[encephalon]

Exactly. Basically get Toriyama away from writing FF games and if you have him directing restrain him like in X. Nojima's concept for XIII was great (in fact the whole FNC concept is great), which gives me high hopes for Versus since Nojima is actually writing it. Btw who wrote Type-0 and how was it story-wise?

Toriyama might have merit as a director for action event scenes in FF games. Maybe.

I believe ... Tabata wrote Type-0? It was good and had a pretty good ending.

[Fimbulvetr]

He probably meant VII (Sephiroth) and X (Sin)

Eh.

Maybe a mature plot for once, no tweens coming of age bullshit. Cut out all tweeny animu characters from the game. Make that shit more like FFT grit then FFXIII.

Actually, Ramza’s story is probably much closer to being coming-of-age than anything in XIII; it’s just much better written.

So basically "make more Ogre games instead of FF games", heh.

I would not be entirely opposed to this.

xenophobia as a major plot element from a JP developer

Xenophobia isn’t remotely a new theme in JRPGs.

FF games cater towards the teens (this has been stated by Kitase a number of times) so you can't really expect big mature storylines.

Being catered towards teens doesn’t really mean having mediocre writing or talking down to your audience.

[Alcahest]

Fucking Pao
.

[encephalon]

Xenophobia isn’t remotely a new theme in JRPGs.\

I can't recall any others at the moment. But thinking on it, it's likely that you're right. I'd still like to have seen them do a good job with it, especially with the current state of Korean hating going on right now.

[Meccanical]

So I have to ask, who wrote the analects in FFXIII, was it Nojima?

I assume so because they are lore related.

[cartman414]

If they fired everyone who's worked on Final Fantasy since VII, re-hired the people who worked on V and VI, asked (begged) Amano to do the art, it might be redeemable. Maybe. Even V and VI were just kinda ho-hum (IV or VI is probably the pinnacle though).

You contradicted yourself by putting VI under both columns. And V is still one of the best. It's IV that's a little dated.

[Meccanical]

Here's an interesting article.

http://www.rpgamer.com/features/insi...atteryint.html

It's from one of the translators of FFXIII, basically confirming how much of a mess that project was in all aspects.

[Symytry]

You contradicted yourself by putting VI under both columns. And V is still one of the best. It's IV that's a little dated.

The story in V was on the shallow end of town, I was always of the mind that IV had a more robust story, but I agree that V was the best progression of the battle/job system. VI for sure was the summit!

[encephalon]

On one hand, it definitely does seem like a mess. On the other hand, FFXIII was a bit of an experiment in terms of how they localized it (they localized it as they went along). Rewriting script components as you go along isn't necessarily a sign of unhealthy development (although FFXIII most certainly seems to have had a hellish development). Going back and changing things that need to be changed is probably a healthy process. So on one hand, you can probably interpret this as part of the reason why they didn't do this in the first place. On the other hand, rewriting the scenes 4-5 times is quite a few times and the end result was pretty awkward in the end.

FFIV takes itself a little more seriously than FFV, but it's pretty shallow itself.

[RedSwirl]

The comparison between FFXIII and shooters basically came as a result of the shape the game eventually took - not really having an explorable world and mostly focusing on combat.

As for audiences, aiming a story towards teens isn't an excuse for bad writing and incomprehensible storylines. They just get away with that because teens give it a pass. It's basically your typical shonen anime plot which is what a lot of older fans are tired of.

The problem with Japanese companies trying to appeal to westerners is they keep doing it in superficial ways - mainly focusing on visual styles and gameplay mechanics at face value. The the Japanese games that appeal the most to westerners are the ones that didn't even try to in the first place: FFXII, Demon's Souls, Metal Gear, Yakuza (to an extent) - basically games where the creators decided to write a story and setting for their own age group. The same goes for anime and manga too.

Independent of your target audience though, the ultimate key is good writers. Basically, try to think of a shonen anime with good writing/characters: that's what FF should try to be.

Lastly, I don't really see how turn-based battles are essential to FF, or any particular RPG really. Tales stands apart because of the particular kind of real time system it uses. The only real advantage of turn-based combat is that you can stop and analyze every step of the way. I still think XII ultimately made the best compromise with wait mode where you could have the game pause upon each decision you made. It's basically the same as the Infinity Engine games or more recently Dragon Age - giving players complete control over how they experience battles.

[cartman414]

On one hand, it definitely does seem like a mess. On the other hand, FFXIII was a bit of an experiment in terms of how they localized it (they localized it as they went along). Rewriting script components as you go along isn't necessarily a sign of unhealthy development (although FFXIII most certainly seems to have had a hellish development). Going back and changing things that need to be changed is probably a healthy process. So on one hand, you can probably interpret this as part of the reason why they didn't do this in the first place. On the other hand, rewriting the scenes 4-5 times is quite a few times and the end result was pretty awkward in the end. FFIV takes itself a little more seriously than FFV, but it's pretty shallow itself.

That's the thing. At least FFV has fun with itself, and more importantly, has a FUN system.

[Mario007]

That's the thing. At least FFV has fun with itself, and more importantly, has a FUN system.

You can't really judge FFIV on the story from where you're standing in time right now. At the time it was created, it moved the franchise forward in a similar manner that VII or X did. The inclusion of a proper story with character development and twists that were not so obvious at the time was something that many other FF games adopted further on.

[cartman414]

You can't really judge FFIV on the story from where you're standing in time right now. At the time it was created, it moved the franchise forward in a similar manner that VII or X did. The inclusion of a proper story with character development and twists that were not so obvious at the time was something that many other FF games adopted further on.

I think you mean VI by the former.

Perhaps you're right from that standpoint, but anyone who says FFV did nothing for the series just because of the story is utterly daft.

[jaxword]

I think you mean VI by the former. Perhaps you're right from that standpoint, but anyone who says FFV did nothing for the series just because of the story is utterly daft.

Pretty much, it further perfected the job system that was a total mess in 3. Kind of surprised it took so long (FFX-2) for it to return.

[encephalon]

You can't really judge FFIV on the story from where you're standing in time right now. At the time it was created, it moved the franchise forward in a similar manner that VII or X did. The inclusion of a proper story with character development and twists that were not so obvious at the time was something that many other FF games adopted further on.

So did Final Fantasy II. Regardless, it didn't really have a "more robust story" than FFV did.

[CorvoSol]

So I have to ask, who wrote the analects in FFXIII, was it Nojima? I assume so because they are lore related.

I never got if those other Gods mentioned alongside Maker in the Analects were other FNC Gods or not.

[ZombiePlatypus]

Here's an interesting article. http://www.rpgamer.com/features/insi...atteryint.html It's from one of the translators of FFXIII, basically confirming how much of a mess that project was in all aspects.

Holy hell, that sounded like a total mess and a fucking nightmare of a work-environment. Some project managers royally fucked up there. Honestly if this is the cost of shortening the release time between US and Japan, then screw it, I'll gladly wait.

[encephalon]

I never got if those other Gods mentioned alongside Maker in the Analects were other FNC Gods or not.

I'm not entirely sure why "kami" was translated as "The Maker" anyways. "Kami" is almost certainly plural, given that the game references multiple gods. Not just one.

[Mario007]

I think you mean VI by the former. Perhaps you're right from that standpoint, but anyone who says FFV did nothing for the series just because of the story is utterly daft.

Well I meant the move to 3D, usage of FMV movies, extensive use of mini-games that VII brought.

I agree that V was great for the jobs mechanics, true.

So did Final Fantasy II. Regardless, it didn't really have a "more robust story" than FFV did.

Well II kinda laid down the basics of very basic character development by having distinct characters as opposed to simply Warriors of Light, but they kinda scaled back in III with Onion Knights. It was IV that actually went full out, with a story fully revolving around Cecil.

I never got if those other Gods mentioned alongside Maker in the Analects were other FNC Gods or not.

It's kinda confusing but I think maker refers to Lindzei, because other analects name him as the serpent that created Cocoon. Now, it could also be Bhunivelze since he is the one that wanted to be awoken when the door to the invisible world would be open and it was pretty clearly stated by Dysley that the door was opening in chapter 13 with so many people dying

[nib95]

I for one would welcome a really dark Final Fantasy. 7 and 8 had a bit of it and I think it's partly what made them great. X, XII and XIII have a slightly clean cut lightness about them that just isn't as appealing to me.

[Man God]

FF XIII is dark as hell.

Of all the complaints about the game I'd never expect to hear that one.

[nib95]

FF XIII is dark as hell. Of all the complaints about the game I'd never expect to hear that one.

I dunno man, still too modern clean. From the characters even down to the type face used in the menu's. Though I agree parts of it were. FFXIII Versus....now that looks dark.

[encephalon]

I don't know, I seem to remember instances in which "kami" was used in a context that corresponded to multiple gods.

[ULTROS!]

FFVI was pretty dark, especially during the WoR.

[ZombiePlatypus]

FF XIII is dark as hell. Of all the complaints about the game I'd never expect to hear that one.

It definitely has some considerably dark aspects. But it also has this thing called Vanille that ruins and overshadows any potential redeeming qualities. (Not to mention all the other issues...)

[entrydenied]

It's kinda confusing but I think maker refers to Lindzei, because other analects name him as the serpent that created Cocoon. Now, it could also be Bhunivelze since he is the one that wanted to be awoken when the door to the invisible world would be open and it was pretty clearly stated by Dysley that the door was opening in chapter 13 with so many people dying

In the Japanese version I believe(my memory is a bit vague) Dysley used 眾神 instead of a term for a single god. It is only in the English version that he refers to one single entity. So I think he was always refering to gods as a collective made up of the FNC gods rather than just one single god.

[Mario007]

In the Japanese version I believe(my memory is a bit vague) Dysley used 眾神 instead of a term for a single god. It is only in the English version that he refers to one single entity. So I think he was always refering to gods as a collective made up of the FNC gods rather than just one single god.

Oh right, that would make more sense. Because having someone called the Maker only appear in FFXIII and not referred to as such in any other FNC lore was very confusing.

[NinjaFusion]

Can Square save the brand?

More like does anyone want them to?


The market which spawned FF7 and all the other decent FF games does not exist any more.... both in terms of cost structure and player base.

Making another FF7 with next gen, or even current gen visuals would be an astronomical task and everything we know about Square suggests their culture, structure and processes are old-fashioned at best and broken at worst.


Didn't Grin say that Square insisted every document, even game code, was faxed to their HQ for approval?


I have about as much faith in Square as I do in modern day Sega.

[entrydenied]

Didn't Grin say that Square insisted every document, even game code, was faxed to their HQ for approval?

I still think that was GRIN trolling SE... Or SE staff trolling GRIN...I refuse to believe that is true (as far as actual business practices are concerned). It just sounds too impossible...

EDIT: This is the original story for anyone who knows Swedish. I don't. http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesblade...cle13094476.ab

The original Kotaku article mentioned that they use Google translate (lol)...

This is according a story (translated via Google) published today by Aftonbladet, an often provocative tabloid but, with 1.2 million readers, a newspaper of record for Sweden......Bo Andersson said (Google translation.) "It is an impossible requirement, you can not send ASCII or binary codes on the fax. It is backward. Really retarded. It was almost a criminal activity."

As far as my internet skills can help, all articles of the said incident points back to Kotaku as a source.

[z0m3le]

Not sure this has been posted in the thread, it's 33pages deep, so I'll just leave this here:
http://imageshack.us/f/90/1306789468100.png/ This is the problem with Square, tragic heroes that are too emotional at the offset of a game... just look at everything lost odyssey did right. Forget about huge budget movies and make a game/story that feels connected.

anyways that is only my opinion, but with an entire thread on this, I can't be alone right?

[Perfo]

This is the problem with Square, tragic heroes that are too emotional at the offset of a game...

Ok... but

just look at everything lost odyssey did right.

Didn't Lost Odyssey throw at the player unnecessary emotional moments just for the sake of it? It was quite embarassing for me the writing and story in that game. I'm not sure Final Fantasy has anything to learn from it.

[z0m3le]

Ok... but Didn't Lost Odyssey throw at the player unnecessary emotional moments just for the sake of it? It was quite embarassing for me the writing and story in that game. I'm not sure Final Fantasy has anything to learn from it.

The beginning of that game, you are a badass, you eventually learn about yourself because well, you don't remember anything, and sure there is a lot of emotion in that game, but it comes with the story, the character didn't start out that way, it just happened to him. Though I will admit that it does happen pretty early in the game, but then again lost odyssey has FF ties, so it will draw similarities. What it should learn from LO: The budget wasn't wasted on a billion FMVs, everything was relatively short in comparison and it got back into action relatively quickly... still was a bit too linear for my tastes, but when you are just worried about the story, that will happen I guess. :/

[Mario007]

The beginning of that game, you are a badass, you eventually learn about yourself because well, you don't remember anything, and sure there is a lot of emotion in that game, but it comes with the story, the character didn't start out that way, it just happened to him. Though I will admit that it does happen pretty early in the game, but then again lost odyssey has FF ties, so it will draw similarities. What it should learn from LO: The budget wasn't wasted on a billion FMVs, everything was relatively short in comparison and it got back into action relatively quickly... still was a bit too linear for my tastes, but when you are just worried about the story, that will happen I guess. :/

Never played LO but from that description that does sound very FF-ish. With regards to the FMVs, they're already trying to reduce them, but really at this point in time an FF game without fucking uber amazing FMVs would not feel like an FF game. (now that doesn't mean you need to do XIII chapter 12 kind of FMVs but rather XIII-2 opening kind would be nice)

[Perfo]

You know... FMVs are developed by a different team, almost outsourced to a certain point. I really don't see how diminishing FMVs can make a game better.

edit.

Have you ever played Xenosaga? or what about MGS4? the problem with those games is the ratio between FMV and Gameplay wasn't balanced (MGS4 was more of a loading problem), too much story and not enough game play, can be a deal breaker,

I agree yet this was never a problem with Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy XIII itself balanced gameplay and cutscenes pretty well infact. You're trying to make comparisons between Final Fantasy X and Lost Odyssey but you're forgetting those two games are equally linear and constricted in their level design and freedom allowed to the players. They're linear experiences.
I get your point btw – even if I disagree on letting the story play lesser importance in it – I think as well that Final Fantasy should give the players control back again. One doesn't need a giant open world to enjoy exploration, but at least they should let us think their fantasy worlds are without borders, even if it's just an illusion. Previous Final Fantasy were doing this better than PS2 and PS3's ones.

[z0m3le]

You know... FMVs are developed by a different team, almost outsourced to a certain point. I really don't see how diminishing FMVs can make a game better.

Have you ever played Xenosaga? or what about MGS4? the problem with those games is the ratio between FMV and Gameplay wasn't balanced (MGS4 was more of a loading problem), too much story and not enough game play, can be a deal breaker, sometimes when I want to watch a movie, I'll just watch a movie, and if I don't want to watch a movie, don't make me read a book either, playing an rpg use to be about navigating dungeons, finding treasure and exploring the world you are trying to save. FF did this very well, but hasn't done it lately at all. Even FFX was pretty linear, with "dungeons" that had only one way to go often, and nothing to really find, you rarely got to explore too... That is something they could learn from LO as well, though exploration is still very limited thanks to this entire generation going for "huge" worlds that are actually very small.

[ZombiePlatypus]

Can Square save the brand? More like does anyone want them to? The market which spawned FF7 and all the other decent FF games does not exist any more.... both in terms of cost structure and player base. Making another FF7 with next gen, or even current gen visuals would be an astronomical task and everything we know about Square suggests their culture, structure and processes are old-fashioned at best and broken at worst.

I think it's safe to say that most of the soured fans (or most fans in this case) would gladly eat up a brand new FF game a la FFVI through FFX if it means it has to be made with specs that are scaled back a bit. Yeah, top-notch presentation is part of Square's brand, but it can still have killer presentation without being a technically bleeding-edge effort.

(This is all a moot point though. Even if you take away the labor and cost issues, there are writing-quality issues that need to be tended to first.)

[CorvoSol]

It's kinda confusing but I think maker refers to Lindzei, because other analects name him as the serpent that created Cocoon. Now, it could also be Bhunivelze since he is the one that wanted to be awoken when the door to the invisible world would be open and it was pretty clearly stated by Dysley that the door was opening in chapter 13 with so many people dying

Wait, I thought Maker was Pulse? Because that's the way the Analects make it seem, referring to Lindzei and Etro by name, but Pulse as Maker.