[Zekes!]

Ratchet and Clank is a modern day Bubsy

[Canova]

Looks like it's time to school some kiddies. Lay down the law, so to speak. Dark Souls is the single deepest, most challenging, most skill-based game ever created. There is not a single other game in any genre that comes close to the level of skill Dark Souls requires. This is why Dark Souls threads are the best, most intelligent discussions on the internet. Only the smartest, brightest, and most patient people post in them. Essentially, the very best of humanity posts in them. Conversely, the only people who don't like Dark Souls clearly don't have the skills to handle its depth. It is too hardcore for them. That's okay though. Games like Halo exist for people like them. Dark Souls fans are too good to hold grudges.

hahahahaha, this is so beautiful

[KiNeSiS]

I thought similar things myself.

Still the more you put thought into it the more you realize that Zelda at it's best could never touch Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.

[casabolg]

I thought similar things myself. Still the more you put thought into it the more you realize that Zelda at it's best could never touch Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.

Must be the wheel skeletons.

[Emitan]

I thought similar things myself. Still the more you put thought into it the more you realize that Zelda at it's best could never touch Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.

Because they're different kinds of games?

[casabolg]

Because they're different kinds of games?

Clearly that has nothing to do with it.

[bluemax]

I seriously doubt you've played either Souls game. They're not hard. They're not cheap. They don't force you into a grind/T+E gameplay as long as you're patient enough to learn like... all 3 attack animations that enemies have.

I own and played the first one. I managed to beat the first level after a bunch of trial and error, and then I died on the second level that gave me zero information and shelved it. Probably the second worst game I purchased last year.

So, like DMC, it was just too hard for you?

Devil May Cry actually has a well thought out combat system. It requires a lot of manual dexterity but at least its built upon rules that can be learned and mastered.

Devil May Cry 3 is how to do hard properly. Demon's Souls is how to do hard improperly.

"unbalanced", "cheap", "trial and error" Please expand on these three, bluemax!

There's a fucking dragon in the first level that can one shot you!

Its been awhile since I tried to play this shit heap of a game, but I remember there being traps that just kind of come out of nowhere and can kill you. The first level of the game was just ridiculous, if I wasn't springing a trap with no way to know it was there before hand then I was turning a blind corner into an enemy that could one shot me before I even knew he was there. I've finished entire games in the time it took me to make it through the first level of this game!

The game doesn't reward exploration, or curiousity, it punishes it. The controls I remember feeling, bulky, cumbersome and unresponsive.

Honestly this was the least evolved game I've played this side of Skyward Sword.

[vikingvessel]

Looks like it's time to school some kiddies. Lay down the law, so to speak. Dark Souls is the single deepest, most challenging, most skill-based game ever created. There is not a single other game in any genre that comes close to the level of skill Dark Souls requires. This is why Dark Souls threads are the best, most intelligent discussions on the internet. Only the smartest, brightest, and most patient people post in them. Essentially, the very best of humanity posts in them. Conversely, the only people who don't like Dark Souls clearly don't have the skills to handle its depth. It is too hardcore for them. That's okay though. Games like Halo exist for people like them. Dark Souls fans are too good to hold grudges.

You are going to drive some folks wild. Quick, swap out all Dark Souls references for Journey.

[Emitan]

Dark Souls is like Guitar Hero. Timing and pattern learning are everything and you can enchant your axe with lightning.

[Glass Rebel]

Didn't take too long for another thread to get quite stupid.

[mxgt]

Devil May Cry actually has a well thought out combat system. It requires a lot of manual dexterity but at least its built upon rules that can be learned and mastered.

Demon's/Dark Souls combat is all of these things

[casabolg]

I own and played the first one. I managed to beat the first level after a bunch of trial and error, and then I died on the second level that gave me zero information and shelved it. Probably the second worst game I purchased last year.

"I don't like a challenge and figuring out for myself."
-BlueMax

They warn you about plenty come the second level. At best you die to the dragon once while going across the bridge but that's all that should happen. The game has a learning curve and becomes pretty easy once you conquer it.

I'd say Dark Souls does this far better but the fun comes from seeing a situation and conquering it and once you learn the game it comes far more naturally and you don't die learning what's going on. In Dark Souls, from my opinion, it gives a very King's Field feel for me where death is more a good laugh and a lesson learned than a punishment.

[casabolg]

Dark Souls is like Guitar Hero. Timing and pattern learning are everything and you can enchant your axe with lightning.

This guy, I swear.

[bluemax]

"I don't like a challenge and figuring out for myself." -BlueMax They warn you about plenty come the second level. At best you die to the dragon once while going across the bridge but that's all that should happen. The game has a learning curve and becomes pretty easy once you conquer it. I'd say Dark Souls does this far better but the fun comes from seeing a situation and conquering it and once you learn the game it comes far more naturally and you don't die learning what's going on. In Dark Souls, from my opinion, it gives a very King's Field feel for me where death is more a good laugh and a lesson learned than a punishment.

You aspies are reading shit into my posts that I'm not saying at all. Good job!

[mxgt]

You aspies are reading shit into my posts that I'm not saying at all. Good job!

It's like i'm really on 4chan

[KiNeSiS]

Because they're different kinds of games?

Right, At their base I see similarities.
From the perspective of depth however Zelda at it's best would be a kiddie pool.
(simple mechanics that continue throughout. Doesn't really feel like exploration just crappy town to crappy town from awesome dungeon to awesome dungeon)
Dark Soul's at it's worst is still a raging ravine!
(complex fighting styles based on all types of weapons, Specific strategy for every enemy type. True sense of exploration, Sense of dread & relief that no game in any genre can touch.)


I get more horror at times from Soul's games than any survival horror game I have ever played. I never feel fear from any kind of media, what I feel is tension beautiful, sweat tension....

[joelseph]

I really like the series but I had to come back to it after initially shelving it. The difficulty was a turn-off for me at first but after it clicked the series quickly jumped up my all time favorite list. I can understand where BlueMax is coming from but I will say that he is wrong and making a huge mistake not giving the game a second chance. I would also recommend going straight to Dark Souls. I found that game easier to get into.

[Forsaken82]

Agreed 100%. Said this on 8-4 Play -- it's the closest thing to a modern Zelda 1 out there, IMO.

I would say 3D Dot Game heroes takes that award... From clearly has a thing for Zelda :P

[Glass Rebel]

I swear, if Dark Souls isn't at least in my Top 10 ever when it arrives on PC people here will have some explaining to do.

[Mister Zimbu]

I swear, if Dark Souls isn't at least in my Top 10 ever when it arrives on PC people here will have some explaining to do.

You mentioned you do not have a PS3, but do you have a 360? It's on both.

[Glass Rebel]

You mentioned you do not have a PS3, but do you have a 360? It's on both.

Neither, only a Wii that I'm not using much and a PC that is in the process of being replaced/upgraded.

[Haunted]

I would say 3D Dot Game heroes takes that award... From clearly has a thing for Zelda :P

He probably meant modern as in adapted and transported to the current generation, not just the same experience with a graphical reskin.

It's a clear homage to Zelda and that's fine, but this discussion is about something different.

I swear, if Dark Souls isn't at least in my Top 10 ever when it arrives on PC people here will have some explaining to do.

See, that's why I'm usually a debbie downer in Souls threads even though I like the games. Some sensible people have to keep the overly hyperbolic fanbase in check.

[Canova]

I swear, if Dark Souls isn't at least in my Top 10 ever when it arrives on PC people here will have some explaining to do.

Well, thats really up to you. If you can get pass the first level, it will be, if not, you'll hate it for the rest of your life, just like what happened to Bluemax

[See You Next Wednesday]

i think you're thinking of the signs other players leave...most NPCs sell you shit. they don't tell you how to navigate the lost woods or boos weak points as i recall.

WRONG!
Starting NPC tells you about the two bells & about Blightown.
Undead merchant tells you about the Capra boss, dragon & other things about the undead burg.
Andre tells you about the forest, the seal, Sens Fortress & traversing the abyss.
Domhall tells you about New Londo ghosts, skeleton & nercromancers & a whole bunch of other stuff after you buy his ware periodically.
Patches gives you clues about other NPCs & their motives.

Plus more.
It's very similar to Zelda scattered NPCs who only give you clues on what to do & where to go next.

[Togglesworlh]

Now you're the one who seems kind of offended that people could not agree with the OP.

You are free to interpret my post as such, but you'd be wrong to do so. I'm more bothered by the seeming vitriol of some of the people who disagree with him. Your posts never contained any such vitriol, and so I wasn't really talking to you. Then the discussion moved on past that point, and now we're back. Full circle!

I think my posts explain pretty clearly what I think is "wrong" with calling Dark Souls "modern Zelda".

Your posts do indeed explain your opinion.

[Vice]

The Souls games are OK. They're just a bit boring. Not Zelda like at all either, outside of the fact that you're in a world with a sword and shield.

[XANDER CAGE]

You are free to interpret my post as such, but you'd be wrong to do so. I'm more bothered by the seeming vitriol of some of the people who disagree with him. Your posts never contained any such vitriol, and so I wasn't really talking to you. Then the discussion moved on past that point, and now we're back. Full circle! Your posts do indeed explain your opinion.

Fair enough!

[Glass Rebel]

Well, thats really up to you. If you can get pass the first level, it will be, if not, you'll hate it for the rest of your life, just like what happened to Bluemax

I never put down a game because it was too hard, it was either because of bad design or bad controls so...

See, that's why I'm usually a debbie downer in Souls threads even though I like the games. Some sensible people have to keep the overly hyperbolic fanbase in check.

Yeah, things are getting quite out of hand. I remember a past thread when someone went totally crazy and got himself banned over Demon's Souls :lol

[The_Darkest_Red]

See, that's why I'm usually a debbie downer in Souls threads even though I like the games. Some sensible people have to keep the overly hyperbolic fanbase in check.

I think a lot of Souls fans generally love the games just that much. Dark Souls is my favorite game ever, and I say that honestly and with no hyperbole attached. That said I do think that it's smart to go in with managed expectations, as with any game.

[H_Prestige]

I think a lot of Souls fans generally love the games just that much. Dark Souls is my favorite game ever, and I say that honestly and with no hyperbole attached. That said I do think that it's smart to go in with managed expectations, as with any game.

Dark Souls seriously shits on every other ps3/360 game. I mean From utterly embarrassed everyone in the industry. It totally changed my perspective.

[The_Darkest_Red]

Dark Souls seriously shits on every other ps3/360 game. I mean From utterly embarrassed everyone in the industry. It totally changed my perspective.

Hmm... point taken. Well I can still speak for myself, at least. :p

[casabolg]

The Souls games are OK. They're just a bit boring. Not Zelda like at all either, outside of the fact that you're in a world with a sword and shield.

They're similar to old Zelda games but not similar to post-OoT Zelda games.

[mxgt]

Dark Souls seriously shits on every other ps3/360 game.

I'd agree.

Easily the best game I've played on my console this gen.

[casabolg]

Dark Souls seriously shits on every other ps3/360 game. I mean From utterly embarrassed everyone in the industry. It totally changed my perspective.

That's a bit much but yes, it is fantastic and actually doing something new and creative without the devs being pushed around by publishers.

[Vice]

They're similar to old Zelda games but not similar to post-OoT Zelda games.

They aren't very similar to those. ALttP and the NES games relied heavily on items to explore further, puzzles were somewhat frequent, and the combat wasn't very deep.

The similarities in the OP can be found in pretty much any adventure game or RPG from that era and some of them aren't even close to being specific to Zelda such as, "Different and stronger enemies indicate places you should visit later in the game" or "You'll die. A lot."

[casabolg]

They aren't very similar to those. ALttP and the NEs games relied heavily on items to explore further, puzzles were somewhat frequent, and the combat wasn't very deep.

There are differences. I'm just likening my thoughts to the OP. I know he was being general about it all though.
I guess it might be good to just jump off the similarities discussion altogether. The best games to compare to the Souls games are the original From Soft first person dungeon crawlers.

How about we shift the discussion to From Soft games?

[90sRobots]

Like the clueless OP, I haven't played Dark Souls. However, I'm not going to evaluate something I haven't experienced. That said, is this game like Demon Souls where you can play for 30 hours and accomplish nothing due to the crazy difficulty?

Because that's nothing like LOZ.

[casabolg]

That said, is this game like Demon Souls where you can play for 30 hours and accomplish nothing due to the crazy difficulty?

No.

[jimi_dini]

There's a fucking dragon in the first level that can one shot you!

You sound like someone that started up Demon's Souls, got through half of 1-1, then spotted the knight with red eyes and thought it was a great idea to run up and slash him.

Yes, there was no codec call that said: "Snake, Octacon here. What you are seeing is a level 100 knight, you can't beat him yet, better skip him till later" - but it's kinda obvious.

Like the dragon in the first part of Dark Souls. IF you looked closer, you would have seen burned corpses and burn marks ON the bridge. But you didn't look. You also didn't think about your actions. You rushed. You died. Your fault.

Its been awhile since I tried to play this shit heap of a game, but I remember there being traps that just kind of come out of nowhere and can kill you. The first level of the game was just ridiculous, if I wasn't springing a trap with no way to know it was there before hand then I was turning a blind corner into an enemy that could one shot me before I even knew he was there.

No. You had no patience to look. You died. Your fault.

In fact in the first part I can't even remember one single trap at all besides a huge knight that just screams "you can't beat me". The real traps come later, but they are all spotable. You just shouldn't rush at all. The step-plate traps make a sound. And in that case you could just dodge roll. Also they are pretty obvious to spot, IF you take a look. And the game even makes it quite easy to spot the first one right at the start. The game doesn't hold your hand, which is good. Too much handholding in all those games.

The game doesn't reward exploration, or curiousity, it punishes it.

Wahahaha
The hidden paths in crystal cave, the great hollow and many other hidden places say you are wrong. Great Hollow for example is really hidden and some players won't even know that it's there. And it's full of treasures. You get rewarded many many nice things for finding those places. The game punishes rushing + acting brainless, that's all.

Still after playing through Dark Souls ONCE, most of the players are able to rush through it afterwards on NG+. I did. And it felt great.

The controls ... unresponsive.

I can't think of even ONE game that has controls being as perfect as in Demon's/Dark Souls. Calling them unresponsive is just ... wrong. I guess what you are calling unresponsive is using some heavy armor. Of course you won't be able to roll as fast as before anymore. Because well you used really heavy armor and your level is too low. Kinda obvious, don't you think?

[Canova]

Dark Souls seriously shits on every other ps3/360 game....not named Demons Souls...... I mean From utterly embarrassed everyone in the industry. It totally changed my perspective.

Fixed that for you

[mantidor]

So what are the chances that if Zelda goes back to this very early design, people will call it a Dark Souls rip-off?

Yeah no chance... that Zelda is going back to being that "unfriendly", which is a shame.

[Lathentar]

I can't think of even ONE game that has perfect controls like Demon's/Dark Souls. Calling them unresponsive is just ... wrong.

Might want to pull back on the hyperbole a bit. I found Dark Souls to have more refined controls over Demon Souls, even if it was just animation changes. However, to call them perfect is laughable. There were many times in my playthrough of Dark Souls where commands would be buffered and end up executing nearly a second after I initially pressed the button. While 98% of the time it was fine, in a game like Dark Souls that 2% ended up causing numerous deaths.

If the controls were perfect, the patches wouldn't have "Fixed control issue" bug fixes in them.

[casabolg]

You sound like someone that started up Demon's Souls, got through half of 1-1, then spotted the knight with red eyes and thought it was a great idea to run up and slash him. Yes, there was no codec call that said: "Snake, Octacon here. What you are seeing is a level 100 knight, you can't beat him yet, better skip him till later" - but it's kinda obvious. Like the dragon in the first part of Dark Souls. IF you looked closer, you would have seen burned corpses and burn marks ON the bridge. But you didn't look. You also didn't think about your actions. You rushed. You died. Your fault. No. You had no patience to look. You died. Your fault.

The two instances of "we're going to screw you over" are the dragon and the rolling boulder in 1-1. The dragon is a quick loss that you learn and, hopefully, have a laugh off of (not like you're far away from the checkpoint there) and never get hit by it again because it's terribly predictable. The boulder you can avoid if you're watching out but it still makes you panic.
They're learning experiences.

Dark Souls does the same thing with the dragon on the bridge. You have no clear idea the dragon is coming and can get one-shotted terribly easy but that's a one time thing again. There is no truly surprise deaths besides that in the whole game. It's there to lower your ego after beating your first boss.

And yes, the unresponsive controls he mentioned was probably just him with heavy armor and didn't know better.

[jimi_dini]

If the controls were perfect, the patches wouldn't have "Fixed control issue" bug fixes in them.

"The patches have fixed"
Yes, exactly. Are we talking here about fresh release Dark Souls or current Dark Souls?

[Glass Rebel]

Reading the above conversations it seems that people who don't like DS do so because of the expectations set by modern game design while From actually tried to build a menacing environment that doesn't follow game logic but how you'd expect a real dungeon to be i.e. having NPCs that you actually can't beat (yet)... which sounds fucking awesome.

I have to freeze myself Cartman style for Dark Souls PC.

[casabolg]

Reading the above conversations it seems that people who don't like DS do so because of the expectations set by modern game design while From actually tried to build a menacing environment that doesn't follow game logic but how you'd expect a real dungeon to be i.e. having NPCs that you actually can't beat (yet)... which sounds fucking awesome. I have to freeze myself Cartman style for Dark Souls PC.

It's just basic metroidvania design.
"This area looks tough, lets not go this way".

Honestly the true difficulty comes from the learning curve. The rest is not too bad if you learn what you can do and play defensively. It's just a lot of fun.
Any experienced people I talk to about Dark Souls/Demon's Souls vouch for me that it isn't a hard game.

[Tex117]

Sure, there are some similarities, but to say "Dark Souls is a modern Zelda" and that is it is a bit of an overstatement.

IMO, Dark Souls (and the Souls games in general), is a game that old school developers would have created in 1988-1992 if they had the tech (read, before the whole "casual" thing). In other words, alot of those classic game designs are used in the Souls games.

The Souls games share alot in common with Zelda, Castlevania (big time), Metroid, Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Ultima (most criminally underrated series of all time).

For me personally, the Souls series are my favorite games to come out in the past decade...and honestly...maybe even longer.

[Canova]

I never put down a game because it was too hard, it was either because of bad design or bad controls so...

As Vergil says: Dont get too cocky....

You have never seen anything like it this generation or even in the previous generation

[Rez]

Dark Souls is easily in my top ten. Easily.

[Nibel]

Looks like it's time to school some kiddies. Lay down the law, so to speak. Dark Souls is the single deepest, most challenging, most skill-based game ever created. There is not a single other game in any genre that comes close to the level of skill Dark Souls requires. This is why Dark Souls threads are the best, most intelligent discussions on the internet. Only the smartest, brightest, and most patient people post in them. Essentially, the very best of humanity posts in them. Conversely, the only people who don't like Dark Souls clearly don't have the skills to handle its depth. It is too hardcore for them. That's okay though. Games like Halo exist for people like them. Dark Souls fans are too good to hold grudges.

Man.. This post is so fucking boss. I can't explain why :lol

Good job!