[Tesseract]

i'm saying that the elements of style is not in any way required reading for a writer. and pullum is absolutely correct in his criticism. but hey, he used a word you don't like, so please disregard his views.

glad we agree.

[LordCanti]

Ive toyed with the idea of taking up writing in the past, but all my best ideas come to me when im drunk off my ass, so its probably not a healthy avenue to go down

I get most of my ideas while I'm asleep after drinking. I roll over, write the dream down, and then resume sleeping.

Stylistic touches could influence how the story is received, you could take the story lovecraftian, maybe there's a reason why magic users are discriminated against? dark horrors that affront the senses would probably get you kicked out of your local bridge club. Of course at teh same time the difference of reaction between common folk and magic users can be used to draw a parallel between superstitious masses and scientific progress, wherein the sorcerors operate with order and structure and rules and delve into knowledge, locals react with superstition and ineffectual religious counsel(this is common in horror so....).

I like the system of magic in A Song of Ice and Fire. Since magic is gone from the world, the people still trying to practice it are seen as loonies, and the people that are somewhat successful are ostracized (namely Wargs). Once magic starts coming into the world again, the magicians are suddenly powerful and even respected, although still feared. I guess there's an element of religion there as well, since some religions don't recognize the magic practiced by the priests of different religions. The maesters, for all their knowledge, also consider magic to be a joke until it's too late.

[toythatkills]

oh wow, you have nothing to say. neat. you've never read the elements of style.

It's pretty silly to try selling someone on Elements of Style when you're writing with no regard for punctuation at all...

I like it, personally, it's a brilliant starting point but it shouldn't be taken to be a bible.

[Bennettt2]

Why not try reading books on how to make better narratives like the Writer's Journey, or Writing fiction: a guide to narrative craft. There's another book called something like "20 master plots and how to create them".

I'm actually in a course on fiction writing at the moment. I've never had this much fun studying before. Good luck to you.

[Rocwell]

Okay, I made some notes on stuff you can improve. I recommend you reread your stuff out loud so bits that don't read well or drag on for too long are more apparent and you don't glaze over anything. I read and re-read your sample a few times so obviously it was able to hold my interest. I think the stuff that happens is cool and interesting but the execution could be improved. I'm just trying to offer constructive criticism so don't be scared of the black ink! I just spent like an hour on this thing for your benefit :P

His mind jumped back to that evening now, without any encouragement. later on you say he was sitting in front of a fire, I think it would make sense that it might make him flash back to this episode He could almost smell the smoke emanating from the Vesper home Smell it emanating? You're kind of combining sight and smell here. To see it billowing out and then smell its smokey smokiness might be less confusing - almost hear the crunching of leaves underfoot as he emerged from the woods beside the village, to see the great ball of flames before him, the way you split this with the hyphen is bad punctuation. I think it's better if you just make it two sentences. He could smell blah. He could hear blah. the crowd of onlookers gawping and gasping, but doing nothing. gawping and gasping is just drawing attention to you the writer and distracting from the story, and the addition of "doing nothing" is redundant and unnecessary. The use of "and" and "but" over the next paragraph bugs me, I can't tell if you're doing it intentionally but it feels really repetitive and I don't like it here. And when he had broken through the gathering to get to the house, an explosion from within rocked the foundation Jesus are they cooking meth in there or something? Can you explain the explosion? A fire is already pretty dramatic, there's no need to go Michael Bay on us :P and the crowd jumped back in fear as the front door fell forward onto the front steps. And Leon remembered being so hopeful We already know this is a memory when a dark figure came forth from the smoky house. But his face had fallen when he saw that it was merely this is an important moment but "merely" makes it seem not so the remains of Hugo's son, Eliot, rolling forward from the house, charred black to the bone, on a rickety wheelchair. Cut out the black to the bone bit and put it with the part where you're describing the corpse. And does the wheelchair bit make sense for this world? Perhaps a little cart or wagon would be more fitting? Also, you're missing an opportunity for the guy to crawl out screaming and melting before your eyes in the most gruesome way possible. Plus there's the bit with the explosion, does it make sense for him to be in one piece? When the chair stopped dead in front of him, Leon had taken a long look at the eyeless corpse of the boy, eyeless corpse is bad, we already know he's dead, stare at his eyeless face/skull or his empty eye sockets the opened jaw exposing white teeth that stood out so starkly against his blackened face. "stood out starkly" is unnecessary since you've already got juxtaposition of black and white, you can phrase this differently The smoke was rising from his body, the wind blowing flakes of ashy skin off him. blowing away ashy flakes of skin? "off him" doesn't feel right. Leon shook his head vigorously to erase that memory from him, now. Really don't like "from him, now" try, "to erase the memory of that thing that happened?" He was still sitting on his couch, before a cozy fire. But his hands were shaking. Describe briefly where he is at the beginning and then just have him look away from the fire at the end here with his shaky hands. I also don't like the word "cozy" to describe the fire. I'm unsure about the "couch" too, it's a word that's too comfortable for the character's mindstate, and may not fit in with the world you're trying to create here. Aside from that I think it would be a cool detail if the fire had changed somehow to reflect the memory or if the memory burned away in the flames bringing him back to reality

You also need to be better about including paragraph breaks, this sample should be broken into three or more paragraphs.

That said, I like where you're going with it, you understand the basics of good story telling but you still need to learn the mechanics behind what makes for good writing. Don't forget to take advantage of opportunities to shock or surprise the reader and draw them further into your world. Also be aware of what kind of rules and limitations you've imposed on your characters and the world you create for them. You can break the rules but you should probably make a big deal about it when you do or it might look lazy.

[John Dunbar]

the "don't start sentences with and" rule isn't really based on anything logical, and pretty much all writers of fiction ignore it. i can see how someone could argue you should only use it in special occasions to draw attention to something, but no one really cares anymore.

[Rocwell]

the "don't start sentences with and" rule isn't really based on anything logical, and pretty much all writers of fiction ignore it. i can see how someone could argue you should only use it in special occasions to draw attention to something, but no one really cares anymore.

I don't think it added anything. If it's not adding anything you can do without it.

[John Dunbar]

I don't think it added anything. If it's not adding anything you can do without it.

i agree, in this case the sentence could have just as well started with "when", though i don't think the "and" was particularly out of place, but i just wanted to clarify a bit since you made it sound like a definite rule.

[Rocwell]

i agree, in this case the sentence could have just as well started with "when", though i don't think the "and" was particularly out of place, but i just wanted to clarify a bit since you made it sound like a definite rule.

Well I was drawing attention to it since he was falling into the "And then.. and then... And then" repetition which gets old REALLY fast. To me at least. And I have no problem with people breaking the rules, but I think you need to be aware of where and when you do it.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

the "don't start sentences with and" rule isn't really based on anything logical, and pretty much all writers of fiction ignore it. i can see how someone could argue you should only use it in special occasions to draw attention to something, but no one really cares anymore.

The word 'And' continues something, it's logical not to start a sentence with it.


It's fine in dialogue however. IE

"You killed my parents!"

"And?"

[toythatkills]

Well I was drawing attention to it since he was falling into the "And then.. and then... And then" repetition which gets old REALLY fast. To me at least. And I have no problem with people breaking the rules, but I think you need to be aware of where and when you do it.

This was my point, it's okay breaking the rules but that very short paragraph does it so often that it appears that the writer just doesn't know the rules, and that's a very different thing. Even if it was intentional, it doesn't have the appearance of it. That has to be avoided.

I would argue against someone who says that the rule is "not based on anything logical," because it makes perfect sense to me. A new sentence is a new thought. And if you start a sentence with "and" you're actually just continuing the previous thought. And so it should really be separated by a comma at worst. Any use of "and" at the start of a sentence is a stylistic choice, and should not be seen as "correct" because the writer will be well aware that it is not.

[Tim the Wiz]

The word 'And' continues something, it's logical not to start a sentence with it.

Someone should tell Roberto Bolano (RIP) that. I seem to remember a passage with over a dozen sentences sequentially starting with "And" in 2666. But, y'know, logic. This is essentially a semantic debate, but the rub is that fiction is an aesthetic pursuit and style has few boundaries. The challenge is to labour under that mission in an effective and accessible way. My understanding, anyway.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Someone should tell Roberto Bolano (RIP) that. I seem to remember a passage with over a dozen sentences sequentially starting with "And" in 2666. But, y'know, logic.

Could you post an excerpt? (I'm not being dickish I would love to see the use of it.)

[John Dunbar]

Someone should tell Roberto Bolano (RIP) that. I seem to remember a passage with over a dozen sentences sequentially starting with "And" in 2666. But, y'know, logic.

I can't think of a good fiction writer who doesn't start sentences with an "And". In academic writing I can see why it should be used sparingly, but in fiction it's very useful.

[John Dunbar]

Could you post an excerpt? (I'm not being dickish I would love to see the use of it.)

Not Bolano, but will James Joyce do?

And whiles they spake the door of the castle was opened and there nighed them a mickle noise as of many that sat there at meat. And there came against the place as they stood a young learningknight yclept Dixon. And the traveller Leopold was couth to him sithen it had happed that they had had ado each with other in the house of misericord where this learningknight lay by cause the traveller Leopold came there to be healed for he was sore wounded in his breast by a spear wherewith a horrible and dreadful dragon was smitten him for which he did do make a salve of volatile salt and chrism as much as he might suffice. And he said now that he should go in to that castle for to make merry with them that were there. And the traveller Leopold said that he should go otherwhither for he was a man of cautels and a subtile. Also the lady was of his avis and repreved the learningknight though she trowed well that the traveller had said thing that was false for his subtility. But the learningknight would not hear say nay nor do her mandement ne have him in aught contrarious to his list and he said how it was a marvellous castle. And the traveller Leopold went into the castle for to rest him for a space being sore of limb after many marches environing in divers lands and sometime venery. And in the castle was set a board that was of the birchwood of Finlandy and it was upheld by four dwarfmen of that country but they durst not move more for enchantment. And on this board were frightful swords and knives that are made in a great cavern by swinking demons out of white flames that they fix then in the horns of buffalos and stags that there abound marvellously. And there were vessels that are wrought by magic of Mahound out of seasand and the air by a warlock with his breath that he blases in to them like to bubbles. And full fair cheer and rich was on the board that no wight could devise a fuller ne richer. And there was a vat of silver that was moved by craft to open in the which lay strange fishes withouten heads though misbelieving men nie that this be possible thing without they see it natheless they are so. And these fishes lie in an oily water brought there from Portugal land because of the fatness that therein is like to the juices of the olivepress. And also it was a marvel to see in that castle how by magic they make a compost out of fecund wheatkidneys out of Chaldee that by aid of certain angry spirits that they do in to it swells up wondrously like to a vast mountain. And they teach the serpents there to entwine themselves up on long sticks out of the ground and of the scales of these serpents they brew out a brewage like to mead. And the learning knight let pour for childe Leopold a draught and halp thereto the while all they that were there drank every each. And childe Leopold did up his beaver for to pleasure him and took apertly somewhat in amity for he never drank no manner of mead which he then put by and anon full privily he voided the more part in his neighbour glass and his neighbour nist not of this wile. And he sat down in that castle with them for to rest him there awhile. Thanked be Almighty God.

Of course this is not exactly what we're talking about here, since Joyce obviously knows what he's doing.

[toythatkills]

Someone should tell Roberto Bolano (RIP) that. I seem to remember a passage with over a dozen sentences sequentially starting with "And" in 2666. But, y'know, logic. This is essentially a semantic debate, but the rub is that fiction is an aesthetic pursuit and style has few boundaries. The challenge is to labour under that mission in an effective and accessible way.

Like I said, that's a stylistic choice. Starting a sentence with "and" is wrong, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if it adds something to the text. That doesn't make it right, but it's still valid.

There aren't many occasions on which it adds something to the text, but I imagine that 2666 is one of them. As is Joyce. It's the same as the way Saramago didn't use quote marks in Blindness. I mean, that's obviously wrong but it puts you in the position of the blind characters, never quite sure who is talking, and so it absolutely works from a style point of view. That doesn't make it right, but it's still absolutely valid for that book.

[Tim the Wiz]

Could you post an excerpt? (I'm not being dickish I would love to see the use of it.)

Page 221 in my Picador edition. A sequence of ten sentences, actually. It reads quite well as a little run of the character's stream of thought.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Not Bolano, but will James Joyce do? Of course this is not exactly what we're talking about here, since Joyce obviously knows what he's doing.

Dude needs to learn about commas.

[John Dunbar]

Dude needs to learn about commas.

Obviously that was a pretty extreme example, but here's "normal" sentences from Vladimir Nabokov (The Potato Elf)

And the dwarf's little palms were clammy, and you're making it all up, reflected Nora in brackets.

A mistake, no doubt. And then he heard distinctly the sound of approaching steps.

And instantly, from God knows where, more boys appeared, and with gaping stealthiness started to follow the dwarf.

The first one could clearly be interpreted as a type of dialogue, but I think it's pretty clear how "and" can be used to start a sentence in creative writing. But really, as I said, I can't think of a good writer who doesn't do it. Or a bad one.

And I don't agree that it's "wrong".

[Tim the Wiz]

Like I said, that's a stylistic choice. Starting a sentence with "and" is wrong, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if it adds something to the text. That doesn't make it right, but it's still valid. There aren't many occasions on which it adds something to the text, but I imagine that 2666 is one of them. As is Joyce. It's the same as the way Saramago didn't use quote marks in Blindness. I mean, that's obviously wrong but it puts you in the position of the blind characters, never quite sure who is talking, and so it absolutely works from a style point of view. That doesn't make it right, but it's still absolutely valid for that book.

I find your framework of there being things which are "right" and "wrong" to be quite peculiar, though. Both in the spirit of endeavouring to create a piece of fiction and even in viewing language as a whole. For one, there's no binary term of right or wrong in the service of aesthetic. And, from a larger perspective, the regulation of common spelling and grammar is simply arbitrary convention. The rules of grammar themselves are not codified elements of logic; the use of language is a naturally occurring phenomena which shifts and changes with time - look at the amount of words Shakespeare "invented". Post-modernism isn't something new, it's just an evolution of form: a reaction to the weight of canon in the same way Shakespeare reacted to the sparsity of naturalism which preceded him.

That's not to say that there aren't "rules" for making yourself be effectively and accessibly heard. There's nothing wrong with following them. I know my own clarity suffers when I don't, primarily out of sheer laziness. However, the more honest categorization of them would be as "guidelines you should probably follow" rather than "indications of objective right and wrong".

[toythatkills]

And I don't agree that it's "wrong".

How can it be "right?" Just saying you don't agree with it doesn't really mean anything =P

It makes no sense to do it, grammatically, there's no way it can be "right." It's certainly not wrong if a writer wants to use it, but they will know when they're doing it that it is 100% definitely an incorrect use.

I find your framework of there being things which are "right" and "wrong" to be quite peculiar, though. Both in the spirit of endeavouring to create a piece of fiction and even in viewing language as a whole. For one, there's no binary term of right or wrong in the service of aesthetic. And, from a larger perspective, the regulation of common spelling and grammar is simply arbitrary convention. The rules of grammar themselves are not codified elements of logic; the use of language is a naturally occurring phenomena which shifts and changes with time - look at the amount of words Shakespeare "invented". Post-modernism isn't something new, it's just an evolution of form: a reaction to the weight of canon in the same way Shakespeare reacted to the sparsity of naturalism which preceded him. That's not to say that there aren't "rules" for making yourself be effectively and accessibly heard. There's nothing wrong with following them. I know my own clarity suffers when I don't, primarily out of sheer laziness. However, the more honest categorization of them would be as "guidelines you should probably follow" rather than "indicators of objective right and wrong".

Grammar and punctuation has rules, that's just a fact. They evolve but we can only work with what we have at the time and that makes certain things wrong and certain things right.

Those rules are absolutely there to be broken in the name of art and style and I have nothing against that at all, of course I don't, but the rules definitely exist and I can't really understand an argument that they don't. It's about what you do with the rules, that's what matters. To be honest, I think we probably agree with one another really, we're just coming at it from different angles!

[Rocwell]

Ok I edited my post regarding starting sentences with "And". And I still don't think the OP's sample is an acceptable example of how to do so.

[John Dunbar]

How can it be "right?" Just saying you don't agree with it doesn't really mean anything =P It makes no sense to do it, grammatically, there's no way it can be "right." It's certainly not wrong if a writer wants to use it, but they will know when they're doing it that it is 100% definitely an incorrect use.

This might lead to a prescriptive/descriptive debate, but I maintain that grammar's purpose is to describe the use of language, not tell you how you can use it. And at this point the use of And at the beginning of a sentence, as far as I'm concerned, has become widespread enough to throw out any silly rules that say it's wrong. Language is a living, evolving thing, and I believe it has shed this restriction.

[toythatkills]

This might lead to a prescriptive/descriptive debate, but I maintain that grammar's purpose is to describe the use of language, not tell you how you can use it. And at this point the use of And at the beginning of a sentence, as far as I'm concerned, has become widespread enough to throw out any silly rules that say it's wrong.

Yeah, that opens up a whole other debate that we should avoid =P

If enough greengrocers have signs that say "Apple's 99p" does that make it okay? If enough people say "could of" instead of "could have" does that make it okay?

We should definitely leave that one well alone, I think!

[Tim the Wiz]

Ha, yes. The prescriptivism vs descriptivism battle is an old one in linguistics. I don't think we're going to settle it on a video game forum. ;)

[Rocwell]

Yeah, that opens up a whole other debate that we should avoid =P If enough greengrocers have signs that say "Apple's 99p" does that make it right? If enough people say "could of" instead of "could have" does that make it right? We should definitely leave that one well alone, I think!

God I hate unnecessary apostrophes... I cringe every time I walk past the "Employee's Only" sign at work.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Ha, yes. The prescriptivism vs descriptivism battle is an old one in linguistics. I don't think we're going to settle it on a video game forum. ;)

And yet we will try.

[Bombadil]

My greatest moments of truth and beauty most often come while listening to music. From a scene, a character or an aesthetic I can extrapolate a plot, other characters, themes, etc. But hey, that's just me. Stylistic touches could influence how the story is received, you could take the story lovecraftian, maybe there's a reason why magic users are discriminated against? dark horrors that affront the senses would probably get you kicked out of your local bridge club. Of course at teh same time the difference of reaction between common folk and magic users can be used to draw a parallel between superstitious masses and scientific progress, wherein the sorcerors operate with order and structure and rules and delve into knowledge, locals react with superstition and ineffectual religious counsel(this is common in horror so....).

I've tried that as well. I imagine scenes while listening to classical music. I think I can create scenes with action and tension better than I can create scenes with levity and calm conversation. I want to include more dialogue (Tarantino fan) and I don't know what to listen to in order to do that.

The only Lovecraft story I've read that didn't bore me was The Thing On The Doorstep

Why not try reading books on how to make better narratives like the Writer's Journey, or Writing fiction: a guide to narrative craft. There's another book called something like "20 master plots and how to create them". I'm actually in a course on fiction writing at the moment. I've never had this much fun studying before. Good luck to you.

I've seen those at the library. I've shied away from reading technical books on writing because I've always felt that it would make my writing appear to mechanical rather than natural and original.

Okay, I made some notes on stuff you can improve. I recommend you reread your stuff out loud so bits that don't read well or drag on for too long are more apparent and you don't glaze over anything. I read and re-read your sample a few times so obviously it was able to hold my interest. I think the stuff that happens is cool and interesting but the execution could be improved. I'm just trying to offer constructive criticism so don't be scared of the black ink! I just spent like an hour on this thing for your benefit :P You also need to be better about including paragraph breaks, this sample should be broken into three or more paragraphs. That said, I like where you're going with it, you understand the basics of good story telling but you still need to learn the mechanics behind what makes for good writing. Don't forget to take advantage of opportunities to shock or surprise the reader and draw them further into your world. Also be aware of what kind of rules and limitations you've imposed on your characters and the world you create for them. You can break the rules but you should probably make a big deal about it when you do or it might look lazy.

I wrote that excerpt in five minutes as part of the short story due tomorrow. I agree, it's not very well written.

Ok I edited my post regarding starting sentences with "And". And I still don't think the OP's sample is an acceptable example of how to do so.

I've acquired the habit of beginning my sentences with "and" from reading The Iliad. At least, I think that's where I got it from. It's easily corrected in post-editing. I'm impressed by how many posts dealt with that topic.


I should add some more details here if anyone's interested:

1) The story takes place between the 1930s and 2015.
2) The setting jumps between fictional islands off the coast of Ireland (inspired by Father Ted), Iceland, the Arctic Ocean, London, Berlin, and possibly the US (though I don't like setting anything in the US).
3) There is more than one villain. The villain who is seeking godhood was born a cripple with leprosy (the leprosy part is subject to change). His father was a powerful wizard appointed by the government to settle disputes involving magical persons and entities. But he, the villain, possessed no magical ability and was denied admission to schools of magical learning.
4) The main protagonist was an acquaintance/friend of his at a non-magical school.
5) Magic is rare because ancient textbooks on magic, called grimoires, have been lost over time, and the government discourages the use of magic.
6) Technology has advanced to such a point that magic has lost almost all advantages.
7) Jumping a little forward in time, the government no longer seeks to employ any wizards to settle disputes because superior firepower works just as well.


I could list a lot more but I don't want to spoil it, and I'm afraid some clever Gaffer will steal my story.

Of course this is not exactly what we're talking about here, since Joyce obviously knows what he's doing.

Ouch.

[jaxword]

Here's a short story Terry Pratchett wrote, freely available online. It's an example of his writing style.


Death and What Comes Next
A Discworld short story
By Terry Pratchett

Copyright © Terry Pratchett 2002


When Death met the philosopher, the philosopher said, rather excitedly: "At this point, you realise, I'm both dead and not dead."

There was a sigh from Death. Oh dear, one of those, he thought. This is going to be about quantum again. He hated dealing with philosophers. They always tried to wriggle out of it.

"You see," said the philosopher, while Death, motionless, watched the sands of his life drain through the hourglass, "everything is made of tiny particles, which have the strange property of being in many places at one time. But things made of tiny particles tend to stay in one place at one time, which does not seem right according to quantum theory. May I continue?"

YES, BUT NOT INDEFINITELY, said Death, EVERYTHING IS TRANSIENT. He did not take his gaze away from the tumbling sand.

"Well, then, if we agreed that there are an infinite number of universes, then the problem is solved! If there are an unlimited number of universes, this bed can be in millions of them, all at the same time!"

DOES IT MOVE?

"What?

Death nodded at the bed. CAN YOU FEEL IT MOVING? he said.

"No, because there are a million versions of me, too, And...here is the good bit ...in some of them I am not about to pass away! Anything is possible!"

Death tapped the handle of his scythe as he considered this.

AND YOUR POINT IS...?

"Well, I'm not exactly dying, correct? You are no longer such a certainty."

There was a sigh from Death. Space he thought. That was the trouble. It was never like this on worlds with everlastingly cloudy skies. But once humans saw all that space, their brains expanded to try and fill it up.

"No answer, eh?" said the dying philosopher. "Feel a bit old-fashioned, do we?"

THIS IS A CONUNDRUM CERTAINLY, said Death. Once they prayed, he thought. Mind you, he'd never been sure that prayer worked, either. He thought for a while. AND I SHALL ANSWER IT IN THIS MANNER, he added. YOU LOVE YOUR WIFE?

"What?"

THE LADY WHO HAS BEEN LOOKING AFTER YOU. YOU LOVE HER?

"Yes. Of course."

CAN YOU THINK OF ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE, WITHOUT YOUR PERSONAL HISTORY CHANGING IN ANY WAY YOU WOULD AT THIS MOMENT PICK UP A KNIFE AND STAB HER? said Death. FOR EXAMPLE?

"Certainly not!"

BUT YOUR THEORY SAYS THAT YOU MUST. IT IS EASILY POSSIBLE WITHIN THE PHYSICAL LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE, AND THEREFORE MUST HAPPEN, AND HAPPEN MANY TIMES. EVERY MOMENT IS A BILLION, BILLION MOMENTS, AND IN THOSE MOMENTS ALL THINGS THAT ARE POSSIBLE ARE INEVITABLE. ALL TIME SOONER OR LATER, BOILS DOWN TO A MOMENT.

"But of course we can make choices between-"

ARE THERE CHOICES? EVERYTHING THAT CAN HAPPEN, MUST HAPPEN. YOUR THEORY SAYS THAT FOR EVERY UNIVERSE THAT'S FORMED TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR 'NO', THERE MUST BE ONE TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR 'YES'. BUT YOU SAID YOU WOULD NEVER COMMIT MURDER. THE FABRIC OF THE COSMOS TREMBLES BEFORE YOUR TERRIBLE CERTAINTY. YOUR MORALITY BECOMES A FORCE AS STRONG AS GRAVITY. And, thought Death, space certainly has a lot to answer for.

"Was that sarcasm?"

ACTUALLY, NO. I AM IMPRESSED AND INTRIGUED, said Death. THE CONCEPT YOU PUT BEFORE ME PROVES THE EXISTENCE OF TWO HITHERTO MYTHICAL PLACES. SOMEWHERE, THERE IS A WORLD WHERE EVERYONE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE, THE MORAL CHOICE, THE CHOICE THAT MAXIMISED THE HAPPINESS OF THEIR FELLOW CREATURES, OF COURSE, THAT ALSO MEANS THAT SOMEWHERE ELSE IS THE SMOKING REMNANT OF THE WORLD WHERE THEY DID NOT ...

"Oh, come on! I know what you're implying, and I've never believed in any of that Heaven and Hell nonsense!"

The room was growing darker. The blue gleam along the edge of the reaper's scythe was becoming more obvious.

ASTONISHING, said Death. REALLY ASTONISHING. LET ME PUT FORWARD ANOTHER SUGGESTION: THAT YOU ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A LUCKY SPECIES OF APE THAT IS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEXITIES OF CREATION VIA A LANGUAGE THAT EVOLVED IN ORDER TO TELL ONE ANOTHER WHERE THE RIPE FRUIT WAS?

Fighting for breath, the philosopher managed to say: "Don't be silly."

THE REMARK WAS NOT INTENDED AS DEROGATORY, said Death. UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, YOU HAVE ACHIEVED A GREAT DEAL.

"We've certainly escaped from outmoded superstitions!"

WELL DONE, said Death. THAT'S THE SPIRIT. I JUST WANTED TO CHECK.

He leaned forward.

AND ARE YOU AWARE OF THE THEORY THAT THE STATE OF SOME TINY PARTICLES IS INDETERMINATE UNTIL THE MOMENT THEY ARE OBSERVED? A CAT IN A BOX IS OFTEN MENTIONED.

"Oh, yes," said the philosopher.

GOOD, said Death. He got to his feet as the last of the light died, and smiled.

I SEE YOU...

[blainethemono]

I dont know if this will help your specific situation, but I highly recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/The-War-Art-Th.../dp/0446691437

http://www.bigbencomedy.com/blog/arc...of-art-quotes/

“The most important thing about art is to work. Nothing else matters except sitting down every day and trying.”

“To labor in the arts for any reason other than love is prostitution.”

To sum it up, we are entitled to our labor, not the fruits of our labor. Just keep doing what you're doing and don't stop. A good reminder, especially when you are confronted with failure from your creative endeavors. You have no control over what happens after you send it out into the world.

[Haly]

I would suggest exposing yourself to many different styles of writing in order to dilute the influence of HP.

And read more modern stuff, unless you want to end up writing an epic in the saga style.

Also I forgot where I read this but I recall one author saying that when they get down to writing something new, they try to avoid reading any sort of fiction related to whatever they're writing, because the stuff they read might bleed into their story. So if you're writing a story about kids learning magic, don't read other books about kids learning magic.

[arbok26]

its not a big deal that its very similar - there's nothing truly original in the world anyway.

and if you've been planning it for 8 years i wouldnt change a thing - im sure its good

[Bombadil]

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions.

I'm going to invest my summer in working on writing.

[Margalis]

OP I suggest you two good books on writing:

The First Five Pages
Self-editing for Fiction Writers

They talk about a lot of the stuff in this thread, like adverbs, trying to find words to substitute for "said", etc.

[toythatkills]

OP I suggest you two good books on writing: The First Five Pages Self-editing for Fiction Writers They talk about a lot of the stuff in this thread, like adverbs, trying to find words to substitute for "said", etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with said, and when someone goes all out to use something else at any cost it often sounds weird and forced.

"I told you so," she laughed.
"Yeah, whatever," he spat.
"Don't be like that," she roared.

I mean, what does that even mean? Is he spitting while he's talking? How is he doing them at the same time? Is she really roaring? What is she, insane?

"Readers pay such little attention to 'said', it effectively becomes invisible," that's exactly how it should be. The dialogue is the key and anything that takes away from that is surely adversely affecting the book. "Shouted" here and there or "whispered" now and then are probably okay, but if you're littering your text with meaningless words just to substitute anything at all in place of 'said' it's going to read pretty badly.

Hopefully that book carries the same advice.

[Margalis]

I don't think there's anything wrong with said, and when someone goes all out to use something else at any cost it often sounds weird and forced. "I told you so," she laughed. "Yeah, whatever," he spat. "Don't be like that," she roared. ... Hopefully that book carries the same advice.

It does. (It's two different books though)

Trying to come up with alternatives for "said" is a classic noob trap. I remember doing that myself when I started writing. Most writers try to avoid using the same word a lot, and "said" is so common that it's tempting to come up with a million alternatives. But if you read a book with a lot of dialog you'll usually see a lot of it. The repetition is much more noticeable as the writer than as a reader.

By the way OP, the books I mention will not force you into a box, they just give you some awareness of basic classic mistakes.

"The First Five Pages" is centered around the idea that an editor is looking to reject a submission in the first five pages and can quickly tell that something is not worth reading.

[Mike Works]

Ha, yes. The prescriptivism vs descriptivism battle is an old one in linguistics. I don't think we're going to settle it on a video game forum. ;)

SMASH BROTHERS TOURNAMENT TO SETTLE THE BATTLE BETWEEN PRESCRIPTIVISM VS DESCRIPTIVISM

[Tashbrooke]

You think Harry Potter is the first magical child of destiny? Just write it out and let others decide.

i agree with this

[Dresden]

OP I suggest you two good books on writing: The First Five Pages Self-editing for Fiction Writers They talk about a lot of the stuff in this thread, like adverbs, trying to find words to substitute for "said", etc.

And Elmore Leonard said, only write said, all the other shit is worthless.

There's a lot of contradictory tips out there which speaks to how good writing is ultimately going to be rather unquantifiable outside of the really objective merits (grammar, punctuation, etc), and even then you'll have writers who don't adhere to such standards and succeed. All I can say is, write and read and masturbate a lot.

[Haly]

Actually, one thing I wanted to mention was that you shouldn't get too hung up on reading other stuff, because it's just less time that could be spent on writing.

[toythatkills]

Actually, one thing I wanted to mention was that you shouldn't get too hung up on reading other stuff, because it's just less time that could be spent on writing.

Seriously?

[Monocle]

Actually, one thing I wanted to mention was that you shouldn't get too hung up on reading other stuff, because it's just less time that could be spent on writing.

Creativity is drawn from your personal well of ideas. You'll find that the quality of its waters depends on how you've filled it. Every aspiring writer should read constantly in order to keep the ideas fresh. You have to prevent the well from growing stale if you want to be able to say anything worthwhile. It's very important.

[jaxword]

You guys should really read that short story above...it's good stuff.

[Tim the Wiz]

Actually, one thing I wanted to mention was that you shouldn't get too hung up on reading other stuff, because it's just less time that could be spent on writing.

lolno

[Bombadil]

You guys should really read that short story above...it's good stuff.

I read it. It was excellent, especially the last line. Thanks for the post.