand, those temple stages were some of the best 2D platforming stages I've ever played in my life. I played with waggle for about 10 minutes before I was ready to throw my god damn Wiimote out the window. Classic controller hack helped me get through that game with my sanity in tact.

The main problem with those levels is that they were too unforgiving. Why the hell did they make them 1 hit= death even when you have diddy kong.

THERE WAS NOT POINT TO HAVING DIDDY KONG IN THOSE LEVELS.

making it take at least two hits when you have a partner would have helped A LOT.

[?oe?oe]

Not sure if this is new, but since I didn't see it on the OP, a guy who worked as an Environment Artist and Level Designer for 3D Realms (RAGE) works now for Retro Studios: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/timothy-wilson/4/a7/87

I wanna know whose job is it to stalk LinkedIn profiles.

[Amir0x]

The main problem with those levels is that they were too unforgiving. Why the hell did they make them 1 hit= death even when you have diddy kong. THERE WAS NOT POINT TO HAVING DIDDY KONG IN THOSE LEVELS. making it take at least two hits when you have a partner would have helped A LOT.

Too unforgiving!? Sounds like a game to me :D

Are you me? Fuck those minecart and rocket levels straight to hell. Just awful. On the other hand, those temple stages were some of the best 2D platforming stages I've ever played in my life. I played with waggle for about 10 minutes before I was ready to throw my god damn Wiimote out the window. Classic controller hack helped me get through that game with my sanity in tact.

I want to try the hack so bad. I got through DKCR ok, but I gave up on time running pretty early on because of shake to roll. I'm sure it's possible - let me stop the legions of diehards willing to post youtube videos of their mega super world record ala shake to roll - but it's just inferior and annoying. And I'll not settle for that. No reason to, I have better things to play that don't do such things :P

The temple levels were really engaging. I beat several of them on the first try, so it's possible to actually do it if you apply some concentration, but they're also difficult enough to make such a prospect really tough. They're just the right difficulty for me.

Heh. I loved the minecart levels in the same way I love playing Punchout!!

It's not bad to have one or two bonus levels like this. It's just shitty to have an entire world dedicated so such shitty maps. It's more like memorize the track layout instead of actual pure skill. It's possible to beat on first runs, but the nature of the break aways that are difficult to predict and lowering cave ceilings and shit like that makes it more about replaying to sustain a memory of precisely where things are. It's my most hated design philosophy. I want a platformer, if I wanted something else I would have purchased something else. Rayman Origins had the right idea with its bonus little flight segments. Incidentally, Rayman Origins is about fifty infinity billion times superior to DKCR.

I never had a problem with the "waggle" in my entire time playing it, though. Honestly I don't even remember that it was in the game until somebody mentions it.

If I had a quarter for every time I come on GAF and hear people say that the one thing everyone complains about is not an issue for them, I'd have... a lot of quarters. ;P

Anecdotally, when I had DKCR quite a few people I knew wanted to play it because they had fond memories of the SNES game. Not a single one could stomach shake to roll for more than a single level without complaining vigorously about it. At least two of 'em even gave up over that aspect alone. And for me, I considered it a pretty grave misstep - and I'm superb at platformers, so it's not like I have trouble in these sorts of games. It was the sole control-related misstep. It was inferior to the standard control model, it's not even really a comparison, and because it's such an important move (especially for skill runs), it becomes increasingly an issue. Forget about temple time runs. One can 'adapt' to it, but if you're 'adapting' to it in an uncomfortable fashion, then just let people who aren't addicted to gimmicks have the option to turn it off. Then nobody loses.

[Xun]

i mean whoever is doing the graphics in Zelda HD, it's not too bad. That's about right where it should be. Although I hope just because it's HD they're not tempted to go with that Zelda style again. I would love Wind Waker-esque toon shading next-gen HD visual style. I mean, my dream of true Dark Shading Majora's Mask would be so easy in HD, and with so much potential from an artistic point of view... oh please please :D

It's funny because I've wanted this for years.

Good to see a lot of like-minded individuals.

As for the Retro game I'm still hoping for a Zelda-like action adventure game, especially since there are barely any games like that outside of Zelda.

[disap.ed]

I agree with everything Amir0x said.

I really don't get what they were thinking of when they decided to leave out Classic Controller support (the same with NSMB), the Wiimote is just a really bad, unergonomical controller.

[Empowe]

Loved the minecart and rocket levels. I was surprised when I managed to beat one of the much later rocket levels on my first try. It was the one with all the spinning cogs.

I agree that having a whole world dedicated to them probably wasn't a good idea, and it would have been best to evenly distribute them across other worlds. However, I did enjoy that world myself.

While we're on the subject of art styles, if Retro were to do another DKC, I'd love it if the in-game visuals looked exactly like the concept art they did for Returns. Hand drawn animation would be great.

[walking fiend]

Loved the minecart and rocket levels. I was surprised when I managed to beat one of the much later rocket levels on my first try. It was the one with all the spinning cogs. I agree that having a whole world dedicated to them probably wasn't a good idea, and it would have been best to evenly distribute them across other worlds. However, I did enjoy that world myself. While we're on the subject of art styles, if Retro were to do another DKC, I'd love it if the in-game visuals looked exactly like the concept art they did for Returns. Hand drawn animation would be great.

minecraft levels were excellent, but rocket levels, they were the BEST! So good! It felt like being James Bond!

[Jorok Goldblade]

Since there's a ton of people pushing for Ravenblade, I'm going to be contrarian and say that Retro has revived the Action Adventure project.

[CrunchyFrog]

As much as I'd love to see what they'd do with Starfox (and believe it's likely the next series they'll reboot), methinks Nintendo will give them a shot at their own IP for launch instead of old franchise scraps. The action adventure title seems most likely, and while I definitely don't think it will be Star Tropics, it may be heavily influenced by it. I wanna see what Retro can do when they're able to craft their own mythos

[Skiesofwonder]

I don't know why we are even seriously discussing an Eternal Darkness by Retro Studios. Besides all the heavy hinting from Dyack that Silicon Knights are already creating the sequel, Nintendo would never put one of their most talented developers on a franchise that is destined to sell less than 1 million units worldwide. There isn't even a high demand for the franchise to return. Nintendo would put Retro back on Donkey Kong or Metroid long before even considering them for an Eternal Darkness reboot.

[Ghost_Protocol]

I want another game of Metroid Prime 1's caliber. Nothing less.

[Easy_D]

I don't know why we are even seriously discussing an Eternal Darkness by Retro Studios. Besides all the heavy hinting from Dyack that Silicon Knights are already creating the sequel, Nintendo would never put one of their most talented developers on a franchise that is destined to sell less than 1 million units worldwide. There isn't even a high demand for the franchise to return. Nintendo would put Retro back on Donkey Kong or Metroid long before even considering them for an Eternal Darkness reboot.

"Nintendo would put Retro back on Metroid long before even considering them for a Donkey Kong reboot"

[Dog Pile on the Rabbit]

I hope they're making Donkey Kong Country 5 starring Lanky and Chunky. That or a new IP. Star Fox by them would be pretty cool too though.

[Rehynn]

I hope they're making Donkey Kong Country 5 starring Lanky and Chunky. That or a new IP. Star Fox by them would be pretty cool too though.

At this point I'm pretty sure it's going to be an open-world Star Fox game.

Then again, I'm very sleepy.

[Tookay]

Are you me? Fuck those minecart and rocket levels straight to hell. Just awful. On the other hand, those temple stages were some of the best 2D platforming stages I've ever played in my life. I played with waggle for about 10 minutes before I was ready to throw my god damn Wiimote out the window. Classic controller hack helped me get through that game with my sanity in tact.

Waggle-rolling never bothered me, but I agree with you and Amirox: most of the minecraft and rocket levels were awful. Trial-and-error gameplay isn't good game design. Things need to be telegraphed properly. Those levels made me realize that Retro still has a lot to learn in making an excellent 2D game.

[Alrus]

"Nintendo would put Retro back on Metroid long before even considering them for a Donkey Kong reboot"

Considering DKC was a much much bigger franchise than Metroid, I don't see how that comparison works. And he's probably right, they're not going to put Retro on a project that isn't going to sell.

[Empowe]

I hope they're making Donkey Kong Country 5 starring Lanky and Chunky. That or a new IP. Star Fox by them would be pretty cool too though.

I think the Kongs are best kept to DK, Diddy, Cranky and Funky. I don't think there's any need for the others to pop up again, but then, I never really liked any of the others.

[Myriadis]

Waggle-rolling never bothered me, but I agree with you and Amirox: most of the minecraft and rocket levels were awful. Trial-and-error gameplay isn't good game design. Things need to be telegraphed properly. Those levels made me realize that Retro still has a lot to learn in making an excellent 2D game.

As someone who played DKC the first time last year, I must say that even the orginal DKC Minecart levels had sections that were trial and error.

[Dr.Hadji]

Trail-and-error is such an overblown term. Yes you can solve any linear system through trail-and-error. But just because you can solve it through that method doesn't mean you can't solve it with a more elegant method. DKCR mine cart levels are FILLED with cues. Did most of them on my first or second try.

[Criminal Upper]

If someone actually thought the minecart and rocket levels are too hard, well you were always free to use the super guide feature. Seems like it was made with you in mind.

[Chacranajxy]

I actually just started DKC Returns last night. I'm at like world 5... game doesn't seem all that tough so far... I haven't had a problem with the mine cart or rocket levels :-/

Maybe that'll change?

But I do like the game a lot... even though I know for a fact it'll be even better when I play it on an emulator without waggle someday. The Wii seriously brings nothing but detriments to the table.

Uh, but anyway, I love Retro. They're probably my favorite western developer, honestly, just based on the strength of Metroid Prime games. They just get it -- their games have incredibly satisfying gameplay with some of the best artistry of anyone out there.

[Tookay]

As someone who played DKC the first time last year, I must say that even the orginal DKC Minecart levels had sections that were trial and error.

I didn't like it then either. Those levels had great spectacle, but mediocre, bordering on unfair, gameplay.

If someone actually thought the minecart and rocket levels are too hard, well you were always free to use the super guide feature. Seems like it was made with you in mind.

Oh, the "it wasn't a problem for me, you must be a sucky gamer" argument. I like those.

[Nocturnowl]

A few off moments in 2 rocket barrel stages in particular leap to mind, Crowd Cavern and Hot Rocket but those few moments in them aside, trial and error? not really, Gear Getaway and the very first rocket stage are easily dealt with, all hazards are visible with no hidden tricks like the bat beams and fiery dragon things popping out wherever they feel like.

Minecarts even less so, outside of Roasting Rails which has some very specific jump timing it's not bad at all, the original DKC is far worse for minecart bullshit, DKCR deals with it well by comparison. They should have allowed an extra hit instead of the one hit ko style of these stages but some people overstate the difficulty of these stages.

[ViewtifulJC]

The minecart levels in DKCR are fucking amazing, what the fuck is wrong with your kids?

The rocket levels can eat a dick, though.

[Tookay]

Minecarts even less so, outside of Roasting Rails which has some very specific jump timing it's not bad at all, the original DKC is far worse for minecart bullshit, DKCR deals with it well by comparison. They should have allowed an extra hit instead of the one hit ko style of these stages but some people overstate the difficulty of these stages.

It's the OH-KO part of them that sucks. You have a game that conveys your ability to take several hits on-foot and then throws it overboard the moment the gameplay changes the slightest bit. It punishes you for making a mistake and sends you back to the start or a checkpoint for a minor infraction, instead of just letting you take a hit or two to adjust yourself to the cues.

[IceDoesntHelp]

If its not Metroid, I will be very disappointed.


But I will still buy your game Retro (unless its a Dudebro Bald Space Marine Epic)

[effingvic]

The minecart levels in DKCR are fucking amazing, what the fuck is wrong with your kids? The rocket levels can eat a dick, though.

my sentiments exactly. i barely passed the first rocket barrel level and the others i just let albino DK do it for me

as hard as the mine carts were, those were fun. cant say that about the rocket ones at all, besides the fucking awesome music

[ViewtifulJC]

I think, at best, the rocket levels are so boring. The minecart levels are this relentless spectacle of awesomeness, transitioning from one idea to another with the cart, barrels, vine-grabbing, platforming, etc. The Rocket levels are pretty much always the same, and it's just dull.

Luckily the rest of the game is fucking amazing so it's whatever.

[effingvic]

indeed. so much amazing stuff happening on screen. complete visual orgasm and it kept you on your toes as well

i would suck so much cock for a HD DKCR2 as a wii u launch title. or at least launch window. if any game deserved HD treatment, it was that.

[Nocturnowl]

It's the OH-KO part of them that sucks. You have a game that conveys your ability to take several hits on-foot and then throws it overboard the moment the gameplay changes the slightest bit. It punishes you for making a mistake and sends you back to the start or a checkpoint for a minor infraction, instead of just letting you take a hit or two to adjust yourself to the cues.

It's an odder decision when you consider that the previous 3 DKC games allowed for a second chance during mine cart stages, I wager that a lot of the grief theses stages get would reduce had they allowed this.

I'll accept that the rockets aren't nearly as good as everything else in the game but Gear Getaway, that stage is great, the giant cogs at the end, so good. Then again everything in world 7 aside from Chicken walker boss is pure platforming paradise.

[Chacranajxy]

I'd just like to see Retro have a chance to make a game that hues a little closer to their artwork. Have you guys seen the concept art for Metroid Prime that Mama Robotnick's been posting? Shit is insane. Retro making a darker Metroid game for WiiU would honestly be like... the best thing ever.

But yeah, if Retro's got something on the WiiU at launch, then it looks like I'll be buying a WiiU at launch.

[ViewtifulJC]

i would suck so much cock for a HD DKCR2 as a wii u launch title.

Agreed.

Retro, if you're reading this, I will do WHATEVER SEXUAL FAVOR YOU DESIRE FOR HD DKCR2

I'll do a handjob for Wii DKCR2, too. Fuck it.

[AniHawk]

i just want to see retro do its own thing. make its own game, so they can let it stand on its own merits. metroid prime had to do certain things to stay metroid, and dkcr had to do certain things to stay dkc, but something brand new would be a true test of their talent.

so they're probably just doing a zelda game instead.

[Chacranajxy]

i just want to see retro do its own thing. make its own game, so they can let it stand on its own merits. metroid prime had to do certain things to stay metroid, and dkcr had to do certain things to stay dkc, but something brand new would be a true test of their talent. so they're probably just doing a zelda game instead.

Don't act like the thought of a Retro-developed Zelda didn't make you ejaculate on your own face.

[Tookay]

Don't act like the thought of a Retro-developed Zelda didn't make you ejaculate on your own face.

Not Ani. He's not Retro's biggest fan if my time lurking taught me anything.

[jett]

i just want to see retro do its own thing. make its own game, so they can let it stand on its own merits. metroid prime had to do certain things to stay metroid, and dkcr had to do certain things to stay dkc, but something brand new would be a true test of their talent. so they're probably just doing a zelda game instead.

shush you

Their talent has been more than tested. They made a 2D platformer that's better than Nintendo's own and Metroid games that are better than what the original creator has made post-Super Metroid.

[AniHawk]

shush you Their talent has been more than tested. They made a 2D platformer that's better than Nintendo's own and Metroid games that are better than what the original creator has made post-Super Metroid.

dkcr isn't the worst platformer nintendo's published this gen (epic yarn), but i would not say it's very good (or even good, although parts of it are). as far as metroid prime goes, i stand by my original opinion having replayed the game on hard mode over a year ago. echoes still has a great final area, and corruption is still fun all-around, constant and frequent loading be damned.

what i want to see is the game they want to make. like they have this idea, they think it'll be great, and they're super passionate about it. something that wouldn't need to be compared to a previous entry in a standing series because there would be nothing like it.

monolithsoft was able to do that with xenoblade (xenoname aside). i say give them a chance.

[jett]

dkcr isn't the worst platformer nintendo's published this gen (epic yarn), but i would not say it's very good (or even good, although parts of it are). as far as metroid prime goes, i stand by my original opinion having replayed the game on hard mode over a year ago. echoes still has a great final area, and corruption is still fun all-around, constant and frequent loading be damned. what i want to see is the game they want to make. like they have this idea, they think it'll be great, and they're super passionate about it. something that wouldn't need to be compared to a previous entry in a standing series because there would be nothing like it. monolithsoft was able to do that with xenoblade (xenoname aside). i say give them a chance.

I say have them make whatever they want to, and seems Zelda is what they want. It'll probably be the best thing that has happened to the franchise in over 10 years.

DKCR is fantastic, with what I'd call perfect level design carefully made for speedruns. I really don't understand what your problem is with Retro.

[Instro]

shush you Their talent has been more than tested. They made a 2D platformer that's better than Nintendo's own and Metroid games that are better than what the original creator has made post-Super Metroid.

I dunno, Fusion and Zero Mission are pretty on par with Prime 2 and 3. Although I suppose they are vastly different experiences.

[Chacranajxy]

I dunno, Fusion and Zero Mission are pretty on par with Prime 2 and 3.

No way. I quite liked the GBA games, but they were nowhere near as memorable as Prime 2 or 3. The feeling of exploration just wasn't there in the portable games.

[AniHawk]

I say have them make whatever they want to, and seems Zelda is what they want. It'll probably be the best thing that has happened to the franchise in over 10 years. DKCR is fantastic, with what I'd call perfect level design carefully made for speedruns. I really don't understand what your problem is with Retro.

i didn't like metroid prime, and that was kinda surprising in 2003 and 2004 so i sorta ran with it. but i played it recently based on red scarlet's speed runs, and thought better of it, however i also realized the very specific reasons why i didn't like it. still beat it 100% on hard mode though.

i don't hate retro. i think it's unfortunate that they have to implement ideas that might not be good ones, like the blowing in dkcr, which never did anything simply slamming the ground couldn't do.

dkcr's problems include the mine/rocket world, in which there was an entire world of worthless content, fucking up jumping between having diddy+donkey and donkey alone, the lack of vertical levels, which made the level design seem pretty samey and boring unless they introduced gimmicks (like the blue/red switch stuff they lifted from mario galaxy 2), and definitely more i can't remember since i haven't played it since 2010. the good stuff happens between worlds 5 and 7 at least. it felt like they really felt comfortable with the level design there and the ideas worked better. there was even a vertical level or two in world 6 if i remember correctly.

and nothing i've seen from retro could possibly match twilight princess's level design. that stuff was pretty fantastic.

the minish cap was also really good. that was the now-defunct flagship though.

[jett]

I dunno, Fusion and Zero Mission are pretty on par with Prime 2 and 3. Although I suppose they are vastly different experiences.

Fusion and ZM are fun games in their own right, but the first one went against almost all of everything that the franchise is known for and the second was a poor man's version of Super Metroid with none of the wonder of exploration of either SM or the very original. Then there's Other M which I'll just leave it at that.

[Instro]

Fusion and ZM are fun games in their own right, but the first one went against almost all of everything that the franchise is known for and the second was a poor man's version of Super Metroid with none of the wonder of exploration of either SM or the very original. Then there's Other M which I'll just leave it at that.

I don't really agree with this. Zero Mission explicitly has sequence breaking built into the game to allow the player as much freedom as Super. Also, I would say Prime 3 went against the franchise as much as Fusion did.

[jett]

i didn't like metroid prime, and that was kinda surprising in 2003 and 2004 so i sorta ran with it. but i played it recently based on red scarlet's speed runs, and thought better of it, however i also realized the very specific reasons why i didn't like it. still beat it 100% on hard mode though. i don't hate retro. i think it's unfortunate that they have to implement ideas that might not be good ones, like the blowing in dkcr, which never did anything simply slamming the ground couldn't do. dkcr's problems include the mine/rocket world, in which there was an entire world of worthless content, fucking up jumping between having diddy+donkey and donkey alone, the lack of vertical levels, which made the level design seem pretty samey and boring unless they introduced gimmicks (like the blue/red switch stuff they lifted from mario galaxy 2), and definitely more i can't remember since i haven't played it since 2010. the good stuff happens between worlds 5 and 7 at least. it felt like they really felt comfortable with the level design there and the ideas worked better. there was even a vertical level or two in world 6 if i remember correctly. and nothing i've seen from retro could possibly match twilight princess's level design. that stuff was pretty fantastic. the minish cap was also really good. that was the now-defunct flagship though.

I guess we just have vastly different tastes. For me Metroid Prime is the best game Nintendo has published since God knows when, maybe since OOT. And I disagree with you on DCKR, lack of vertical levels was never an issue, neither the mine world. And the blowing thing while useless is never forced on you so it's not really a problem at all.

Aren't you a big proponent of NSMBwii? How can you complain about samey, horizontal levels in DCKR and then praise that crap?

[DragonSworne]

How the hell is NSMBWii crap???

[jett]

How the hell is NSMBWii crap???

I mean crap as in stuff.

Although personally I'm not very fond of the NSMB games.

[AniHawk]

I guess we just have vastly different tastes. For me Metroid Prime is the best game Nintendo has published since God knows when, maybe since OOT. And I disagree with you on DCKR, lack of vertical levels was never an issue, neither the mine world. And the blowing thing while useless is never forced on you so it's not really a problem at all.

i even have gone back on oot, which was my favorite game for at least eight years, and acknowledge that while the pacing is still excellent and the best of any 3d zelda, the level design and general world of the game does feel small and compact compared to later games in the series.

i wrote up my full thoughts on metroid prime in a novel that i posted in the neogaf review thread if you're really interested, but the short version is that the gamecube controller was something of a hindrance to the level design and despite some sequence breaking, and more interesting level design than i remembered, i felt the backtracking got annoying.

with dkcr, it's not so much the lack of vertical levels was an issue because i didn't have many of those, but it was more that it allowed for less variety in the level design. pretty much all of them were going left to right, or sometimes in the background. and while blowing was thankfully shoved in a corner somewhere, i don't like that retro had to implement it just because miyamoto wanted it there, especially since there was never a good idea that came out of it. this goes back to me hoping their next thing will be something they're passionate about and not about them trying to prove something to japan (which is what the goal of dkcr was).

Aren't you a big proponent of NSMBwii? How can you complain about samey, horizontal levels in DCKR and then praise that crap?

nsmbw had a lot of vertical levels. much of it was based off of walljumping skills and timing, often against rotating blocks. it also had a power up that allowed you to reach higher areas, as well as yoshi to keep you in the air longer. when nsmbw did motion control during platforming, it meant staying in the air longer, a sort of natural reflex of not wanting to fall down a hole. when dkcr does motion control during platforming, you roll forward, and if you want to keep doing this you keep shaking the controller, something that is not so much of a reflex to anything as much as it is something shoehorned into a series that already had a pretty good control scheme.

for the record, i really didn't like nsmb much. it's a bottom-tier nintendo platformer made from 2006-2011, alongside epic yarn and 3d land.

with zelda, or any other existing franchise, i'm worried that they'll be including stuff just because they think it has to be included. i don't want them to have to second-guess themselves. a brand new game would eliminate a lot of that (or at least a lot of that sort of second-guessing).

[Chacranajxy]

It's almost comical how much more intelligent and more informed the debate in this thread is compared to the NSMB2 thread...