[OnPoint]

I think the hot topic of Retro Revolution is MM9/10. That is usually where the conflicts arise.

OK. Gotcha.

I guess it all depends on what you consider important in terms of game design. I feel like the actual "art" of Mega Man 9 and 10 isn't found in the graphics, but in the level design. Inticreates was given the job of putting levels together that would fit into a specific time-period for the series; a round peg for a round hole. And they succeeded.

If they gave these games the graphics of Mega Man Zero, or Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA even), or The Little Mermaid, it would still be a good game so long as the actual gameplay was good.

That being said, these are by definition 'retro revivals.' Therefore, the artstyle is equally important to the mission. The games should not only play the part, they should look it as well. If they grabbed a kid who has never played Mega Man before, made him play the first 6 titles, then put MM9 on a cart and threw it into an NES, he wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Anyone who complains about the idea of a retro entry in a series not being modern enough completely misses the point. You want innovation, or new and different ideas? Go play the Mega Man ZX series, or any of the Mega Man titles after MM6. Nobody says you have to like it, but changing the artstyle or gameplay mechanics won't make it better; it would make it a different product altogether.

I just don't get why it's an issue. I feel attacking the game for being what it is as silly as someone saying Madden should play more like FIFA.

[Tain]

Go play your shooters and dumbed down games then.

All the recent games that strive to look old are complicated, challenging masterpieces?

i mean did you play retro game challenge

[ShockingAlberto]

Mega Man is kind of a sticky wicket. There's an argument to be made that changing the artstyle from that 8-bit world actively changes the mechanics of the game. Mega Man 7 and 8 feel different. They don't feel as precise or pin-point as the NES games or MM9.

There is a certain degree of preying upon your nostalgia with MM9 and 10, but to say it has no benefit isn't universally true.

[riskVSreward]

I was at Funspot all day yesterday, old games are awesome and I support new old games fully. OP doesnt know what he's talking about.

[scitek]

think you need to learn the difference between a revolution and a revival mang

[Jay Sosa]

[Tain]

Mega Man is kind of a sticky wicket. There's an argument to be made that changing the artstyle from that 8-bit world actively changes the mechanics of the game. Mega Man 7 and 8 feel different. They don't feel as precise or pin-point as the NES games or MM9. There is a certain degree of preying upon your nostalgia with MM9 and 10, but to say it has no benefit isn't universally true.

The player to screen size ratios played a part in that. Ideally, MM10 would just double the resolution of everything and have awesome art, but that's definitely a "would be nice" situation and not a demand.

[sn00zer]

Just to add a few more comments to the mix
-"Go back to your generic shooters"- Most of the AAA now are not "Generic shooters" Mirrors Edge, Dead Space, Uncharted, Infamous, BlazBlu, Bioshock, Batman, Assassins Creed, Mass Effect, Dragon Age we've been out of "generic AAA shooters and space marines" for a while

-I like old games, I dont like games that pretend to be old games

-2d games are awesome, but I would rather have a new arksystem or vanillaware game than a game that could have been done on a Sega (New artstyle HD 2d Megaman would have been great instead of throwback art)

-@ the comment about technology versus artistic limitations circa 1982....Considering some of the greatest visually designed games have come out since 2000 (Ico, Okami, Katamari, Killer 7) i believe that maybe the artistic immaturity was true in 1982, but it is no longer an issue (in 1982 games were developed primarily by computer scientists, but now that much of the work is done by computer scientists and artists "artistic immaturity" is no longer an issue.

[andymcc]

I just dont understand why we need a game thats alot like game X when we already have game X. Why not go play Mega Man 2 again or Street Fighter 2 and let Mega Man whatever or Street Fighter 5 ends up being good in there own right.

you're really dumb if you think that a street fighter sequel is just like street fighter 2.

stop posting please.

[bafflewaffle]

they are just different, sometimes you want a simple meal like taco bell, sometimes you want fancy stuff like wendys, it is just different tastes

[zoukka]

-2d games are awesome, but I would rather have a new arksystem or vanillaware game than a game that could have been done on a Sega (New artstyle HD 2d Megaman would have been great instead of throwback art)

It's nice to want things. High budget 2D games are a big risk nowadays.

-@ the comment about technology versus artistic limitations circa 1982....Considering some of the greatest visually designed games have come out since 2000 (Ico, Okami, Katamari, Killer 7) i believe that maybe the artistic immaturity was true in 1982, but it is no longer an issue (in 1982 games were developed primarily by computer scientists, but now that much of the work is done by computer scientists and artists "artistic immaturity" is no longer an issue.

Artistic maturity has little to do with technical restrictions. It's the content that's keeping the art quiet in videogames.

[lethial]

I get the retro\nostalgia bug every year, have my go then realize I don't want to play these games anymore. I played them enough when they come out and this is going back to SMS\NES days.

[kodt]

Specifically I am talking about games that limit themselves to the specs of earlier consoles or hardware that has been surpassed years ago or games that rely entirely on old gameplay standards

You guys are going to let him stealth troll the Wii like this?

[scitek]

You guys are going to let me stealth troll the Wii like this?

fixed

[MattyGrovesOrMe]

@ the comment about technology versus artistic limitations circa 1982....Considering some of the greatest visually designed games have come out since 2000 (Ico, Okami, Katamari, Killer 7) i believe that maybe the artistic immaturity was true in 1982, but it is no longer an issue (in 1982 games were developed primarily by computer scientists, but now that much of the work is done by computer scientists and artists "artistic immaturity" is no longer an issue.

This refers to my post (#183), which quotes a chunk of Chris Crawford's book on game design from 1982. Essentially, the key part of the Crawford quote is this:

The real issue is not whether or not technology will improve, but whether or not technological limitations are the primary constraints on the game designer.

This speaks to my issue with the claims that new retro-style games "limit themselves" by not taking advantage of the bells and whistles of today's fancy hardware. There is no necessary correlation between the ludic quality of a game and its aesthetic or technically advanced qualities - this is true of all games, not just those played digitally. If a game isn't broken or ludically flawed (ie: if it's a good game), the aversions some people have to old games (or retro games made to look old) can't be rooted in the games themselves, but in the personal perceptive experience of game elements by players, and, of course, player taste preferences.

sn00zer, you just don't like older game aesthetics and mechanics. That's a valid taste preference. Gaming is a severely technophilic hobby - certainly, you aren't alone.

But to claim a new game that takes on positive ludic/visual qualities of an old game is limiting itself? How is a new game that aims to take on past aesthetics and mechanics of previous generations, and does so sucessfully, limiting itself? The game itself has fulfilled its function. What has gone unfulfilled is your expectations of what games made in the 21st century should look like.

[Dash Kappei]

A friend and I have been watching through the Marx Bros. films recently. They're hysterical.

I like you.

[Segata Sanshiro]

Just to add a few more comments to the mix -"Go back to your generic shooters"- Most of the AAA now are not "Generic shooters" Mirrors Edge, Dead Space, Uncharted, Infamous, BlazBlu, Bioshock, Batman, Assassins Creed, Mass Effect, Dragon Age we've been out of "generic AAA shooters and space marines" for a while -I like old games, I dont like games that pretend to be old games -2d games are awesome, but I would rather have a new arksystem or vanillaware game than a game that could have been done on a Sega (New artstyle HD 2d Megaman would have been great instead of throwback art) -@ the comment about technology versus artistic limitations circa 1982....Considering some of the greatest visually designed games have come out since 2000 (Ico, Okami, Katamari, Killer 7) i believe that maybe the artistic immaturity was true in 1982, but it is no longer an issue (in 1982 games were developed primarily by computer scientists, but now that much of the work is done by computer scientists and artists "artistic immaturity" is no longer an issue.

Okay, so you don't like them. Why does that mean they should stop? I have a searing, burning hatred of Bioware's stuff, but I'd never seriously entertain the thought that they should stop doing it and make stuff for me instead. Do you really have so little to play, or are you that egocentric?

[Kai Dracon]

There is a reason why some people, as a hobby and a challenge, build hand-milled brass automata from the turn of the 19th century: not because it's state of the art technology, but because there is was an art that developed in and of itself due to the creation within the limitations of its era.

And, to carry the analogy, those who build 19th century automata bring modern experience to the table. They both pay tribute to the past, and carry refinements even further than the original builders of such devices did back in the day even while working within the same limitations.

It's difficult for those who make video games - and those who play them - to understand this clearly because games are still too new. The rush for new technology, more, better, faster, is still stumbling over itself. But as time goes on, something such as making an 8-bit game will increasingly be seen as a zen art. You don't do it because you don't understand the awesome power of contemporary technology. You do it, because working within a set of limitations creates art in itself, and also, encourages creativity to kick into high gear.

The "retro revolution" is also being used as a fad, it is true, because dur, that is what marketing does. It looks for hot topics to latch onto. First person shooters are a fad also thanks to Call of Duty and Halo - should we start a campaign against first person shooters?

Also, the aesthetics created by older technologies can have their own beauty. A steam engine can be a handsome machine, and an 8-bit Nintendo game can look pretty in its own way. Some of the "retro" style games made today also use modern artistic experience and talent to create better art in older styles than there was back in the day. The same for 8-bit music; chip tunes can sound good in their own way, and a lot of modern chip tunes are great music.

[Coolbgdog12]

Well, I totally agree with you KevinCow. The problem is that we're saying the exact same thing. :lol So, let's be friends and make out.

There was a video where I seen someone get KO'd without a super move.

[KevinCow]

There was a video where I seen someone get KO'd without a super move.

Since everyone's probably really confused about this, I think he was trying to quote me in another thread but accidentally clicked on the link in my tag instead of the quote button.

[Daschysta]

I just dont understand why we need a game thats alot like game X when we already have game X. Why not go play Mega Man 2 again or Street Fighter 2 and let Mega Man whatever or Street Fighter 5 ends up being good in there own right.

Are you big fans of the games in the first place?

For example I can find tons of differences, innovations, subtle changes that improve the experience in each pokemon game, but someone that isn't a fan of the series may look and play it for a bit and say that it's the same.

The purpose of a franchise is to innovate within a narrow field, people play games they enjoy and it stands to reason that sequels should be refinements of what has come in the past, not new IP's thats what... new IP's are for.

Leave my pokemon alone... and Zelda also isn't trying to be purposefully retro, there are tons of changes game to game, also many new IP's don't tend to be innovative either, graphical shineyness or no.

[Crub]

If you don't count indie games there really aren't that many new games similar to Mega Man 9/10. The only games I can think of are Konami's Rebirth series and Epic Mickey 2 for 3DS.

[OnPoint]

If you don't count indie games there really aren't that many new games similar to Mega Man 9/10. The only games I can think of are Konami's Rebirth series and Epic Mickey 2 for 3DS.

It's a shame the Rebirth series was stopped.

[LeleSocho]

Games such as: Mega Man 9 Dark Void (promo game) New Super Mario Bros. Zelda franchise (2D and 3D) "HD" or games with graphic changes (relreased JRPGs) Street Fighter 4 Pokemon Franchise Basically any franchise that relies on older games on the series as a framewrok instead of a platform.

I thought you were going after all these indie 8-bit graphics crap that are now so famous but after seeing this list i can say you are sooo wrong that you have no idea...

As much as i love 2d (and I love 2d to the point that i can buy a game only because it have good 2d graphics) there is way too much indie stuff that is *old school* just for the sake being different from the mainstream games.

[Aeana]

Man, this thread is two years old.

[OnPoint]

Man, this thread is two years old.

Yeah, it was fun to read my posts and see my opinion hasn't changed

[yogloo]

There's something pretty awesome about a game that looks like it came out 20 years ago but has 20 years of experience behind it. You just have to pay attention to the good ones.

This is the truth here.

[Ledsen]

I fear that this may mean less AAA games in the future (huge budget, bleeding edge graphics, cinematic storytelling that wasnt possible on earlier hardware)

Well THANK FUCKING GOD.

edit: god damned it...

[Chacranajxy]

It's a shame the Rebirth series was stopped.

Reminds me that I need to play Contra Rebirth still. I loved the shit out of Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth.

But those, like this thread, died off years ago :(

[Diprosalic]

games should adopt the heavy focus on gameplay of the earlier days, use the technical advantage of the modern days and scrap all that cinematic garbage and stop trying to tell stories like a movie.

[Kunan]

games should adopt the heavy focus on gameplay of the earlier days, use the technical advantage of the modern days and scrap all that cinematic garbage and stop trying to tell stories like a movie.

This is why I like vvvvvv. It possesses the completely gameplay-focused nature and difficulty of the older days, combined with a checkpointing system birthed out of today's games that makes frustration almost non-existant. Then there's a quaint little story about saving your crew and escaping the shattered dimension, which ties the game together rather than being the focus of it.

[SkyMasterson]

Reminds me that I need to play Contra Rebirth still. I loved the shit out of Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth. But those, like this thread, died off years ago :(

:(

Castlevania Rebirth was pretty sweet! Wish they would make another one for sure.

I've been meaning to get Contra and Gradius Rebirth.

[Etrian Oddity]

Thread necro... should stop.

games should adopt the heavy focus on gameplay of the earlier days, use the technical advantage of the modern days and scrap all that cinematic garbage and stop trying to tell stories like a movie.

Totally agree.

Etrian Odyssey ftw! We need more games with an old-school philosophical direction, but with the use of modern tech and game design. :D

[Perfect Cha0s]

Maybe this is just the way I'm reading the OP, but it seems like he's talking more about how gamers swooning over "HD" remakes and whatnot put developers in a rut of remaking games and recycling ideas that are maybe 20 years old, instead of pushing new ideas and IPs; I don't think he's necessarily saying that these games are bad, but that developers are recycling games instead of coming up with something new.

Personally, I don't mind either way. As long as the game is fun, I don't care if it's a HD revival or a brand new game and IP.

[BocoDragon]

Accidental Necro-bump alert.

Lol at people who just wandered in here and started debating with ghosts :P

[Buttonbasher]

My favorite parts of these bumps are when people try to argue with two year old posts.

[dallow_bg]

Op got his wish.

[nowai]

Reminds me that I need to play Contra Rebirth still. I loved the shit out of Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth. But those, like this thread, died off years ago :(

haha I read that as Castlevania: Afterbirth

[Criminal Upper]

Uh. No. Retro revivals is one of the few things that are keeping me sane in this age of Online passes, on disc DLC, retailed exclusive pre-order bonuses, etc.

[Solid SOAP]

I think it's great when games take retro ideas, and expand upon them and take advantage of current hardware. Games like Donkey Kong Country Returns, Rayman Origins, and even Sonic Generations show that you can take old ideas and make them even better by using current-gen production values and ethics.

[Reversed]

I'm sickened of the retro style (visuals, music), but I can't get enough of the concept. It's very engaging.

So I partially agree with OP.

[SovanJedi]

Well sn00zer, you sort of got your wish. Happy now?

Killjoy. >:(

[Chacranajxy]

Oh, but to respond to this woefully outdated, yet still somehow relevant thread...

I like old school games... or rather, games that have old-school, skill-based gameplay. That sort of thing is thrilling, and modern games can't touch the satisfaction you get from beating a really well-made, old-school game. Yeah, there's Demon Souls and Dark Souls, but you know what? That's two games. And they're both patterned after old-school games anyway, so stop bringing up those two exceptions.

ANYWAY.

The problem I have is that way too many games go for the 8-bit look. But guys... that 8-bit look for downloadable games is so goddamned old now that it somehow makes actual 8-bit games look fresh by comparison.

I want to see games keep the old-school gameplay, but do something interesting with the graphics.

[drtomoe123]

God, I loved Mega Man 8 but hated Mega Man 9.

[Shiloa]

I'm glad this got bumped, it's a really good topic. On the one hand, there's a lot of truth to the OPs thoughts. There's a lot of fear of new things and pubs don't want to take risks. When they do they often fail because they are just that, new, and so not perfected. So they go back to things we know well and have developed and improved and honed down to their best qualities that we know work.

Then you have the simple fact that, actually, there might not be anything wrong with that. Games are games. I don't complain about Chess. It will always be a brilliant game. Gameplay is something that can be timeless.

[Kai Dracon]

In my view, the "retro" trend was heavily influenced by the break out hit that was Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved.

But I think a reason why Geo Wars had such an impact wasn't because it "looked old fashioned" or appealed immediately to some supposed hipster audience. Or nostalgia.

Rather, it got attention, this simple little game, because it starkly reminded everyone of the simple and timeless game design values of classic arcade games. Geo Wars made a whole new generation of players fans of the score attack. Of playing a game purely for the sake of a test of skill, and to see where your initials landed on a leaderboard. Without needed to be a first person shooter or other kind of "immersive" game with movie like cut scenes or scripted events.

As soon as Geo Wars hit like a bomb, sure, the retro revival was off and running (not saying it was the only game to push the trend to the mainstream).

Like ALL trends, many came in to just try and ride the wave, or approached it without really understanding it. Many thought just repackaging "old shit" was what people wanted. (Literally repacking old games, often poorly presented or poorly ported.)

Others did approach it as hipsters. They crafted "retroesque" games that weren't really well constructed according to the design values or game mechanic hooks of classic games. But they slapped some 8-bit looks in or something, or recreated a level from donkey kong, or they were naive enough to believe that making a 2D platformer period made it "retro".

These trends annoyed a lot of people, but by the same coin, many of those so annoyed conflate the fine points. They think any game now that uses timeless design values is just "riding the retro wave", and can't tell the difference between a cash-in, pandering, and a genuine preservation of classic content and style for a new generation.

I think on the whole, it's more than worth putting up with the cheap side of the retro revival for the good parts; the phenomenon is helping to remind people that video games were originally games. Not interactive movies or platforms for one man arthouse roadshows. Games built around classic values also help instill respect and appreciation in new players for games that don't hand the illusion of achievement to the player for doing nothing more than plopping their ass in front of the couch and pushing "A" for 5 hours.

Like all trends, this is one that will sort itself in time. For example, are there really that many "retro" games floating around this past year compared to the height of the fad?

[linko9]

I think you're placing way too much emphasis on Geometry Wars. I don't think that was really a factor at all in the "retro revival." The game itself wasn't really retro (relied on dual analog sticks) and had a very modern looking graphical style. Geo Wars was big in making downloadable titles on consoles popular, but other than the name, there's nothing retro about it.

[MTMBStudios]

I think you're placing way too much emphasis on Geometry Wars. I don't think that was really a factor at all in the "retro revival." The game itself wasn't really retro (relied on dual analog sticks) and had a very modern looking graphical style. Geo Wars was big in making downloadable titles on consoles popular, but other than the name, there's nothing retro about it.

Dual stick is some new age shit right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...ABVnltAY#t=18s

[OnPoint]

Reminds me that I need to play Contra Rebirth still. I loved the shit out of Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth. But those, like this thread, died off years ago :(

Be forwarned, easiest contra ever

[MJLord]

I don't mind them re-making games as long as they try to get the benefits of modern tech in it. Why do they seem so afraid to add anything new ?