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TheChewyWaffles
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wthermans

As DICE has stated in the past, "If you buy our games Used, you're not our customer".

But they are consuming the leftovers that someone else originally bought new from DICE. How many people would not buy a new game from DICE knowing they could not resell afterward?
TheExorzist
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by DopeyFish

So you will be limited to the two things that do exactly what you are against? LOL

No no no dude. With Steam and the AppStore, it's a licence you're buying, not an item. That's something eeeeeeeennnnnnnnttttttiiiiiirrrrrrrlllllyyyyy different.
Yagharek
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bleepey

I'm sorry what. I need to post this

Thanks for posting that. Should be mandatory in corporate apologist threads.
alr1ght
bish gets all the credit :)
(05-02-2012, 02:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

Oh man, the delusion.

Video game devs and publishers are not my "friends." Their sole purpose is to part me with my money. That is it. The money has been paid for the copy of the game. I don't magically duplicate the disc and continue playing after it's sold.
squidyj
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bleepey

I'm sorry what. I need to post this

bullshit. You look at most games for the past 10 years and you'll have instances of early prototyping that leads to cut content. What an insane argument.

1) we don't own that actual disc we bought
2) we don't really own the console we bought
3) we shouldn't rent or trade in or buy used those games we don't really own
4) on top of xbox live you pay for an online pass, either by getting said game new or paying $10 because they can shut those online servers down at anytime
5) you don't get to play everything on that disc you bought
6) anything else they forgot to limit or take away from us they can just by inserting words in the EULA agreement
7) If you bring up or try to question any of this you are a whiny entitled prick

basically 7 is correct. if you try to argue that you are owed every bit that is placed on the disc or everything the devs did from the time they started the project until the time they launched then you are an entitled little shit. You are practically the definition of entitled. You know what? You're free not to buy the game and cut off your nose to spite your face in the case of a great game, but you aint owed shit.


Originally Posted by RandomVince

Thanks for posting that. Should be mandatory in corporate apologist threads.

You know who the real culture warriors are by the ones who use the term corporate apologist. So congratulations to you, down there in the trenches, fighting that good fight against... whatever it is you think you're fighting against.
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 02:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

No, what is weird to me is that you admit to see that many, many people insist on their right to resell games (therefore I assume they do this quite often), yet you have no understanding for game companies complaining about this.

If you were head of a game publisher and would invest money into making games, wouldn't it bother you that many people consume these and don't pay you for it and therefore you don't get back your investment?

I am aware of your position. I do not see how you view property rights as something that should be given out by the companies the least interested in providing them. No other entertainment entity operates in this way, and yet they all have robust and corporate-ran second hand markets.

If I were a head of a game company, I'd probably work out a business model that isn't dependent on selling CoD numbers, operate within a reasonable budget and work with my customers and not against them.

As a consumer, it is my right to search out the best deals for my money. Sometimes that is used sales, sometimes it's buying new from Steam, sometimes it's buying new from GoG or retailers. As a business, it's your duty to protect your interest, but I've yet to hear a convincing argument on how attacking people who support you (and if you've ever bought a game first hand, you are) is good business sense.

Now, if you'd like to show me statistics that prove that people who buy second hand ONLY buy second hand (consoles, too) then maybe your position would hold some weight. I would still say the developers and publishers would be much better served trying to provide incentives for new buyers than trying to rewrite how property rights have existed since day one.

Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

...they're not your friends, man. They are the same as any other corporate entity. They are not providing you with hours of enjoyment. They are selling it.
Yagharek
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

Don't be disingenuous.

Reality of the situation is that not every person acquires a product via the means the seller would want. But you are suggesting that alrightstart doesn't get his/her games via legitimate means.


Originally Posted by squidyj

You know who the real culture warriors are by the ones who use the term corporate apologist. So congratulations to you, down there in the trenches, fighting that good fight against... whatever it is you think you're fighting against.

The shoe fits.
GooeyHeat
Member
(05-02-2012, 02:59 AM)
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The scariest part of this is that if an anti-used game system comes, there will be no retro gaming. If authorization servers go down, then games could literally be lost to history.

Also echoing the usual statements that the problem is with the publishers and their crazy budgets and AAA-or-bust mentality. We'd buy more new games if they didn't cost so damn much AND nickel-and-dime us afterwards.
M-PG71C
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by squidyj

No we haven't, and everything everyone says about the cost of next gen is patented grade A bullshit.

But hey, this is neoGAF dude. Low power consoles are good because they are a supposed benefit to the economic health of the industry, meanwhile dealing with the used game industry cannibalizing the tail on new game sales is evil and fuck the industry.

Trading games between friends isn't a problem but the practices of a company like Gamestop is and the amount of money that retailers are able to make off of used games, money that in other lifetimes would have yknow, gone to the devs, kind of speaks to that point. If you think these retailers are not cannibalizing new sales in order to push used at massive profits for themselves then you're kidding yourself.

Grade A bullshit, eh? How many companies/developers/teams went out of business within the last-generation? Skyrocketing development costs is one of many reasons why the industry is hurting. Keywords for comprehension: One of many.

I'm not saying used games sales are not hurting the industry. I'm sure they are. But what is hurting the industry MORE is skyrocketing development costs, asset costs, media costs, marketing costs, etc. The pendulum is swinging way too far on one extreme.

If a company wants to reduce costs, increase quality, and ensure excellent customer relations, then they need to become more cost-effective across the board. Picking strictly one reason on why the industry is hurting is not going to solve the problem.
sixghost
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

No no no dude. With Steam and the AppStore, it's a licence you're buying, not an item. That's something eeeeeeeennnnnnnnttttttiiiiiirrrrrrrlllllyyyyy different.

Steam prices games so aggressively that people gladly give up their right to sell the game. If publishers wanted to lock games to consoles, but the price of all new games dropped to $40, or prices decreased as rapidly as they do on Steam, most people would probably be ok with that.

But you're kidding yourself if you think publishers would do anything but keep prices exactly where they are now, just without the ability to sell the games back.
Ponn01
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

I've been selling my games since my atari 2600, from NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, Playstation, Gameboy, Gameboy Color, GBA, NGP, Gamecube, Dreamcast, import dreamcast, Saturn, Turbografix 16, Turbo CD, PS2, Xbox, Xbox 360 (3 of em) PS3, PSP, PSP 3000, PS Vita, DS, DS lite and 3DS. The vast majority of all those system and game purchases were new. I've been supporting this industry since '82 yet funnily I have yet to receive one thank you letter from any of these companies.

Another funny thing, the used and rental market has been around ever since I started gaming way back then. Those early years had limited supply runs so the used market was extremely important back then. See we didn't have Amazon or this whole online thing back then. Guess what, video games are still here. So I guess you could say the main thing that has changed has been developers and publishers.

Seriously, as much and as long as i've supported this industry I find your comment here extremely insulting and offensive. How dare you accuse people of screwing over an industry built upon the backs of gamers like me.
DTKT
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:05 AM)
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At the same time, the industry could strike a deal with Gamestop and major retailers so that they get a cut from each used game sold. That would keep the used game market open for users and could satisfy the publishers.
angelfly
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:07 AM)
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Actually seeing someone in this thread post that they're happy to give up their rights to help the industry really depresses me. Used games support this industry and the sales of new games. The industry is running on a broken system. They don't want to embrace variable pricing and on top of that they constantly nickel and dime consumers. The industry is fast heading towards another crash if things don't change.
MC Safety
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by RandomVince



The shoe fits.

Maybe we could come with a more apt description for a person who champions the right of a corporate entity over those of an individual, especially in the matter of established property rights?
Yagharek
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by GooeyHeat

The scariest part of this is that if an anti-used game system comes, there will be no retro gaming. If authorization servers go down, then games could literally be lost to history.

Also echoing the usual statements that the problem is with the publishers and their crazy budgets and AAA-or-bust mentality. We'd buy more new games if they didn't cost so damn much AND nickel-and-dime us afterwards.

In some respects, we're already at that point. XBox 1 games are no longer playable online. Catwoman DLC aficionados will be unable to play that part of the game in a few years (unless they pony up for a second copy of the game). Single player content is locked behind one-time use codes, making completion of a game impossible.

Don't think it won't get worse.


Originally Posted by MC Safety

Maybe we could come with a more apt description for a person who champions the right of a corporate entity over those of an individual, especially in the matter of established property rights?

A fool and his money are soon parted
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by DTKT

At the same time, the industry could strike a deal with Gamestop and major retailers so that they get a cut from each used game sold. That would keep the used game market open for users and could satisfy the publishers.

Hm. A literal win-win-win?

Won't happen.
Tellaerin
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

I have to laugh at this.

Exercising your basic rights of ownership isn't 'screwing over' anyone. If you honestly believe that anyone buying or selling something secondhand deprives a manufacturer of what's rightfully theirs, and that I should be sympathizing with them, you really need to put down the kool-aid pitcher because you've clearly had one too many.
sixghost
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(05-02-2012, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by WanderingWind

Hm. A literal win-win-win?

Won't happen.

How exactly does Gamestop win by voluntarily giving a % of their revenue to a publisher for no reason?

Originally Posted by Tellaerin

I have to laugh at this.

Exercising your basic rights of ownership isn't 'screwing over' anyone. If you honestly believe that anyone buying or selling something secondhand deprives a manufacturer of what's rightfully theirs, and that I should be sympathizing with them, you really need to put down the kool-aid pitcher because you've clearly had one too many.

Don't lend that game you just finished to your friend either, you monster.
DTKT
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by sixghost

How exactly does Gamestop win by voluntarily giving a % of their revenue to a publisher for no reason?

That alternative is no used market at all. Gamestop would probably collapse if that would happen.
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by sixghost

How exactly does Gamestop win by voluntarily giving a % of their revenue to a publisher for no reason?

You don't think they're under pressure from all of this? A compromise that promises the future of their markets for as long as there is a physical medium would be beneficial in the long run. Sure, they may only leave with a minor "w" but hey, a win's a win.
Kyuur
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(05-02-2012, 03:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by WanderingWind

...they're not your friends, man. They are the same as any other corporate entity. They are not providing you with hours of enjoyment. They are selling it.

And in order for that corporate entity to keep producing the things you love, they need to make money. So he wants to support them and doesn't mind what they're saying because it will help them make the things he loves (in their opinion and his), and will argue for it. Is it that hard to comprehend?
Kenak
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:20 AM)
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I pay for games I buy with games I sell. If I cannot do this, either the price of games needs to drop dramatically (lol), or I am not buying games. If publishers stop supporting used games, I hope the entire industry goes into the toilet. I can live with just indy devs and retro games.
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kyuur

And in order for that corporate entity to keep producing the things you love, they need to make money. So he wants to support them and doesn't mind what they're saying because it will help them make the things he loves (in their opinion and his), and will argue for it. Is it that hard to comprehend?

Do you understand the difference between disagreement and miscomprehension?
Kyuur
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by WanderingWind

Do you understand the difference between disagreement and miscomprehension?

I do, and I guess I didn't understand your original post then. My bad.
Yagharek
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by WanderingWind

You don't think they're under pressure from all of this? A compromise that promises the future of their markets for as long as there is a physical medium would be beneficial in the long run. Sure, they may only leave with a minor "w" but hey, a win's a win.

I wonder though - most game publishers acknowledge that sales of games are strongest in the first month of release. After that, most people move onto the next big thing.

What might be a compromise is that gamestop could agree to not sell preowned copies of a game in the first month of release (when 60% or whatever of lifetime sales occur).
After that launch period, it's open slather as per normal.

Meanwhile, the games are still playable for a borrower/second hand purchaser and nothing stops anyone reselling a game through private means in that first month anyway.

It's not an ideal solution - (ideally there would be no contrivances) - but at least this way legitimate customers don't get caught in the corporate crossfire during the War against Customer Rights.
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by RandomVince

I wonder though - most game publishers acknowledge that sales of games are strongest in the first month of release. After that, most people move onto the next big thing.

What might be a compromise is that gamestop could agree to not sell preowned copies of a game in the first month of release (when 60% or whatever of lifetime sales occur).
After that launch period, it's open slather as per normal.

Meanwhile, the games are still playable for a borrower/second hand purchaser and nothing stops anyone reselling a game through private means in that first month anyway.

It's not an ideal solution - (ideally there would be no contrivances) - but at least this way legitimate customers don't get caught in the corporate crossfire during the War against Customer Rights.

Eh. I doubt it would have much impact. Most people who aren't buying in the first week are probably waiting for a price drop anyway.
NullPointer
#INTESTINAL
(05-02-2012, 03:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by WanderingWind

Eh. I doubt it would have much impact. Most people who aren't buying in the first week are probably waiting for a price drop anyway.

Well you've just pointed out another big problem: price drops. How can developers make the games we love if they have to accept reduced payment from sales and discounts?

Maybe we can cut a deal with the retailers and digital storefronts so that sales are forbidden. Think of how much that would help the industry!
WanderingWind
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by NullPointer

Well you've just pointed out another big problem: price drops. How can developers make the games we love if they have to accept reduced payment from sales and price drops?

Maybe we can cut a deal with the retailers and digital storefronts so that sales are forbidden. Think of how much that would help the industry!

Already happens. Ever wonder why some games seem to never go on sale? It's not by accident.
Ken Masters
Banned
(05-02-2012, 03:37 AM)
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sorry GAF, i'm 100% ready and ok with DD only for next gen systems
flyinpiranha
Member
(05-02-2012, 03:43 AM)
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My reasoning is pretty simple, I don't buy new games because it's a gamble at that price. For $29.99 I don't mind if it's mediocre. For $59.99 it better damn well be the Mozart of gaming.

There's a reason I only see huge production, special effect laden masterpieces at the theater like "Dark Knight" and don't go see "Get Him to The Greek" for $18/ticket. It's not that I am uninterested in the latter, I just don't feel it's worth that much, but it is worth something ... maybe a rental, maybe even buy the BR down the road for $14 if I really like it for a bunch of us to watch it.

It's the same with anything. I just think the quality of games and longevity of them has gone down while the price has gone up. It's all relative to each person what they deem as acceptable for pricing but I don't feel that Prototype 2 is worth the same as Red Dead Redemption. I might bite at $29.99.

There is also my age obviously and my personal beliefs on the value of a dollar which is completely different from 15 year old me thinking $49.99 for "Cool Spot" on the Genesis was totally rad.

Plus, the problem is public perception on price , but that's another ballgame altogether.

There's too many reasons the gaming landscape is "failing" and honestly I feel that used games and pirating are not the main factors.


Originally Posted by Ken Masters

sorry GAF, i'm 100% ready and ok with DD only for next gen systems

Sorry Ken, but North America is not ready for this to happen, there are too many people with limited bandwidth (all of them practically) and that would cause a decrease in gaming purchases. Especially if this generation we're seeing up 35+ Gb for a game.
Last edited by flyinpiranha; 05-02-2012 at 03:45 AM.
Pureauthor
(05-02-2012, 03:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

Ah, so this unparalleled generosity is apparently supposed to be a one-way thing? I'm supposed to take every bit of exploitation and abuse these game companies are throwing our way but not actually stand up for my own rights as a consumer because that would be selfish?

Or, I could go with services that, when they ask me to give up something like my right to resell games, give me something in return. Like massively discounted prices - that's a pretty nice one.
RustyO
Member
(05-02-2012, 04:18 AM)
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Originally Posted by BobLoblaw

I sure wish we had some solid numbers from Gamestop and other big used game sellers about how many used games they've sold and what timeframe they sold them in (going back about 4-5 years). We need some serious analysis on the actual impact of used game vs new game sales in addition to how much the developer loss (based on metrics NOT assuming that everyone would've bought the game brand new). I keep hearing one side complain about how much it reduces a developer's revenue and the other side complain about how much games cost. Facts. We need them.

This. The business analyst in me would like to see and crunch come hard numbers.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(05-02-2012, 04:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Opiate

Yes, absolutely. First, this is how it works in essentially all other industries known to man. I can sell my copy of Unforgiven to a friend and give no money to the movie studio. I can sell my car on Craig's List and give no money to Honda.

Second, the intrinsic principle of ownership is that I own the thing I have purchased. I can do what I want with it, including smashing it to pieces the second I purchase it, or selling it to another person.

These property rights are very well established in a wide variety of industries. It isn't like I'm espousing radical new laws here.

good luck selling your copy of Windows or Photoshop.

or Civilization.
railGUN
Prine Fan
(05-02-2012, 04:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

good luck selling your copy of Windows or Photoshop.

or Civilization.

Good luck in what way? It can't be done? Or no one will buy it?
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(05-02-2012, 04:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by Opiate

Windows licenses absolutely can be resold; that you personally don't see it is not evidence that it cannot happen (it can, please look it up if you don't believe me). Movies can also be resold, and are also software. Software can be resold.

?????
drexplora
Member
(05-02-2012, 04:47 AM)
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if they do end up killing off used games, the devs themselves should make some kind of program where trading in a sucky game u dont want, or a game ur tired off will give you credit torwards a new game by them.

tying games to a single account gives the devs too much power, why shoudnt i be able to trade games with friends or buy second hand games.

If the system in place fucks them over then they need to come up with a better system and convince people to want to use this new and better system.

Less options is never the better option.
Jackl
Member
(05-02-2012, 04:48 AM)

Originally Posted by subversus

?????

Limited number of activations.

Call support. Say you moved, new computer if they ask. Congratz windows.
railGUN
Prine Fan
(05-02-2012, 04:57 AM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

?????

If you own a full retail copy of Windows, you can sell your license. If the copy of Windows is OEM, you cannot resell it.

You can also sell your license for Photoshop. I'm not sure about games like Civilization.
whitehawk
leeches are the best bait when attempting to land bass
(05-02-2012, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kinyou

Aren't there people who buy games new, finish them, resell them and then buy a new game with that money?

Wont the publishers lose those people?

I trade in games in order to buy more used games. I can justify a $60 price tag for very few titles. Most recently it was God of War 3, and Gears of War 3.
larvi
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:40 AM)

Originally Posted by railGUN

If you own a full retail copy of Windows, you can sell your license. If the copy of Windows is OEM, you cannot resell it.

You can also sell your license for Photoshop. I'm not sure about games like Civilization.

Exactly, and I have retail copies of Windows and Photoshop that I purchased 10 years or more ago and I can install them today on a new computer I build or a VM. I've had multiple PCs in my house since the 90's and have multiple PS1, Gamecube, PS2 and 360 consoles as well for my family. I will never buy software that is tied to a single piece of hardware unless it is heavily discounted.
Opiate
Depressingly Realistic
(05-02-2012, 05:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

good luck selling your copy of Windows or Photoshop.

or Civilization.

As has already been mentioned, you can sell your copy of Windows (provided it is not OEM). You can sell your license for Photoshop as well.

Why wouldn't you be able to sell your copy of Civilization? Honest question.
Night_Trekker
Member
(05-02-2012, 06:01 AM)
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Originally Posted by StevieP

Publishers are still going to be risk-averse when there are dozens of millions of dollars involved in making a game. This will be worse as development costs go slightly higher next gen. No amount of anti-used measures will mitigate that, though unfortunately for us these measures are going to be in place anyway.

Yep. Anti-used policies are going to be a disaster for the industry and for consumers. Here's hoping for a humbling industry crash. It needs one.
Opiate
Depressingly Realistic
(05-02-2012, 06:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

Well, if you don't like it, don't support it. Video Games are a non-essential thing. I'm willing to support this in order to help the industry to grow. You know, I like games. I really do. And I don't want to see game companies struggling just because you want to save a few bucks.

I don't think people have a problem with you giving up your own property rights. You're entitled to do that, although it's very naive to believe you're "saving" the industry in this manner.

I think people have a problem with you insisting other people give up their basic property rights because they are getting in the way of what you happen to personally want.
Last edited by Opiate; 05-02-2012 at 06:07 AM.
Yagharek
Member
(05-02-2012, 06:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by Opiate

I don't think people have a problem with you giving up your own property rights. You're entitled to do that, although it's very naive.

I think people have a problem with you insisting other people give up their basic property rights because their property rights are getting in the way of what you happen to personally want.

Goddamn do I love reading Opiate posts.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
(05-02-2012, 06:06 AM)
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I seriously gave him the benefit of the doubt until the last fucking line.
Jake Tower
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:10 AM)

Originally Posted by NullPointer

Maybe we can cut a deal with the retailers and digital storefronts so that sales are forbidden. Think of how much that would help the industry!

Price fixing is illegal.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(05-02-2012, 06:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Opiate


Why wouldn't you be able to sell your copy of Civilization? Honest question.

because it's tied to my Steam account with 100+ games.

It would be tied if I had bought it

As for Windows I bought my first boxed copy last year. I had only OEM copies before that. Interesting.
neorej
ERMYGERD!
(05-02-2012, 06:14 AM)
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This industry is destroying itself. And they're proud of it.
Jake Tower
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:24 AM)

Originally Posted by subversus

because it's tied to my Steam account with 100+ games.

It would be tied if I had bought it

ProTip: make a new steam account for each game
Leondexter
(05-02-2012, 06:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExorzist

So you are happy to screw over the companies/people that provide you hours of enjoyment. Wow.... No wonder this world is so fukked up.

Playing a game that has been paid for is not "screwing over" anyone. The publisher has its money already. In fact, they probably got it when they sold that game to the retailer. It's none of their business whether I'm playing it, or my son, or my neighbor, or someone else I sold it to.

If you believe differently, you're a hypocrite. I'd like to see copies of the payments you're going to make to the movie companies for every film you've ever seen when you're not alone. Two people, one viewing = theft. Right? Pull your head out.

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