[tuna on toast]

Not to sound like a creep, but I saw your post in the pictures thread and you're cute, so maybe it's a self confidence thing. If you don't look confident people won't ask you out? I don't know...

I'll be a little creepy...

Leeness,
I also just looked at your pics. You've got a pretty face and nice boobs and I'm not sure why you don't get asked out, but it's not because of your looks. Socialize with some new people maybe.

[shanshan310]

What's wrong with JokerofSpades?

He's insanely ignorant about anything women-related and lives off stereotypes. He has difficulty understanding that not all women, and often not even the majority of women fit into his stereotype. He also has trouble seeing women as being people, and similar to men. Just have a read of that thread.

Look at Dating-Age. What does a man have to do to get laid? A woman really just has to show up where guys are. Not that I'm saying a woman should be called any derogatory names for it... just that I can kind of understand why respect is given to a man who gets laid often. It takes work.

Women have the better orgasms, yet men are often more sex-crazy (that's what I meant by that). That's due to testosterone.

And no matter what you say, he never understands. He just uses anecdotal evidence to back up his stereotypes and reinforce that they are "facts" in his mind. Its completely impossible to reason with him.

[JokerOfSpades]

He's insanely ignorant about anything women-related and lives off stereotypes. He has difficulty understanding that not all women, and often not even the majority of women fit into his stereotype. He also has trouble seeing women as being people, and similar to men. Just have a read of that thread.

You know, I was only trying to find out responses to those arguments. In real life I've often espoused view similar to Devo's here, despite their unpopularity. When people respond, I try to figure those things out. And I absolutely always think of women as people. Maybe it's because I'm bad at expressing my views, but I always try not to be offensive. But I get responses like this instead.

Furthermore, I always give a specific example of what I'm talking about. Maybe you guys assume I mean all women, but I'm not stupid.

And no matter what you say, he never understands. He just uses anecdotal evidence to back up his stereotypes and reinforce that they are "facts" in his mind. Its completely impossible to reason with him.

I'm actually one of the only people who has posted studies in there. The anecdotal evidence has come from the other side. And what I use those things to prove have been backed up. I'm really not trying to offend any of you.

[Professor Beef]

Keep on truckin, Leeness.

Keep on being GAF, GAF. Well, ok, maybe you can calm down a little.

[Devolution]

You know, I was only trying to find out responses to those arguments. In real life I've often espoused view similar to Devo's here, despite their unpopularity. When people respond, I try to figure those things out. And I absolutely always think of women as people. Maybe it's because I'm bad at expressing my views, but I always try not to be offensive. But I get responses like this instead. Furthermore, I always give a specific example of what I'm talking about. Maybe you guys assume I mean all women, but I'm not stupid. I'm actually one of the only people who has posted studies in there. The anecdotal evidence has come from the other side. And what I use those things to prove have been backed up. I'm really not trying to offend any of you.

You use your college as a defensive mechanism for when your assumptions don't align up with anything else.

[shanshan310]

You know, I was only trying to find out responses to those arguments. In real life I've often espoused view similar to Devo's here, despite their unpopularity. When people respond, I try to figure those things out. And I absolutely always think of women as people. Maybe it's because I'm bad at expressing my views, but I always try not to be offensive. But I get responses like this instead. Furthermore, I always give a specific example of what I'm talking about. Maybe you guys assume I mean all women, but I'm not stupid.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you pot stirring to see how people will respond, or are you really typing what you feel?

I'm sorry to come off as harsh. I am just tired of the responses (from everyone) in those kinds of threads. I can tell you aren't trying to be offensive, but you need to stop stereotyping women - and you do do it. You stop doing this and I think most of the angry responses you get will disappear.

[Lissar]

That bingo chart made me laugh. Especially the "women like pink" one, as though that were the same throughout all cultures and time periods! In fact in the Victorian era they were recommending pink to young boys because it was a shade of red, a maaaanly color, and light blue for girls because it was viewed as softer (no wonder Alice wore blue rather than pink!)

Many things are not the same depending on the culture and the time! There are cultures where women are viewed as the sex crazed ones, that the men have to hold off.

[JokerOfSpades]

You use your college as a defensive mechanism for when your assumptions don't align up with anything else.

To be fair, many others have noted that it does make sense. That's where I get my anecdotal evidence (and the quotes from people). I think even you might have acknowledged that at some point - that people are quite different at that age (which is why I still know girls who slut-shame).

I've never agreed with slut-shaming or victim blaming or any of those things.

I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you pot stirring to see how people will respond, or are you really typing what you feel? I'm sorry to come off as harsh. I am just tired of the responses (from everyone) in those kinds of threads. I can tell you aren't trying to be offensive, but you need to stop stereotyping women - and you do do it. You stop doing this and I think most of the angry responses you get will disappear.

I'm not pot-stirring, but I am trying to learn something/figure out responses to the things that I've heard.

I generalize both genders, to be fair. But I still at least dictate that I'm talking about probability and specific parameters. And a good majority of what I've said has indeed come from female friends.

With the argument about genders finding certain things easier, I wasn't trying to put down women in any way. I was attempting to explain a position:

I think now's a good time to reiterate my position: 1) Men are given respect for promiscuity because it's more difficult to be that way 2) Women are likely slut-shamed out of jealousy 3) Everything else was an argument I had heard as to why women being promiscuous was bad, or otherwise slutty - I did figure out some responses to that, though: - Again, guys would do the same things if they could, so jealousy - Ooh, even better. I remember saying that if women fell for guys being assholes and ended up having sex with them, how that's on them. I'm certain people in my college would agree. So if a guy is going to have sex with a girl who uses her body in that way (to gain things) - well that's on you.

My purpose is to learn... and points 1 and 2 were things that I argued recently on a paper, that I got a perfect score on. A sociology paper. My teacher is quite feminist. Didn't figure how I was trying to explain it here would be damaging, but.

I just want to clarify again:

- Never have been for slut-shaming
- Never have been for victim blaming
- Only thing I've said that was really my opinion and argued about was that women find it easier to attain sex - which I did bring up statistics for

Again, maybe it's how I word things. But I'm really not trying to anger anyone - I enjoy reasoned debate and will admit when someone else is right (usually by a duly noted).

[Kabouter]

Joker, if you can't stop putting your foot in your mouth, it might be best to stay away from certain threads. Like this one.

[JokerOfSpades]

Joker, if you can't stop putting your foot in your mouth, it might be best to stay away from certain threads. Like this one.

God dammit.

I will regret this, but what did I do now?

EDIT: I'll try to keep this as short as possible so I don't further ruin this thread...

[Lissar]

Even though the topic is one relative to discussion here, I think it would be best if we don't talk about specific posters that are irritating us to avoid getting into arguments here. (We have other places we can talk about it if we really must, like in the RP IRC. If you don't know where that is, one of us can post that info in here.)


Anyway, bras! Talked to Devo about this, but found this site the other day: http://bratabase.com/

You put in your measurements and it gives a list of bras that might fit you. Don't be surprised by the size it gives you! According to this and many other sites I've been reading, I'm supposed to be wearing a 30FF/G. Apparently this is a relative cup to what I've been wearing, just with a tighter band for more support. I'm going to try this to see if it works, because I get massive backaches from walking around too much, or even from just sitting up for too long.

[RawPower]

I just saw that Cracked article. The first paragraph alone was stupid enough to turn me away from it.

[The Anti-Monitor]

I figured you'd bailed, Devo. The guy who started the thread said he believes that women dressing provocatively "has an effect" on being sexually assaulted. So... yep. Billie, it definitely is. :( It's a circle of bad for me. Little self-worth > no one likes me > even less self-worth. And I know it shouldn't be defined by what others think of me, but... I'm kind of crazy like that. :(

Aw, come on. How many comments do you need to realize people like you? You just have to get a bit more used to big social events and that's all. Why don't tell us a little more? I used to be the same and it's all a matter of changing your mind.

And I like JokerofSpades' topics. Not to put any deep thought in them but they're sorta interesting and brings to light some stuff about people I otherwise wouldn't imagine.

[shanshan310]

Anyway, bras! Talked to Devo about this, but found this site the other day: http://bratabase.com/ You put in your measurements and it gives a list of bras that might fit you. Don't be surprised by the size it gives you! According to this and many other sites I've been reading, I'm supposed to be wearing a 30FF/G. Apparently this is a relative cup to what I've been wearing, just with a tighter band for more support. I'm going to try this to see if it works, because I get massive backaches from walking around too much, or even from just sitting up for too long.

I've signed up, but I don't have measuring tape on me so I can't make use of it juuust yet. Thanks Lissar ^^

And I like JokerofSpades' topics. Not to put any deep thought in them but they're sorta interesting and brings to light some stuff about people I otherwise wouldn't imagine.

Yeah, that's true.

[Leeness]

Aw, come on. How many comments do you need to realize people like you? You just have to get a bit more used to big social events and that's all. Why don't tell us a little more? I used to be the same and it's all a matter of changing your mind.

I think I may have some actual issues I need to sort out. I've had low self-esteem all my life, and I don't know if it's because I just haven't changed it yet, or if I'm actually crazy. :/ I'm not depressed, I don't think, because I'm a pretty cheery, outgoing person in general. I'm just hiding a really bad self concept beneath it.

I dunno, I dunno.

Lissar, I don't know if it's because I don't know how to use that site yet, but it didn't have my size when I searched! Nooooooooo.

[Professor Beef]

I think I may have some actual issues I need to sort out. I've had low self-esteem all my life, and I don't know if it's because I just haven't changed it yet, or if I'm actually crazy. :/ I'm not depressed, I don't think, because I'm a pretty cheery, outgoing person in general. I'm just hiding a really bad self concept beneath it. I dunno, I dunno.

Stick with your friends. I know this from experience. It took several years to get out of my self-confidence funk, but boy do they work wonders, even if you don't share everything with them.

[JokerOfSpades]

Thanks, Anti

[Lissar]

Lissar, I don't know if it's because I don't know how to use that site yet, but it didn't have my size when I searched! Nooooooooo.

It seems they have all the sizes around your size, but not your size. :x Maybe if you put in your measurements and search? The site works by people putting the exact measurement of a bra into the info and then people reviewing it. If someone with similar measurements to you says the bra doesn't fit them, the site will tell you that. A lot of bras I clicked on that I thought were in my size range would either say the cup is too small/large for me or the band was too tight or loose. So if you put in your measurements it will recommend you some bras to try, even if it isn't in the exact size you thought it would be.

[Mumei]

Hi, girl-gaf~

I thought about saying hello earlier, but I didn't want to do it during the initial phases of the topic and then I sort of forgot all about it! I've read / skimmed parts of the thread and it's been very amusing (and occasionally educational / disturbing (that picture of the foot in the heel whyyyy).

And hello in particular to some of my favorite posters: Devo, Satch, icarus-daedelus, and omg.kittens (I got around to reading a bell hooks book, by the way. Granted it was a basically "Feminism for dummies" but still).

How are all of you? Read anything good recently?

[Devolution]

Hey there. Well you know what I read recently from your recommendation ;D.

[DY_nasty]

Soooooo... my little sister

I've always been the one to let her live her own life and figure out things on her own. Her mom thinks that 99% of everything past the mailbox will turn her into a doped up teen mom and my dad prays to the Egyptian gods each day hoping she'll be a lesbian. That leaves me to actually help her figure shit out. So far I've been really lucky as she's been able to see bad situations and bad friends early... now I finally want to step in. To choke her boyfriend out.

That'd be wrong (and fun) but Id rather she figure this one out too. Its not your typical serial cheater athlete either. Its a scrawny nerd type that can't stop lying - she's always sticking up for him and playing the white knight. I'd love to go over the top and all, but she'd hate me for it (for a while). I just want to see her with someone on her level in some shape or form. Not some leech that requires protection.

Have any of you been in the situation where you're always sticking up for your boyfriend?

[Devolution]

I was excusing some of the stuff my Ex did while we were together and I wasn't too proud of it after the fact. If I were you I'd talk to her on the level and ask her why she's excusing such behavior. Is she pulling that "but he's not always like that" or "but the good outweighs the bad" crap?

[DY_nasty]

I was excusing some of the stuff my Ex did while we were together and I wasn't too proud of it after the fact. If I were you I'd talk to her on the level and ask her why she's excusing such behavior. Is she pulling that "but he's not always like that" or "but the good outweighs the bad" crap?

"You don't know him like I do"

I really can't stand users like him. I'd almost feel better if drugs were his reason.

[Devolution]

"You don't know him like I do" I really can't stand users like him. I'd almost feel better if drugs were his reason.

I'd level with her and say you do and he's manipulated her to the point at which she can't even talk about his behavior without making excuses. If you have to make excuses, then there is a problem.

[DY_nasty]

I'd level with her and say you do and he's manipulated her to the point at which she can't even talk about his behavior without making excuses. If you have to make excuses, then there is a problem.

That makes sense. But I'm talking to a 15 year old. And she swings the sword of the white knight like Joan of Arc.

I want to let her figure things out but its just such an odd situation.

[Devolution]

That makes sense. But I'm talking to a 15 year old. And she swings the sword of the white knight like Joan of Arc. I want to let her figure things out but its just such an odd situation.

You can only protect people from themselves up to a certain point. If it gets within the realm of you think he's abusing her more than mentally, I'd say scare him away.

[DY_nasty]

You can only protect people from themselves up to a certain point. If it gets within the realm of you think he's abusing her more than mentally, I'd say scare him away.

I guess what I'm asking is how does a relationship where the girl is the overprotective, do it all type work.

I know how bad it can get from the guy's version, but its not everyday you see a girl dealing with her boyfriend's fights.

[Devolution]

I guess what I'm asking is how does a relationship where the girl is the overprotective, do it all type work. I know how bad it can get from the guy's version, but its not everyday you see a girl dealing with her boyfriend's fights.

Whoa wait. She like defends him physically too? Or am I reading you wrong? Girls date scores of assholes in highschool though. It comes with the territory. Just about everyone is an insecure idiot.

[DY_nasty]

Whoa wait. She like defends him physically too? Or am I reading you wrong? Girls date scores of assholes in highschool though. It comes with the territory. Just about everyone is an insecure idiot.

yeah

She'd never fight over a guy in the typical sense. But this dude likes to lie about things that inspire other guys to kick his ass - and she has dragged his ass back one too many times.

[Devolution]

yeah She'd never fight over a guy in the typical sense. But this dude likes to lie about things that inspire other guys to kick his ass - and she has dragged his ass back one too many times.

Dude he's going to get her hurt.

[Emitan]

So he just lies about everything? I'm not asking you to get into specifics, but what kind of things is he saying?

Dude he's going to get her hurt.

Sounds like it.

[Femmeworth]

yeah She'd never fight over a guy in the typical sense. But this dude likes to lie about things that inspire other guys to kick his ass - and she has dragged his ass back one too many times.

Yeah, I think you need to step in.

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I think I may have some actual issues I need to sort out. I've had low self-esteem all my life, and I don't know if it's because I just haven't changed it yet, or if I'm actually crazy. :/ I'm not depressed, I don't think, because I'm a pretty cheery, outgoing person in general. I'm just hiding a really bad self concept beneath it. I dunno, I dunno.

Well you're too pretty. I'm going to go with the prediction that the type of guys who are normally attracted to your personality are just really shy or don't know how to approach you (read: you may have a unique personality that a lot of guys are not used to) . You may need to be more aggressive, like in an overt way. Not just making eyes and throwing your hair back which is what most girls do when they see a random guy they like. Because that would be too scary for most guys that are initially confused by your personality.

Maybe online dating will make this easier for you to try this out? I've been thinking about doing that for this reason as my flirting attempts are second to none on failure rate. Granted, I have the male perspective on this so maybe my advice is totally wrong and makes it worse but I'm just trying to be helpful.

[DY_nasty]

I like letting her figure things out for herself. But yeah... its just such a weird relationship. I don't know if it'd be something that would repeat itself. If it is, I'd rather she get it out of her system now while everything is small time and manageable.

I'll probably end up showing up in this kid's driveway anyways.

So he just lies about everything? I'm not asking you to get into specifics, but what kind of things is he saying?

ran his mouth about some girl that was never his ex - the girl's boyfriend has a legit reason to kick his ass. My sister knows this.

He acts as tutor after school. He likes to talk shit about the people he helps. They have a legit reason to kick his ass. My sister knows this too.

He likes to pretend he's a drug dealer... so on

She feels sorry for him. Its just weird. I didn't think you could make a relationship founded on pity.

[Professor Beef]

He acts as tutor after school. He likes to talk shit about the people he helps. They have a legit reason to kick his ass. My sister knows this too.

What the fucking fuck. Why hasn't someone chokeslammed him yet

[DY_nasty]

What the fucking fuck. Why hasn't someone chokeslammed him yet

They have.

[Emitan]

They have.

Deserved it.

[Devolution]

They have.

She's going to be a victim of his stupidity if she hasn't already. Have you tried getting another woman to approach her?

[DY_nasty]

She's going to be a victim of his stupidity if she hasn't already. Have you tried getting another woman to approach her?

I got a cousin to talk to her and she got the same response I did just worse.

"If I don't look out for him who will?" Etc

[Devolution]

I got a cousin to talk to her and she got the same response I did just worse. "If I don't look out for him who will?" Etc

Stupid 15 year olds. Just be there for her when the inevitable happens.

[Femmeworth]

I got a cousin to talk to her and she got the same response I did just worse. "If I don't look out for him who will?" Etc

If she cares so much, why doesn't she slap some sense into him? *shakes head* She'll learn one way or another.

[BladeWorker]

She feels sorry for him. Its just weird. I didn't think you could make a relationship founded on pity.

So far from what you've said she's a smart girl blinded by an attraction. What she's basing her attraction on is probably beyond us, but nonetheless...

Honour her independence and smarts by supporting her decisions, but asking questions that will get her thinking about - not defending - her actions.

Where does she see this relationship going? Is she really into this guy, does she think he'll change for her? Is spending her energy saving him is good for the relationship - or for her?

What makes her feel like she has to defend someone who makes trouble for himself?

Asking her questions - just in an inquisitive, rather than interrogatory fashion - might get her to think about how much she really wants this messy drama in her life. If she really does want the drama, if she really wants to feel like she's saving someone, then there's something else at work. But if she's doing something out of some misguided sense of what is right and what you do for people you care about...she'll figure out that sometimes, mental energy is best preserved for those who can reciprocate.

Putting her in a position where she feels she has to defend the guy puts you in the same place as all those other people attacking him (rightly or wrongly). Given your relationship with her, you might stand a fair shot at reaching out, rather than trying to pull her in.

But if hanging out with that dude winds up with her hurt? Call the cops on the asshole.

[DY_nasty]

So far from what you've said she's a smart girl blinded by an attraction. What she's basing her attraction on is probably beyond us, but nonetheless... Honour her independence and smarts by supporting her decisions, but asking questions that will get her thinking about - not defending - her actions. Where does she see this relationship going? Is she really into this guy, does she think he'll change for her? Is spending her energy saving him is good for the relationship - or for her? What makes her feel like she has to defend someone who makes trouble for himself? Asking her questions - just in an inquisitive, rather than interrogatory fashion - might get her to think about how much she really wants this messy drama in her life. If she really does want the drama, if she really wants to feel like she's saving someone, then there's something else at work. But if she's doing something out of some misguided sense of what is right and what you do for people you care about...she'll figure out that sometimes, mental energy is best preserved for those who can reciprocate. Putting her in a position where she feels she has to defend the guy puts you in the same place as all those other people attacking him (rightly or wrongly). Given your relationship with her, you might stand a fair shot at reaching out, rather than trying to pull her in. But if hanging out with that dude winds up with her hurt? Call the cops on the asshole.

I like this.

I just really, really hope that this doesn't turn into a trend for her.

[Mumei]

Hey there. Well you know what I read recently from your recommendation ;D.

Hey! I saw this post after you made it, but then I was reading about the rather unfortunate situation DY is trying to deal with and forgot to respond.

Anyway, Guyland really is a great book. When I was reading through the topic earlier, I saw your post talking about it and EviLore's suggestion that you make it into a topic.

And I do think you should also read that book I'm reading now called Sexual Harassment and Bullying: A Guide To Keeping Kids Safe and Holding Schools Accountable that I mentioned to you - and if nothing else the section in Chapter 9 called "The Root Cause: Patriarchy." I know you read part of it from the Amazon preview, but the whole five or six pages is the best explanation of what patriarchy is and how patriarchy is responsible for so many of the issues with sexual harassment, directed both towards boys and girls, that I've come across.

And in some ways it is actually striking seeing how some of the things the author talks about throughout in the book play out in interactions / discussions about issues of gender between men and women on the forum, in a similar way that when you read Guyland, you can see the first principle assumptions that some posters are making about gender roles or how they define masculinity at work in their posts.

[timetokill]

DY: Sounds like you gave her the chance to figure shit out, but she is too stuck in "high school girl" mode to look at the situation objectively. So you need to step in and deal with it.

My little sister went through a lot of this shit too. One ended with threats on our family that had to be handled with a restraining order. Just be careful about it getting out of hand. Those high school relationships can turn on a dime. Especially if she suddenly realizes she wants out, and decides to "let him down easy." He could flip his shit and get violent.

[The Anti-Monitor]

Well you're too pretty. I'm going to go with the prediction that the type of guys who are normally attracted to your personality are just really shy or don't know how to approach you (read: you may have a unique personality that a lot of guys are not used to) . You may need to be more aggressive, like in an overt way. Not just making eyes and throwing your hair back which is what most girls do when they see a random guy they like. Because that would be too scary for most guys that are initially confused by your personality. Maybe online dating will make this easier for you to try this out? I've been thinking about doing that for this reason as my flirting attempts are second to none on failure rate. Granted, I have the male perspective on this so maybe my advice is totally wrong and makes it worse but I'm just trying to be helpful.

Yeah, OKCupid would be a good place to start. Avoid POF like the plague though.

And DY, I think stepping in is the best approach. Don't have little sisters, but had friends that were like that.

[DY_nasty]

I've got a pretty bog extended family and most of the time I was the one playing big brother vs the douchebag. It just got really tiring to get one jerk out the picture and watch him be replaced with a perfect replica two months later.

I've got no issue jumping in. This is just such a weird dynamic... I'd rather it play out now, so that she can have the entire experience out of the way early when its just kids and high school than jump in and see this repeat itself when she's got a career to lose.

I've never seen a relationship like it. Just wondered if its really that rare or something that I've just been lucky enough not to encounter yet.

[Leeness]

Yeah, OKCupid would be a good place to start. Avoid POF like the plague though.

I tried eHarmony once (lol) and no one really cared to message me. So I stopped giving them money, haha.

DY, good luck with your sister. I hope she'll be okay. :(

[RawPower]

What's wrong with POF? I've actually heard GOOD things about that site. OKCupid? Not so much.

[The Anti-Monitor]

I tried eHarmony once (lol) and no one really cared to message me. So I stopped giving them money, haha. DY, good luck with your sister. I hope she'll be okay. :(

You had to pay?

I still would suggest OKcupid, at the very least as a mean to boost your confidence. And you can message people too you know :P

What's wrong with POF? I've actually heard GOOD things about that site. OKCupid? Not so much.

Sure, POF is good if you want to open a gallery of random guys' dicks and stand their manchildren needy attitude. Why didn't you message me, why do you ignore me, where are you, please reply, it's been 20 minutes since you last messaged me! And I found ridiculous it didn't seem to acknowledge bisexual people.

OKcupid is far from perfect, but at least someone put some thought into the page.