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Emerson
May contain jokes =>
(04-30-2012, 04:22 PM)
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I was one for several years!
Violet_0
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:00 PM)
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the US is just about the only country where this is still a widely held belief (not even the Vatican holds on to it anymore)
Bisnic
Really Really Exciting Member!
(04-30-2012, 05:14 PM)
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I didn't even know what a "young earther" was before reading this thread.

Now i'm glad i never meet these kind of people. I would probably just laugh at their stupid faces anyway.
Raist
(04-30-2012, 05:20 PM)
Oh, look, JGS trolling abiogenesis out of fucking nowhere.

Anyway. Has anyone seen this young earth belief being held anywhere but the US?
It's quite puzzling. Especially since it comes from people who generally dismiss the OT as "past history" and not that important to christianity. If at all.
Tacitus_
Banned
(04-30-2012, 05:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

Oh, look, JGS trolling abiogenesis out of fucking nowhere.

Anyway. Has anyone seen this young earth belief being held anywhere but the US?
It's quite puzzling. Especially since it comes from people who generally dismiss the OT as "past history" and not that important to christianity. If at all.

Yeah, me. In Finland of all places and to make matters even worse, they were natives :|
marrec
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bisnic

I didn't even know what a "young earther" was before reading this thread.

Now i'm glad i never meet these kind of people. I would probably just laugh at their stupid faces anyway.

I worked with not only one, but TWO YECs when I was with Mitsubishi. This was in the bibliest parts of New Mexico where Catholicism and Patriotism and Machismo cut their palms and became blood brothers. It was odd, because they knew I was an Atheist, so they continually tried to get me to admit that YEC could be correct by bringing up these crazy theories.

Whenever I would tell them that what the pastor told them was a straight up fabrication, they wouldn't get offended or anything, they would just nod their heads and come back with some other bullshit theory.

Good guys though, one of them really knew how to barbecue and the other was quite good on the drums.
Kinitari
Black Canada Mafia
(04-30-2012, 05:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

Oh, look, JGS trolling abiogenesis out of fucking nowhere.

Anyway. Has anyone seen this young earth belief being held anywhere but the US?
It's quite puzzling. Especially since it comes from people who generally dismiss the OT as "past history" and not that important to christianity. If at all.

I noticed that too :p. He hates it, he hates it so much. He knows just how to push my buttons about it too, he'll say "Science Fiction" and then I'm the equivalent of an attack dog let off his leash, but I mean that physically - as I start snarling and bashing my face against the monitor.

I've seen the YEC thing twice that I know of, and I live in Toronto.

First time I was like 12, and some JWs came to my door talkin' bout God and whatnot, directly to me (mom wasn't home or something) - and out of nowhere they say "I mean, I really hope you don't believe we came from monkeys or anything! Do I look like a monkey? It's obvious that God made this earth and all it's creatures here with Adam a few thousand years ago!". I was really young so I didn't know what to say other than "uhhh....." and eventually they left - at that point though my mom had already gotten me my first Evolution book - it was a picture book with a good amount of text... I wish I could remember what it was called. Anyway, I already had a decent idea of how the ToE worked, but I was taught that adults knew better than me about pretty much everything, so it confused me a bit :p.

Second time was a year or so ago, got into it a bit with a co-worker who asked me about Muslim stuff (he was Muslim) and I just said "I'm actually not Muslim" - and the rollercoaster after that eventually led to a debate where he talked about the worldwide conspiracy perpetrated by Scientists and backed by the Devil in regards to Evolution and the age of the earth (among other things) and how man is starting to worship themselves, instead of God.

It's weird how the mention of Creationism or Evolution can make your mild-mannered rational seeming co-worker go full Kirk Cameron.
Uncledick
Banned
(04-30-2012, 05:49 PM)
A giant water balloon explodes and floods the earth... huh. On an entirely separate note, has anyone noticed that women seem to be much more religous/spiritual then men? and in greater numbers. I wonder why that is?
daw840
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:49 PM)
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I went to a christian school (K-12) and they taught all of this stuff....I believed it when I was really young, as soon as I got to middle and high school it all just got kind of crazy. When I questioned it, I was shot down very quickly with random statements about how that's just how it is.

Stupidity and willful ignorance of facts is the only way one could believe this shit.
marrec
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by daw840

I went to a christian school (K-12) and they taught all of this stuff....I believed it when I was really young, as soon as I got to middle and high school it all just got kind of crazy. When I questioned it, I was shot down very quickly with random statements about how that's just how it is.

Stupidity and willful ignorance of facts is the only way one could believe this shit.

Wishful thinking.
daw840
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by marrec

Wishful thinking.

As as way to believe this? I suppose that's accurate.
marrec
Member
(04-30-2012, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by daw840

As as way to believe this? I suppose that's accurate.

Yep, all the rationality in the world can't stop someone from hoping really hard. The more cognitive mobius strips they use to explain away the truth the more their twisted version of events becomes their reality.
Dude Abides
Member
(04-30-2012, 06:25 PM)
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I grew up in a town where at least half the population were literalist young earthers. I recall arguing with one girl about how science indicates a longer age and her response was "but science disproves science!" Wasn't sure what to really make of that except to nod and walk away.
Evlar
Banned
(04-30-2012, 06:28 PM)
Went to school with Hovind's kids. Yeah.
Raist
(05-01-2012, 11:23 AM)

Originally Posted by Evlar

Went to school with Hovind's kids. Yeah.

Well I guess it must have been entertaining. In a way.
jdogmoney
Member
(05-01-2012, 12:09 PM)
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One of the otherwise most intelligent people I've met in person was a YEC. He was a youth pastor, and I was friends with a few kids who were in the same youth group. This guy could discuss theology and philosophy at the drop of a hat, and while I disagreed with him on many points, the conversation was always interesting. Until it came to things like biology or the age of the earth or whatever.

Whenever that subject came up, he would repeat creationist talking points, which I would then research and refute. I hadn't heard of the "evolution is disproved by entropy" argument until he brought it up (although I quickly pointed out that thanks to the energy from the sun, Earth is not a closed system). Unlike when we talked about the headier stuff, for which there was in fact room for debate, he never seemed to consider my evidence or think about changing his point of view. He just sort of didn't say anything and brought up another argument, and the cycle would repeat anew.

It was frustrating seeing an obviously intelligent mind being so restrained by a religious upbringing.

The last thing I remember reading from him was an essay on why Harry Potter was bad because WITCHCRAFT, and he acknowledged that it was good for kids to read, but it wasn't good to read Harry Potter. Something like "it's good for your kid to learn to feed himself, but you wouldn't want him to feed himself poison". I was all
Log4Girlz
I recently went to my friends house to check out his wii. I was generally impressed. It was larger than I expected though.
(05-01-2012, 02:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

Oh, look, JGS trolling abiogenesis out of fucking nowhere.

Cognitive dissonance.
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 03:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

Oh, look, JGS trolling abiogenesis out of fucking nowhere.

Anyway. Has anyone seen this young earth belief being held anywhere but the US?
It's quite puzzling. Especially since it comes from people who generally dismiss the OT as "past history" and not that important to christianity. If at all.

Oh stop, I didn't do that at all. You all know I think abiogenesisis is phoney so why get out of shape evertytime I surprise you by saying...it's phoney. Get over it or improve your teaching methods to convince :).

The topic on hand is whether it's relevant that most of the world doesn't agree that abiogeneisis. Obviously some of the whackier atheists out there are goingto point to the inherent dangers of not believing in it or believing in YEC, but in the end all this indicates is it has had no effect at all on anyone. If that hurts your feelings (Again), then boohoo.

Stop talking about the fallacy of God existing & I'll stop takling about the fallacy that is abiogenesis. (I guess if the mods make it a bannable offense I'll stop too.)
Raist
(05-01-2012, 03:56 PM)

Originally Posted by JGS

Oh stop, I didn't do that at all. You all know I think abiogenesisis is phoney so why get out of shape evertytime I surprise you by saying...it's phoney. Get over it or improve your teaching methods to convince :).

The topic on hand is whether it's relevant that most of the world doesn't agree that abiogeneisis. Obviously some of the whackier atheists out there are goingto point to the inherent dangers of not believing in it or believing in YEC, but in the end all this indicates is it has had no effect at all on anyone. If that hurts your feelings (Again), then boohoo.

Stop talking about the fallacy of God existing & I'll stop takling about the fallacy that is abiogenesis. (I guess if the mods make it a bannable offense I'll stop too.)

No one was discussing the origin of life here, yet you came up with your tired "hey btw guys, abiogenesis is pure science fiction, there's absolutely nothing out there to back it up, it's no different than a belief in god" shtick.

No matter how many times people point out active research in the field with solid data showing that the premise of life arising from simple molecules is a perfectly viable hypothesis, you keep ignoring it and regurgitate the same "100% BS LALALAAAA".

Anyway, anyone familiar with religion and/or science topics already knows your blind opinion about it, there's no need to repeat it over and over again. Especially when it's coming out of the left field in a thread where absolutely no one mentioned abiogenesis to begin with.
Last edited by Raist; 05-01-2012 at 03:58 PM.
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 05:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

No one was discussing the origin of life here, yet you came up with your tired "hey btw guys, abiogenesis is pure science fiction, there's absolutely nothing out there to back it up, it's no different than a belief in god" shtick.

No matter how many times people point out active research in the field with solid data showing that the premise of life arising from simple molecules is a perfectly viable hypothesis, you keep ignoring it and regurgitate the same "100% BS LALALAAAA".

Anyway, anyone familiar with religion and/or science topics already knows your blind opinion about it, there's no need to repeat it over and over again. Especially when it's coming out of the left field in a thread where absolutely no one mentioned abiogenesis to begin with.

Focus on what I was replying to and it may have helped you.

I was just discussing belief and comparing how life got here (A YEC belief) with abiogeneiss (A non-religious belief). People gravitate toward a particular belief about how life started because there has NEVER been anything concrete about it. This is why people who are "otherwise normal" have a whacky notion about life's beginnings (Both YEC & abiogeneis & neither of which have anything to do with evolution debates)

YEC has been disproven by both religious and non-religious people using science but that doesn't actually add weight to either sides basis for their beliefs. It just rules out YEC.

See the connection now?
Josh7289
Member
(05-01-2012, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by ChiTownBuffalo

Bad religion and bad science are bad religion and bad science.

Bad Religion is a good band.
frankie_baby
Banned
(05-01-2012, 05:53 PM)
Here in the UK even the few Christians we have would view this sort of crap as hilarious
Dunk#7
Member
(05-01-2012, 05:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

Focus on what I was replying to and it may have helped you.

I was just discussing belief and comparing how life got here (A YEC belief) with abiogeneiss (A non-religious belief). People gravitate toward a particular belief about how life started because there has NEVER been anything concrete about it. This is why people who are "otherwise normal" have a whacky notion about life's beginnings (Both YEC & abiogeneis & neither of which have anything to do with evolution debates)

YEC has been disproven by both religious and non-religious people using science but that doesn't actually add weight to either sides basis for their beliefs. It just rules out YEC.

See the connection now?

JGS, doesn't Deuteronomy trace the lineage all the way back to Adam and Eve and provide a good estimate (based upon average life expectancy) for the age of the Earth?
ciaossu
Member
(05-01-2012, 06:16 PM)
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I don't have any entertaining stories to tell, just that they've been very conservative and stubborn people who assume I'm on their side because I'm white and live in the south.

Very sad that some people are raised to think science and education are 'tricks'

Originally Posted by imtehman

i heard about this story about where billions of billions of years ago something came out of nothing.

Crazy i know.

well the idea is that all matter and everything was contained in a single point, not that something came from nothing


Originally Posted by Emerson

I was one for several years!

Do I tag quote you and move along or do you tell us how it was?
PoweredBySoy
Junior Member
(05-01-2012, 06:18 PM)

Originally Posted by Raist

Especially since it comes from people who generally dismiss the OT as "past history" and not that important to christianity. If at all.

Sweet. Look forward to when the NT is considered past history as well.
ciaossu
Member
(05-01-2012, 06:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

Focus on what I was replying to and it may have helped you.

I was just discussing belief and comparing how life got here (A YEC belief) with abiogeneiss (A non-religious belief). People gravitate toward a particular belief about how life started because there has NEVER been anything concrete about it. This is why people who are "otherwise normal" have a whacky notion about life's beginnings (Both YEC & abiogeneis & neither of which have anything to do with evolution debates)

YEC has been disproven by both religious and non-religious people using science but that doesn't actually add weight to either sides basis for their beliefs. It just rules out YEC.

See the connection now?

How is abiogenesis a 'non-religious belief'?

It's a well founded scientific theory, people aren't grasping at straws when they research abiogenesis.
Raist
(05-01-2012, 06:31 PM)

Originally Posted by JGS

Focus on what I was replying to and it may have helped you.

I was just discussing belief and comparing how life got here (A YEC belief) with abiogeneiss (A non-religious belief). People gravitate toward a particular belief about how life started because there has NEVER been anything concrete about it. This is why people who are "otherwise normal" have a whacky notion about life's beginnings (Both YEC & abiogeneis & neither of which have anything to do with evolution debates)

YEC has been disproven by both religious and non-religious people using science but that doesn't actually add weight to either sides basis for their beliefs. It just rules out YEC.

See the connection now?

The only connection there is is that when someone mentioned "a lack of critical thinking" you jumped on the occasion to accuse people not having your "abiogenesis is complete horseshit" position of lacking it too. You've proven many times that for you abiogenesis is just a fairy tale pushed by just a bunch of crazy scientists who "have to" because they "can't accept god".

Problem is, you completely fail to see that if you start from the (quite obvious) premise that life arose at some point and not t=0, when earth was nothing but a ball of melting rocks, then the only logical explanation is that living stuff arose from non-living stuff at some point during earth's history. Another possible hypothesis is panspermia, but that's just displacing the problem.

By definition, science cannot accept a supernatural explanation. It's not "just because these evil scientists have an agenda". It's being supernatural phenomenons cannot be considered, in any way, shape, sense or form. So the only alternative would be to say (just like you keep claiming) "yeah well we can't answer that". Again, not an acceptable position. If people kept thinking this, we'd still be living in caves. It's even been the position of several scientists in the past who reached the limits of their understanding and then had to turn to a goddidit "explanation". Thankfully, eventually someone figured stuff out.

Now people have been working on this for decades, and claiming that there is absolutely no evidence that life could possibly arise from non-living material (or the classic "well all there is is a bunch of aminoacids created in a flask") is a complete and utter lie. It's been baby steps so far, mostly proving that many components of a living cell can form from extremely simple molecules, but it's a good start that is already a million times more documented than an ethereal being wishing stuff into existence. There's no comparison AT ALL.
Now if you're going to pull a kirkcameron and expect scientists to make up a dog starting from extremely simple reagents, then yeah I'm afraid you can wait for a long time. But that's an utterly ridiculous position to have.

Originally Posted by ciaossu

How is abiogenesis a 'non-religious belief'?

It's a well founded scientific theory, people aren't grasping at straws when they research abiogenesis.


"Abiogenesis is a fairy tale, no one will ever be able to prove it"
- JGS.
Last edited by Raist; 05-01-2012 at 06:39 PM.
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dunk#7

JGS, doesn't Deuteronomy trace the lineage all the way back to Adam and Eve and provide a good estimate (based upon average life expectancy) for the age of the Earth?

Not really. I mean it does trace the lineage of [Jewish?] man starting with Adam & Eve and so is a pretty good Jewish record for hereditary purposes.

However, that's not a good determination for using regarding the age of the earth/universe though since the days aren't required to be literal and if they aren't literal, then it's impossible to gauge how long they are. For example, there's no indication that God has stopped resting from the 7th day.

Although I have no reason to disrespect people for believing what they want since it doesn't affect me, I think there's sufficient scientific evidence to disprove the Earth being that young unless God aged it for some reason - something he doesn't need to do imo.
Orayn
Member
(05-01-2012, 06:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dunk#7

JGS, doesn't Deuteronomy trace the lineage all the way back to Adam and Eve and provide a good estimate (based upon average life expectancy) for the age of the Earth?

Maybe if you're willing to accept humans living for impossibly long. That's a minor issue compared to thinking that the Earth was created on six literal days because some book said so.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
(05-01-2012, 06:46 PM)
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Guys, it's JGS. He may be a very nice guy IRL, but here on the boards, he's consistently one of the poorest and most disingenuous debaters. Give it up, you're not going to convince him.
KingGondo
(05-01-2012, 06:57 PM)
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This thread was interesting until I ran into successive walls of text from JGS.

*unsubscribes*
Zero Hero
Member
(05-01-2012, 06:59 PM)
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Basically, the main thing I learned that, prior to the Great Flood, it had NEVER rained. Ever. There was a giant water basin floating above the atmosphere where all the water was stored, and, in addition to this, it blocked out the sun's radiation preventing cancer thus everyone lived to 900-years old. I'm no science major, but I felt that, you know, nothing could survive if it never rained. Apparently, though, condensation never existed back then either so the land was super moist and stayed that way.

JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 08:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

The only connection there is is that when someone mentioned "a lack of critical thinking" you jumped on the occasion to accuse people not having your "abiogenesis is complete horseshit" position of lacking it too. You've proven many times that for you abiogenesis is just a fairy tale pushed by just a bunch of crazy scientists who "have to" because they "can't accept god".

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't think scientist are crazy or evil. If you don't believe in God- what else is there to do but believe something without him? That's human nature which if you had read what I stated was exactly what I stated. This makes the rest of the bloat of your comments largely as irrelevant as the importance placed on people who believe in YEC.

Now people have been working on this for decades, and claiming that there is absolutely no evidence that life could possibly arise from non-living material (or the classic "well all there is is a bunch of aminoacids created in a flask") is a complete and utter lie. It's been baby steps so far, mostly proving that many components of a living cell can form from extremely simple molecules, but it's a good start that is already a million times more documented than an ethereal being wishing stuff into existence. There's no comparison AT ALL.
Now if you're going to pull a kirkcameron and expect scientists to make up a dog starting from extremely simple reagents, then yeah I'm afraid you can wait for a long time. But that's an utterly ridiculous position to have.

I'm not lying even if I'm mistaking. I never have a need to lie especially over this ansd especially to the likes of you and your building bigger molehills out of molehills. If you aren't trying to prove something then stop bringing it up. If you are than put up or shut up.

What people are doing this? How many baby steps have they taken? How close are they from starting life from scratch? How on your planet is the notion that the lame little baby steps you mentioned are somehow better than the billions of documented findings regarding the hard science of where life MUST come from?

Right now all you are is talk and you're doing exactly what a YEC does in justifying the impossibility.


"Abiogenesis is a fairy tale, no one will ever be able to prove it"
- JGS.

If I made this quote, I would like to apologize to all fairy tale authors for ascibing the same level of creativity to abiogenesis.

EDIT: I forgot I am helping you prolong a thread derailment so I release you from your obligation of providing the evidence you never would be able to produce anyway.

Originally Posted by Snowman Prophet of Doom

Guys, it's JGS. He may be a very nice guy IRL, but here on the boards, he's consistently one of the poorest and most disingenuous debaters. Give it up, you're not going to convince him.

But I'm not even debating anything! There's nothing even to debate and you of all people have contributed nothing to the process but a condemnation (Some atheists are particulalry good at acting fundamental when they have nothing else to say)

Anyway, I'm sorry you feel that way. EDIT: Nvm. I didn't mean it, I'm just mad that the one idiotic stupid, insane thing that the typical arguer in threads like this can come up with some stupid, lame, idiotic "Wahhh! JGS doesn't play fair!" as if anything discussing a negative view of religion is ever treated fairly on these boards.

I will go on record as saying I don't respect your views on religion period so deflecting you lack of debating skills doesn't really mean a lot to me.
Last edited by JGS; 05-01-2012 at 08:22 PM.
Kinitari
Black Canada Mafia
(05-01-2012, 08:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't think scientist are crazy or evil. If you don't believe in God- what else is there to do but believe something without him? That's human nature which if you had read what I stated was exactly what I stated. This makes the rest of the bloat of your comments largely as irrelevant as the importance placed on people who believe in YEC.

I'm not lying even if I'm mistaking. I never have a need to lie especially over this ansd especially to the likes of you and your building bigger molehills out of molehills. If you aren't trying to prove something then stop bringing it up. If you are than put up or shut up.

What people are doing this? How many baby steps have they taken? How close are they from starting life from scratch? How on your planet is the notion that the lame little baby steps you mentioned are somehow better than the billions of documented findings regarding the hard science of where life MUST come from?

Right now all you are is talk and you're doing exactly what a YEC does in justifying the impossibility.
If I made this quote, I would like to apologize to all fairy tale authors for ascibing the same level of creativity to abiogenesis.

EDIT: I forgot I am helping you prolong a thread derailment so I release you from your obligation of providing the evidence you never would be able to produce anyway.

JGS, we do this every time - we show tons of research being conducted regarding Abiogenesis and you just say "Hogwash" and that's that. We have protocell research, we have amino acid research, there are tons of things we could show you that highlight the continuing advances of our knowledge in the field.

Do you actually care?
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 08:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kinitari

JGS, we do this every time - we show tons of research being conducted regarding Abiogenesis and you just say "Hogwash" and that's that. We have protocell research, we have amino acid research, there are tons of things we could show you that highlight the continuing advances of our knowledge in the field.

Do you actually care?

We never do this. I say hogwash because what you just stated is what you always state WHICH IS NOT PROOF OF ABIOGENESIS.

You bring up the obvious examples out there (Like Raist) and never deliver. It is definitely a waste of both of our times. I don't even understand why it needs to become personal. the purpose of the board is not for everyone to come to mutual agreement over things that are impossible to agree over. It's to discuss opinions and the saltiness always derives from the genrous end of non-religion people that show greater compassion.

Until the mods ban religious talk than it's stupid to keep insisting that religious people have to believe what you tell them to. Why?
Dahellisdat
Member
(05-01-2012, 08:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

We never do this. I say hogwash because what you just stated is what you always state WHICH IS NOT PROOF OF ABIOGENESIS.

You bring up the obvious examples out there (Like Raist) and never deliver. It is definitely a waste of both of our times. I don't even understand why it needs to become personal. the purpose of the board is not for everyone to come to mutual agreement over things that are impossible to agree over. It's to discuss opinions and the saltiness always derives from the genrous end of non-religion people that show greater compassion.

Until the mods ban religious talk than it's stupid to keep insisting that religious people have to believe what you tell them to. Why?

All I can see is that you are tossing aside scientific research into the possibility of abiogenesis. Is the fact that we as humans have been unable to scientifically duplicate the conditions of something that complex that may have happened over the course of millions if not billions of years the 1 thing that is holding you back from even acknowledging the semblance that it could be possible?

Why is it that this can't even hold a candle to the idea that a god made everything out of nothing because he wanted to? There is literally no minutia of evidence to support that idea either!
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
(05-01-2012, 08:44 PM)
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No offense, JGS, but you were even called out recently by Stumpokapow of all people, the most logical, fair, and open-minded mod on the board, in terms of giving people a lot of discursive leeway. Does that not tell you something about the way that you tend to argue, or at least the perception that people have of you on the board?
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 08:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dahellisdat

All I can see is that you are tossing aside scientific research into the possibility of abiogenesis. Is the fact that we as humans have been unable to scientifically duplicate the conditions of something that complex that may have happened over the course of millions if not billions of years the 1 thing that is holding you back from even acknowledging the semblance that it could be possible?

What scientific research was tossed my way in order for me to toss it way?

Originally Posted by Dahellisdat

Why is it that this can't even hold a candle to the idea that a god made everything out of nothing because he wanted to? There is literally no minutia of evidence to support that idea either!

Congratulations, you are arguing my point 100% so welcome to the Brotherhood. This is all nothing more than choosing which of two impossible things to believe. I'm just going to the one that makes the most sense to me. You apparently choose the Dark Side...

Seriously, how can a group of people so bent on proving their point catch one thing and completely miss the other wihthin the same comments? In stark contrast to Kinitari I am not interested in converting people to my view.

Whether it's about YEC or not, if you are talking to someone who believes in God, they do not believe in the scieintific definition of abiogenesis- i.e. most people. Anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid or the person the are speaking to is. Maybe I'm a bit harsher (It doesn't start that way).

More importanly Who cares & Why?
Orayn
Member
(05-01-2012, 08:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Snowman Prophet of Doom

No offense, JGS, but you were even called out recently by Stumpokapow of all people, the most logical, fair, and open-minded mod on the board, in terms of giving people a lot of discursive leeway. Does that not tell you something about the way that you tend to argue, or at least the perception that people have of you on the board?

I think the post directly above this one makes it abundantly clear that he intends to keep fuckin' that chicken.

Also, he seems to think that no research has been done on abiogenesis at all, which is adorable.

Originally Posted by JGS

What scientific research was tossed my way in order for me to toss it way?

Evlar
Banned
(05-01-2012, 08:50 PM)
Frankly, I find it confusing that anyone would think any arbitrarily large collection of molecules ordered in a particular fashion couldn't occur naturally, provided the local equilibria requirements for sustaining that state could be satisfied (temperature, pressure, etc.) It may not be likely, but... impossible?

Sure, you may have some tiny chance of it happening in any particular place at any particular time (with neither the likelihood of finding a place or a time statistically well defined). However, that's against the immensity of this planet and a billion or so years of sloshing irradiated chemicals around.
Dahellisdat
Member
(05-01-2012, 08:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

Seriously, how can a group of people so bent on proving their point catch one thing and completely miss the other wihthin the same comments? In stark contrast to Kinitari I am not interested in converting people to my view.

How can one person so bent on ignoring something completely dismiss something in favor of something that doesn't exist?

Here let me toss this at you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=abiogenesis

Feel free to learn something.
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 08:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Snowman Prophet of Doom

No offense, JGS, but you were even called out recently by Stumpokapow of all people, the most logical, fair, and open-minded mod on the board, in terms of giving people a lot of discursive leeway. Does that not tell you something about the way that you tend to argue, or at least the perception that people have of you on the board?

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about. Not evading, just can't remember although I'm sure a link will popo up if it were important.

The misconsception is I'm debating in the first place. I am not debating anyone. I am not a classically trained debate. I did take a debate class in college but the boards ain't structured like that (Especially when several are replying to me). This is either opinion or it's facts. No one is "proving" anything to anyone and if a question is asked, I always genuinely answer it. It would be way easier for me to pretend to be an atheist.
I completely admit to be clueless about the uknown. It would be nice if if some of the more verbal people on the board did the same.

I understand being disappointed in my debating skills, but it's foolish to attribute negative accusations about what is merely an opinion to begin with. I have no reason to be dishnest, disingenuous, or even mean spirited with anyone on the board unless I'm being sarcastic or if I'm retaliating- something I try to avoid nowadays but not always. My initial posts in theis board were none of those things.

Originally Posted by Orayn

I think the post directly above this one makes it abundantly clear that he intends to keep fuckin' that chicken.

Also, he seems to think that no research has been done on abiogenesis at all, which is adorable.

Not true. the very thing you quoted to prove your point made no mention of attempts at proving abiogenesis. Should I call you a liar now or later when you inevitably bring it up again?

Originally Posted by Dahellisdat

How can one person so bent on ignoring something completely dismiss something in favor of something that doesn't exist?

Here let me toss this at you:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=abiogenesis

Feel free to learn something.

Again you ignore what I said to keep with your own narrowminded view about me. I'm not trying to hold onto a concept I look forward to the day that proof is shown. I just dont think it will happen. I have not completely dismissed abiogenesis and am impressed with the strides scientists make. Baby steps though...This is a good & brief article http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80...earliest-life/

However, this has nothing to do with dismissing but belief something a non-religious person refusies to believe they have even if there's no religious connection. As a result of NO evidence of it occurring, I refuse to believe it. I'm just one guy and my refusal to accept what you accept doesn't change one thing in all the known universe.

You also may want to be careful blindly linking a search you didn't read yourself as that usually helps strengthen my views.
Last edited by JGS; 05-01-2012 at 09:29 PM.
BeesEight
Member
(05-01-2012, 09:41 PM)
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I met one in University. Actually, it wasn't until university that I met any fundamentalist Christians.

This one guy in particular brought it up one night at a party. I don't remember the details very well, we may have been following the American election at the time. At any rate, once he started talking about it, the rest of us just sort of fell quiet and were giving each other the shifty eyes. Alas, I bit - partly because one of my friends is a rabid atheist and the other guy thought I was a staunch Christian supporter... or something.

Anyway, when I pressed him for details, he couldn't remember the theory very well. He explained the big ring of water around the Earth as as a hydrofoil and I remember him mentioning it never rained. I asked how Adam could grow crops since the bible mentions farming before the flood and he said something about water welling up from the ground. After punching a few holes in the theory the conversation eventually died down because it was clear that he didn't even understand what he was talking about. It basically boiled down to most conversations with fundies - 'my youth pastor explained it better.'

He was an engineer student too. I found most of the radical Christians were in Engineering. I suspect it was because they weren't required to take biology.
Raist
(05-01-2012, 10:01 PM)

Originally Posted by JGS

snip

People including myself, kinitari and mario have given you links to youtube videos explaning and summarizing the current knowledgeand research in the abiogenesis field. Many times.
If you want to keep your eyes and ears shut, fine, but don't pretend we never have.

You also have made many statements which I summarized, and saying that abiogenesis and creationism are equals is simply false and outrageous. One is a perfectly logical hypothesis with some evidence backing up the concept, the other is the epitome of irrational, never proven and never to be proven idea ever stemming from mankind's imagination.
Log4Girlz
I recently went to my friends house to check out his wii. I was generally impressed. It was larger than I expected though.
(05-01-2012, 10:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kinitari

JGS, we do this every time - we show tons of research being conducted regarding Abiogenesis and you just say "Hogwash" and that's that. We have protocell research, we have amino acid research, there are tons of things we could show you that highlight the continuing advances of our knowledge in the field.

Do you actually care?

Scientific research, logical deduction, studies from various disciplines will not sway someone who is convinced of the supernatural. Abiogenesis will remain irrational nonsense to those who MUST believe we are of divine origin...no matter the evidence.
squidyj
Member
(05-01-2012, 10:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Log4Girlz

Scientific research, logical deduction, studies from various disciplines will not sway someone who is convinced of the supernatural. Abiogenesis will remain irrational nonsense to those who MUST believe we are of divine origin...no matter the evidence.

Behold, the power of faith.
JGS
Banned
(05-01-2012, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Raist

People including myself, kinitari and mario have given you links to youtube videos explaning and summarizing the current knowledgeand research in the abiogenesis field. Many times.
If you want to keep your eyes and ears shut, fine, but don't pretend we never have.

How many times are you going to use the same argment based on nothing? Who is refuting the existence of experiments to prove abiogenesis? Who?

It your eyes that are wide shut.

You also have made many statements which I summarized, and saying that abiogenesis and creationism are equals is simply false and outrageous. One is a perfectly logical hypothesis with some evidence backing up the concept, the other is the epitome of irrational, never proven and never to be proven idea ever stemming from mankind's imagination

Prove it.

They are the same based on where their views arrive from. I may be more respectful of your view than I should be, but otherwise this is a perception issue of which is right or wrong. In any event, belief in one or the other has no real bearing on the the lives lived by either.
Log4Girlz
I recently went to my friends house to check out his wii. I was generally impressed. It was larger than I expected though.
(05-01-2012, 10:57 PM)
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I wonder what experiments are being conducted to prove there is a god and it created everything. They must be epic in scope and funded by all the major religions.
Dahellisdat
Member
(05-01-2012, 11:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by JGS

You also may want to be careful blindly linking a search you didn't read yourself as that usually helps strengthen my views.

I'm trying to help you figure out how to read evidence.

1: Go to national database of scientific articles.
2: Search for topic being discussed.
3: Read results and learn.

What content from my link helps strengthen your views? Did you read any of the linked articles?
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
(05-01-2012, 11:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by ciaossu

Do I tag quote you and move along or do you tell us how it was?

Haha no jokes here, I honestly was. I dunno how to answer this question really though. I was introduced to Hovind's stuff at some point when I was young and wasn't skeptical enough. I was never/still am not an idiot (thus why I'm no longer a creationist), but I believed it and was pretty religious for three years or so.

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