[Seanspeed]

I was really hoping for Barca to make it through. Its a fantastic acheivement for Chelsea to beat them like they did, but I dont think they'll pull off another miracle against Bayern or Real. Tomorrow will pretty much be the decider. Should be a fantastic game, though.

[Kylehimself]

This debate isn't about the performance but rather the approach, and so in that regard the inept display by Barcelona is as relevant to this point as the courageous showing by Chelsea - in other words, very little. The only reason these metrics of ball possession and shots are meaningful in this context is that illustrate the intent of both sides; one wanted to score, the other wanted to defend. Rather than a contest for the ball, Chelsea turned it into a contest of territory to give themselves an inherent advantage when it came to defending. If every match was carried out like this, then I wouldn't have become a fan of this sport and I'd imagine many would share that sentiment.

It's tactics. Teams aren't going to go out and do that every game as you well know. Why would Chelsea go to Barcelona and try and take them head on when we know we can't? We could contest for the ball, but that would leave spaces in our defence that Barcelona would easily exploit. So we do what we can to win, not because it's easy to stick 11 or in this case 10 men behind the ball and soak up pressure (which it's not), but because it's all we could do to match them, and it worked.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say one wanted to score and the other wanted to defend. Of course Chelsea wanted to score, and did, we just wanted to do it in a way that was safe. So we aren't going to turn out and try and make 700 passes back and forward because it wont work.

I was really hoping for Barca to make it through. Its a fantastic acheivement for Chelsea to beat them like they did, but I dont think they'll pull off another miracle against Bayern or Real. Tomorrow will pretty much be the decider. Should be a fantastic game, though.

I don't know, whoever we get will be a tough game. But I've said since before the Barcelona games, if we could beat them then we can win it. Beating them at home and drawing 2-2 at the the Nou Camp can't all be luck. We had a plan and it worked.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

Chelsea wanted to score. They scored more goals than Barcelona in the tie... Another interesting perspective:

I agree wholeheartedly with the second quote, it is a known criticism of this Barca side. Your first point is a load of garbage, however.

[odd_morsel]

This debate isn't about the performance but rather the approach, and so in that regard the inept display by Barcelona is as relevant to this point as the courageous showing by Chelsea - in other words, very little. The only reason these metrics of ball possession and shots are meaningful in this context is that illustrate the intent of both sides; one wanted to score, the other wanted to defend. Rather than a contest for the ball, Chelsea turned it into a contest of territory to give themselves an inherent advantage when it came to defending. If every match was carried out like this, then I wouldn't have become a fan of this sport and I'd imagine many would share that sentiment.

You cannot reward intent, only results. This sport doesn't have a judge, like MMA, where if there isn't a knockout or submission, thus ending the match early, the judges will award points for dominant positions and attempts to finish the fight.

Dibbz, I'm with you on DmC. I've always had faith in Ninja Theory, and I think it'll be great. OG Dante is an awful, awful character design - it could really only go up from there. Amirox's posts were awful but I never knew he was poor with his mod powers too. I've always thought the Gaf mods were pretty good at their jobs.

[Greyface]

Chelsea wanted to score. They scored more goals than Barcelona in the tie... Another interesting perspective: Aiming to maintain 70-80% possession is just as “anti-football” as parking the bus. When carried to an extreme(like Barca have) it negates the competitive spirit of the sport. This is the exact reason why basketball has a shot clock. I agree wholeheartedly with the second quote, it is a known criticism of this Barca side. Your first point is a load of garbage, however.

You know that counterattacking is done with the intent to score right? Chelsea got three goals from counterattacking in this tie. They weren't gifted own goals or penalties or some nonsense. There was every intent to get up the pitch in the limited opportunities they had to do so.

It's not just Barca by the way. One of the worst examples of this tika boring style was Spain at the World Cup against 10 man Chile and monopolizing possession in the boring areas of the pitch because they were through.

[Regulus Tera]

Fucking crazy, man.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

You know that counterattacking is done with the intent to score right? Chelsea got three goals from counterattacking in this tie. They weren't gifted own goals or penalties or some nonsense. There was every intent to get up the pitch in the limited opportunities they had to do so.

When you concede three quarters of the pitch, almost all possession and then play 8 or 9 players behind the ball lined up outside your penalty box then it's pretty clear scoring yourselves is at the bottom of your priorities.

It's not just Barca by the way. One of the worst examples of this tika boring style was Spain at the World Cup against 10 man Chile and monopolizing possession in the boring areas of the pitch because they were through.

It's pathetic.

[Kylehimself]

When you concede three quarters of the pitch, almost all possession and then play 8 or 9 players behind the ball lined up outside your penalty box then it's pretty clear scoring yourselves is at the bottom of your priorities.

It's either concede three quarters of the pitch and possession or try and make a spectacle and concede five goals. We played to our strengths and over two legs beat the worlds best.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

My motivation for criticising these tactics is that were they to prove successful, then more coaches would adopt them. If, however, they proved unsuccessful and you saw teams beating Barcelona by attacking them, by keeping the ball, you would see youth coaches put more emphasis on these traits resulting in more teams playing 'total' football. It's not idealism to believe you can beat Barcelona by trying to play them at their own game. It can be achieved in time if the coaches want to replicate it and not purely suffocate it. I don't know about anyone here, but I want to see more Barcelona-like teams

[SuperSonic1305]

Anyone else find it creepy that Messi looks like a guy in his 30's and yet he is 24?

[pulga]

My motivation for criticising these tactics is that were they to prove successful, then more coaches would adopt them. If, however, they proved unsuccessful and you saw teams beating Barcelona by attacking them, by keeping the ball, you would see youth coaches put more emphasis on these traits resulting in more teams playing 'total' football. It's not idealism to believe you can beat Barcelona by trying to play them at their own game. It can be achieved in time if the coaches want to replicate it and not purely suffocate it

No team is gonna wait however many years it takes to emulate and be better then Barcelona at their own style. Plus, Barcelona got lucky they got Messi as a kid. Just look at Arsenal and how successful they've been playing ala Barcelona.

[Regulus Tera]

http://sportwitness.ning.com/forum/t...ar-and-unworth http://i.imgur.com/PoK9q.gif

Like fighting game fans calling people scrubs.

[Awesome Animals]

My motivation for criticising these tactics is that were they to prove successful, then more coaches would adopt them. If, however, they proved unsuccessful and you saw teams beating Barcelona by attacking them, by keeping the ball, you would see youth coaches put more emphasis on these traits resulting in more teams playing 'total' football. It's not idealism to believe you can beat Barcelona by trying to play them at their own game. It can be achieved in time if the coaches want to replicate it and not purely suffocate it. I don't know about anyone here, but I want to see more Barcelona-like teams

So everyone should all.ay the same way essentially stopping any evolution of the game? Maybe Rock paper scissors should only allow players to play rock since that should win every time. rock vs rock. Bigger fist wins!

[Seanspeed]

I don't know, whoever we get will be a tough game. But I've said since before the Barcelona games, if we could beat them then we can win it. Beating them at home and drawing 2-2 at the the Nou Camp can't all be luck. We had a plan and it worked.

Its possible, for sure. And I wont say it was luck, no way. Just like in game 1, they had less opportunities than Barca but they made better use of them. They also had the great advantage of being able to shut down set pieces and corners with their height and strength advantage.

But I do think it was largely a case of Barcelona, and Messi in particular, underperforming, instead of Chelsea being particularly brilliant. I mean, the two goal scorers for the blues were kind of crap most of the time they were on the pitch. I dont think anybody for a second actually believes Torres is in anyway back on-form after having to overcoming a simple striker vs goalie challenge. Basically, they cant rely on having the same sort of game against Munich or Madrid.

It'll be a hell of a story if they can pull it off, though.

[Greyface]

When you concede three quarters of the pitch, almost all possession and then play 8 or 9 players behind the ball lined up outside your penalty box then it's pretty clear scoring yourselves is at the bottom of your priorities.

Yes but scoring is still on the list of priorities. Inter at the Nou Camp in '10 and Chelsea at the Nou Camp in '09 were much more defensive teams than this Chelsea '12 performance imo.

p.s.
Also worth quoting this from Cox that I wholeheartedly agree with:

When two sides have completely different approaches yet contest a close match, it makes for a brilliant spectacle.

This was one of the best matches I've ever seen. Perhaps you watch Barca all the time so you've never actually seen what a dead rubber with both sides playing towards a boring 0-0 draw looks like? As long as one side is playing to win, I don't actually care if the other is parking the bus and has little or even no intent on scoring. It's fascinating watching a good side trying to figure out the puzzle of a locked up defense. It's a shame though that Barca has one only key in their repertoire.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

So everyone should all.ay the same way essentially stopping any evolution of the game? Maybe Rock paper scissors should only allow players to play rock since that should win every time. rock vs rock. Bigger fist wins!

On the contrary, it would be the opposite. Barcelona v Chelsea/Inter Milan, where it is attack against defence, would be the same display every time. I doubt those two sides could offer as much evolution of the sport by defending with 8 men behind the ball. On the other hand, teams that play with flair and skill are the antithesis of repetitiveness and predictability. The only thing that is the same is the approach of entertaining the crowd. I'm not saying I want teams that play identical to Barcelona, but rather ones that adopt their philosophy of possession retention, flair and close ball control etc.

[MaritalWheat]

My motivation for criticising these tactics is that were they to prove successful, then more coaches would adopt them. If, however, they proved unsuccessful and you saw teams beating Barcelona by attacking them, by keeping the ball, you would see youth coaches put more emphasis on these traits resulting in more teams playing 'total' football. It's not idealism to believe you can beat Barcelona by trying to play them at their own game. It can be achieved in time if the coaches want to replicate it and not purely suffocate it. I don't know about anyone here, but I want to see more Barcelona-like teams

Putting together a team that does what Barcelona does takes years of proper infrastructure at a club and especially youth level...plus a lot of luck, you're not going to always have the key ingredient of Messi, for example (and look at today to see where the ideal 'total football' can lead without that key that usually unlocks the doors to goals). Looking at Barca's success now, I'm sure a lot of clubs are looking to emulate...but you won't see that for another generation of players at least, because you can't really instill that kind of play in a team you just put together through money with players coming and going continuously. You need a core that plays that way. It's not like Chelsea didn't want to keep the ball today...it's that they literally couldn't under Barca pressure. It's not the football that team was built up to play, and you can't just force them to play that way in a season (look at AVB).
Until then though...well, teams have to adapt to the short term, and atm that's playing on the counter.

[Regulus Tera]

I vehemently disagree. The irony of the argument is it's proponents suggest that football is too obsessed with the singular metric of putting the ball in the net, but allocating points for retaining the ball, or successfully passing the ball is as similarly linear. If we're going to distill football into this pseudo sport where tonight Barcelona would've won, despite the fact that they were tactically inept, unable to offer a plan B, and at one point allowed an attacker to run free from his own half to score a goal, then I'm out. In my opinion Chelsea were the better team tonight. They executed their gameplan to a greater degree than Barca, who were once again out of ideas. And people seem to indicate that this 'deep defending' is easy, which is frankly, bullshit. Just ask Real Madrid, who've been trying to outmuscle and soak up Barcelona for years to little success. This week has shown that Barcelona aren't invincible; by the points suggested in that post, they would be. And that's not a sport.

We should stop using goals for measuring success in football and instead give the referees the jurisdiction to gauge how "well" the teams perform through a variety of standards, like in Olympic gymnastics. That would be fairer and more attractive for the fans.

[Awesome Animals]

On the contrary, it would be the opposite. Barcelona v Chelsea/Inter Milan, where it is attack against defence, would be the same display every time. I doubt those two sides could offer as much evolution of the sport by defending with 8 men behind the ball. On the other hand, teams that play with flair and skill are the antithesis of repetitiveness and predictability. The only thing that is the same is the approach of entertaining the crowd. I'm not saying I want teams that play identical to Barcelona, but rather ones that adopt their philosophy of possession retention, flair and close ball control etc.

No. Chelsea chose rock because Barca was playing scissors and rock bears scissors. Chelsea doesn't pick rock every time, only against teams who will go scissors.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

Heard Geoff Shreeves went into the Barcelona dressing room informing each player they won't be playing in the CL final

[Greyface]

On the contrary, it would be the opposite. Barcelona v Chelsea/Inter Milan, where it is attack against defence, would be the same display every time. I doubt those two sides could offer as much evolution of the sport by defending with 8 men behind the ball. On the other hand, teams that play with flair and skill are the antithesis of repetitiveness and predictability. The only thing that is the same is the approach of entertaining the crowd. I'm not saying I want teams that play identical to Barcelona, but rather ones that adopt their philosophy of possession retention, flair and close ball control etc.

Did we watch the same game?! Was Barca not the epitome of "repetitiveness and predictability"? We had four goals in the match and the most sublime was scored by Chelsea. When you have one approved style, one true way, then there is little evolution. Whenever there is a variation of styles, a predator and a prey, there is much more evolution.

[Jason Raize '75 - '04]

Did we watch the same game?! Was Barca not the epitome of "repetitiveness and predictability"? We had four goals in the match and the most sublime was scored by Chelsea. When you have one approved style, one true way, then there is little evolution. Whenever there is a variation of styles, a predator and a prey, there is much more evolution.

We are clearly not understanding each other here. Can't be bothered to carry this on, no offence.

[Awesome Animals]

Also. Playing possession football at the detriment to your team because you can't compete with the other team playing total football is as silly as you can get.

[Greyface]

We are clearly not understanding each other here. Can't be bothered to carry this on, no offence.

Ronaldo is going to convince him to go to Real Madrid :?

Edit: *sigh* not getting much acceptance on Gaf lately.

[rodvik]

We are clearly not understanding each other here. Can't be bothered to carry this on, no offence.

Pity, I thought it was interesting. Along similar lines I was thinking this weke how much I missed the old Serie A. Some great sweeper formations back then, which looked defensive but were actually very exciting stuff imho.

[WoodenLung]

No. Chelsea chose rock because Barca was playing scissors and rock bears scissors. Chelsea doesn't pick rock every time, only against teams who will go scissors.

what if we both scissor? i like that

[Regulus Tera]

what if we both scissor? i like that

Play to win, not to perform. It's a competition, not an exhibition match.

[Schweini]

Damn Ronaldo, stop eating so much :P

[Regulus Tera]

Damn Ronaldo, stop eating so much :P

He has hypothyroidism. It's not solely a question of eating too much.

[WoodenLung]

Play to win, not to perform. It's a competition, not an exhibition match.

i thought we were talking about sex positions :(

was confused what "the rock" was. but i had some good ideas

[Regulus Tera]

i thought we were talking about sex positions :(

WoodenLung
Member
(Today, 11:03 PM)
Quote

[Awesome Animals]

i thought we were talking about sex positions :( was confused what "the rock" was. but i had some good ideas

Who said we weren't. I'd explain what rock is but I don't want to get banned :(

[Schweini]

i thought we were talking about sex positions :(

Damn, dude, take your mind out of Ivanovic's ass.

[DangerousMali]

Chelsea apparently had 4 shots on target over the 2 legs. And scored 3 goals.

Posession football

[Lightning]

Chelsea apparently had 4 shots on target over the 2 legs. And scored 3 goals. Posession football

Pointing to the fact that it's not about how many chances you have but what you do with the chances you get.

Chelsea deserved their win. Enjoy the moment for hopefully their luck will run out in the final.

[Sloosha]

Chelsea apparently had 4 shots on target over the 2 legs. And scored 3 goals. Posession football

It's funny because being clinical is not something I would associate with Chelsea this season. Also, I've always thought that if Ramires could show some composure in front of goal he would be a great player, as he creates so many chances for himself; today he scored a brilliant goal.

[MPW]

We are clearly not understanding each other here. Can't be bothered to carry this on, no offence.

RVP: should i join barca?

R9: yes, if you like warming the bench

[Lightning]

Bayern knocking Real Madrid out in the last semi will be funny now. Everyone expecting a Clasico final but no Spanish teams make it. That'll make me chuckle.

[sneaky77]

congrats to chelsea, I hate the way they played it, but it worked. To me the sad thing is watching a team that spent so much money building a team play like they are trying to avoid relegation but whatever works

[neoanarch]

Hoofball > Tiki-taka

I think todays result proves it once and for all.

[madmackem]

I dont get people going on about how chelski played, there are two aspects to the game of football defence and attack. A good defencesive display is just as impressive as a good offence one. Chelski wouldve been cut to bits had they went on the attack against the worlds best attacking side. It was good tactics a good gameplan that barca couldnt deal with, lets not forget chelski scored more goals than them and had ten men for most of the second leg of this game.

Those moaning about it are either new to football or just bitter in some way, i dont like chelski id have no feeling either way who won last night infact i think a real barca final wouldve been better to watch. As in other sports its a team game and having a good defence is just as critical as having a good offence see the nfl.

[Shining Sunshine]

I watched the spanish tv version. Never heard of a more unexcited commentator on Ramires's goal than what I just heard.

[Blablurn]

LESS THAN 14 HOURS!!!

[Salazar]

see the nfl.

Or see United dropping an Arsenal-sized defensive bollock in that second half against Everton.

[pslayer666]

I dont get people going on about how chelski played, there are two aspects to the game of football defence and attack. A good defencesive display is just as impressive as a good offence one. Chelski wouldve been cut to bits had they went on the attack against the worlds best attacking side. It was good tactics a good gameplan that barca couldnt deal with, lets not forget chelski scored more goals than them and had ten men for most of the second leg of this game. Those moaning about it are either new to football or just bitter in some way, i dont like chelski id have no feeling either way who won last night infact i think a real barca final wouldve been better to watch. As in other sports its a team game and having a good defence is just as critical as having a good offence see the nfl.

I totally agree with you.

Chelsea played well, they obviously studied their opponents, got a bit lucky too (Barca hitting the post twice) and they went through because they were clinical at the couple of chances they got.

Good for them, as much as I dislike them, they did great.

I'm glad Terry won't be playing the final though, he really doesn't deserve it. He's a major douche.:-P

For the the independent observer, last night's game was a great game to watch.

[neoanarch]

Terry is such a massive douche. I saw the interview he did after the match.

"I'm not that type of player"
"I can see how it can be interpreted as a red"


How delusional do you have to be.

[yellow submarine]

As they say in the NHL/NBA --

"Defense wins Championships"

[rodvik]

I think what is amazing is how Chelsea - Real then Chelsea again simply surrendered the width and Barcelona didnt know what to do with it. Several times Barcelona was given just perfect long cross opportunities and they refused to take them, just short pass it back to center to try and unlock the front door again.

I am surprised Pep didnt come up with a counter.

[MPW]

As they say in the NHL/NBA -- "Defense wins Championships"

barca won 3 cl trophies and many la liga trophies without being amazing in defense

messi scores the pk and gaf would be praising barca and playing the way they do etc

[elsk]

As they say in the NHL/NBA -- "Defense wins Championships"

“Strikers win you games, but defenders win you championships” (John Gregory)