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In defence of Kid Icarus's Controls. Sakurai: "You doing it wrong."

http://uk.ds.ign.com/articles/122/1224194p1.html

Close if old.

Sakurai's doubts about the implementation of dual-slider control ranged well beyond whether his team could have technically achieved those settings during the game's development. His reasoning extended to competitive equality and innovation as well. "I do have my doubts over whether it'd be that easy to provide support," Sakurai said. "I think any game needs to provide new experiences and stimulating things to discover, but if we provided run-of-the-mill controls for it, that cuts down on the game's potential. If a player used to touchscreen-based aiming played against someone used to right-analog control, the first player would probably dominate. The speed is on a whole different level."
...
"If there are players who say that it makes their hand tired, that's because you're applying too much force," Sakurai told me. "Try to relax and work on building a rhythm to your control. Place the pen in the middle of the touchscreen; when you're flicking it, take the pen off the screen as you're sweeping with it, and stop right there. That's the basic idea."
...
"Smash Bros. led to similar misunderstandings when it first came out," Sakurai said. "Some people, including within the company, commented that they couldn't imagine a worse game. The project was really saved by the fact that people "got" how to play it after it was released. If we had just listened to the complaints and instituted health gauges or command-based special moves, I don't think we would have invented a new style of play that way. The controls here really aren't that difficult, either, so I'm hoping that people will be able to get used to them."

I guess sakurai loled at Shadowrun shooter eh?

People with CCP, how does it handle quick aiming in MGS or Reveliation?

And god, I remember being baffled by smash bros controls on 64. Jump with c buttons? "smash" the stick?
 

Orayn

Member
He's absolutely right about aiming speed as it pertains to the flying sections. When you're dealing with targets in a fixed area, having something 1:1 like a mouse or a stylus really is faster than scooting around a cursor with an analog stick.

On the ground it's not quite as dramatic, but the game still does tend toward shooting at a large number of targets that are all in front of you in single player. CPP support would still be a great thing for them to patch in, if only to assuage the internet.
 
I must admit, the more I play, the more natural it becomes.

Can't help but feel Sakurai's going to get some flak for the "doing it wrong" comment though...
 
Judging by forum postings alone, most people who played the game and gave it at least a good two hours found the control scheme eminently usable, if not excellent.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
So I guess I should take the note about being able to play KI:U without the stand off my CV.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

I wanted to grab the game but haven't because you have to use a stand and sit at a kitchen table type area to play according to what I've heard. Is it as bad as it sounds? Can I play on my couch?
 

Raptomex

Member
My hand cramped but I pushed through. You get use to it. Though, I would have used the dual sliders if it was implemented.
 

Orayn

Member
When more people hate your controls than like them, you are doing it wrong sir.

What makes you think that's the case? Forums where people are liable to whine? I'm not saying that the controls are perfect and for everyone, but it's easy to get a distorted perspective on these things.
 

V_Ben

Banned
This.

People who complained about the controls just haven't put in time to master it.

You know what wouldn't require time to master? A dual analogue setup. Just give people the option to use it, and people will use what they want.

Edit: I'm left handed, so playing this game on a 3DS a while back was about as far from fun as it could get.
 

tsab

Member
Sakurai: Screw you lefties

none of all the control schemes seem to be comfortable to me. Maybe dual analogue but nooooooo. I would have a disavantage on online, which I don't play :mad:
 

-MB-

Member
He makes one crucial mistake, the person who uses the rigth analogue probably does so because he can't get used to the touchscreen method.
Hence he would get dominated even worse using those, at least with right analogue he will get dominated less whilst using a controlscheme he likes better.
 

Sophia

Member
The style was pretty natural to me once I hit Chapter 3. I never really had any issues.

I see where he's coming from with the stylus controls too; It would be a lot slower than dual sticks due to the nature of how fast you can aim and control the camera with the stylus.
 

KarmaCow

Member
I still don't understand why the right dual stick control system wasn't supported. Not that I want to play it that way, but it doesn't make sense when you can aim with the buttons.

Either way, the hand cramping and inability to properly play it on the bus is what made me put down the game, but most of that is the 3DS's fault.
 

The Lamp

Member
I say the same thing to people who complain about Skyward Sword's controls (I never had a problem with them lol).

I've been meaning to pick up KIU after finals but the idea of how the controls work just sounds clumsy to me, but I'm sure it's more natural with practice.

I'll never understand why the 3DS isn't dual-analog.
 

Orayn

Member
Sakurai: Screw you lefties

none of all the control schemes seem to be comfortable to me. Maybe dual analogue but nooooooo. I would have a disavantage on online, which I don't play :mad:

What about the Circle Pad Pro? That is an option.
 

Eusis

Member
Spend a bit of time with the controls, and they stop being too uncomfortable. I do prefer that levels are shorter than not though. It'd be awesome to use both though, at least for single player, it's amazing for in the air, it's useful in more intense areas on foot, but for exploration with pushover enemies I'd rather stick with an analog stick.
 

zroid

Banned
I have no problem whatsoever with the controls, but honestly Sakurai, the game needs to be patched for dual analogue. Just suck up your pride and whatever misgivings you may have, and appease the masses. You, Nintendo and your fabulous game will be all the better for it.
 

SteeloDMZ

Banned
I wanted to grab the game but haven't because you have to use a stand and sit at a kitchen table type area to play according to what I've heard. Is it as bad as it sounds? Can I play on my couch?

I played the game during an uncomfortable flight and had no trouble at all. Although, I prefer to play this game laying on my bed with the 3DS close to my chest.
 
It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

I want to agree with this as the controls are fine for me and there's certainly a learning curve, i'm thinking the main problem people have is that it can get uncomfortable with the hand position needed, that said I overcame any sort of awkwardness after two chapters, I guess one could say no pain no gain. On the other hand I have small hands so maybe it's more of a persistent problem for those with mega mitts.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
You know what wouldn't require time to master? A dual analogue setup. Just give people the option to use it, and people will use what they want.

Dual analog fucking sucks. What a garbage way to aim at anything.

It's better than single analog plus buttons SIMULATING a second stick, but that's about it.
 

jett

D-Member
Your game required a friggin' stand to be bundled with it. No, I'm pretty sure you did it wrong Sakurai.
 
Can't help but feel Sakurai's going to get some flak for the "doing it wrong" comment though...

Honestly, he didn't really say that. The thread title is inflammatory.

We've seen other devs bluntly say "you're doing it wrong" before, and Sakurai didn't do that. He actually gave a little mini-tutorial on one way to try the game to see if it suits you better if your hand feels tired. He says reasonable things like expressing the hope that people can get used to the controls, not "all journalists were too stupid to realize my vision!"
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I think he is right with the Smash Bros. analogy. If Smash were an unknown game and first released today, I can imagine there would be negative reviews and howling on forums about its "stupid, idiotic" control scheme because Smash doesn't work exactly like any other fighting game, or any other platforming game.

Problem is, it's difficult to discuss what isn't perfect about Uprising's controls without eliciting an allergic reaction from some folks who may be resistant to anything that deviates from a dual analog stick system on principle alone.

Reminds me of the many arguments surrounding Metroid Prime when it first hit, about how it was absurd and shitty because it didn't play exactly like Halo. (C-stick wasn't used for full mouselook style aiming.) Nevermind that Prime wasn't even designed to play like that, and the enemies in the game weren't designed to require those kinds of controls to be fought.

I stand behind the idea that KI:U should have included a CCP dual stick mode purely to shut up complaints about it and provide direct contrast between playing it with dual slidepad control and playing it the way the levels (even on foot levels) are designed around the stylus controls.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
You know what wouldn't require time to master? A dual analogue setup. Just give people the option to use it, and people will use what they want.

Edit: I'm left handed, so playing this game on a 3DS a while back was about as far from fun as it could get.

Pretty much. It would have been no problem for them to parade the touch screen control around if they added true CPP support on the side, but they didn't, despite the mass complaining months before launch.
 

-MB-

Member
I guess a somewhat valid excuse to not include circle pad pro dual analogue scheme from the getgo,
is because that would have stopped some from even trying the stylus controls and just go for dual analogue just because they are used to that setup.
 
When more people hate your controls than like them, you are doing it wrong sir.

What? The reception of this game has been overwhelmingly positive and it's selling well.

The controls worked perfectly for me, the game requires precise and really fast aiming and there is no other way to do this with the 3DS hardware other than stylus + touchscreen since you can't use a mouse or Wiimote with it.
 

tsab

Member
What about the Circle Pad Pro? That is an option.

both slide pads are for moving Pit. You can't aim with the right one. And I am not used to move the character with the right hand. I prefer moving with the left and use my right index's fingernail for aiming.

better than nothing but still dual sliders would be nice.
 

ZoddGutts

Member
It's a control method that requires practice. Once mastered it, it's almost perfect.

What a lame excuse, this can be said with any controls that are bad. Hell my right click mouse doesn't work right now and had to change the jet pack controls for Tribes Ascend, I'm using the left Ctrl and still do well in the game after tons of practice, doesn't change the fact that it's a pain in the ass to use that new control method. Gonna buy a new wireless mouse soon.
 

irishcow

Member
I dislike the controls. It's not that I haven't mastered them. It's just not comfortable for my hands. What's the problem with giving players options? Dual analog with the CCP would have been much nicer for some players, including me.
 

grumpy

Member
I never had any issues with the control scheme. In fact, I hope more games use the stylus/touch screen for aiming.
 

Orayn

Member
Your game required a friggin' stand to be bundled with it. No, I'm pretty sure you did it wrong Sakurai.

You know what obviates the need for the stand? Having legs.

bgXXl.jpg


(Yes, that is some amazing camerawork on my part.)


both slide pads are for moving Pit. You can't aim with the right one. And I am not used to move the character with the right hand. I prefer moving with the left and use my right index's fingernail for aiming.

better than nothing but still dual sliders would be nice.

I'm quietly hoping it's something they'll include in the patch.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Wouldn't you need triple analogue to replicate the controls; One to move Pit, one to move the camera and one to aim?

Unless you're telling me you're suggesting the old aim at the edge method of camera rotation which would be terrible for this game.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I wanted to grab the game but haven't because you have to use a stand and sit at a kitchen table type area to play according to what I've heard. Is it as bad as it sounds? Can I play on my couch?

That's definitely an exaggeration. I've put over fifty hours into the game and I've used the stand like...once

EDIT: Dual analogue would suck for this game, no two ways about it. The pace of the game just doesn't work for it, you need the globe spinning turning.
 
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